Israel declares war

[mikbone]

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/al-aqsa-storm-militants-infiltrate-israel-after-gaza-rockets-10-07-intl-hnk/index.html

Not alot of love between these opponents.  I was on one news site and just reviewed a few of the comments.  So much hate, and vitriol.  

Religious war is such a misnomer.  Only one religious leader that I know deals in enmity. 

[mikbone]

It’s worse than Texas vs. OU

BTW check out these records.

BYU vs Texas  2:1

BYU vs OU      2:0

Edited October 7, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

I wouldn't call it "Israel declares war".  I'd call it "Israel is under coordinated attack by Hamas, who has launched ~3000 missiles and conducted open insurgent attacks on multiple cities and areas all at once, with some reports claiming the insurgents have taken prisoners"

Recognizing that these actions mean you are in a state of war, is slightly different than Israel declaring war.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/292301566945218

[mikbone]

Biden just promised his full support to Israel…  After having just released $6B in frozen funds to Iran.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-ready-offer-israel-support-after-attacks-biden-2023-10-07/

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Biden just promised his full support to Israel…  After having just released $6B in frozen funds to Iran.

Well, someone has to fund Armageddon...

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

Well, someone has to fund Armageddon...

I have attempted to follow the symbolism given in scripture prophesy concerning Armageddon and the final conflict in the last days.  According to the prophesy – the key to the Armageddon conflict is Gog and Magog.  Gog is a land and Magog was the king or ruler of the land of Gog.  The symbolism obviously has something to do with the evil of Magog and the exploits of this evil individual(s) causing great conflict.

The land of Gog is the land between the Black Sea and the Caspen Sea which is mostly controlled by Russia.   Somehow there has to be a treaty that will turn the direction of conflict towards Israel (Jerusalem).   Between Russia and Iran, the land of Gog does come into current focus.  Before the attack on Israel, I could not see how this could come about but now suddenly it does look possible that conflicts are connected through the treaty between Russia and Iran.  According to the prophesy other nations will join in on the treaty.

Does this fit the prophesy?  For all the conflict (war) I have followed since the Civil War (and how the conflicts of the last days will take on the flavors of the Civil war - what we now call war crimes) – this look the most like ancient prophesy – especially in how civilians and nonmilitary resources are targeted.

I am not willing to say anything at this point – I would suspect that we would have some indications from our modern prophets that are called to deal with world conditions of these last days.  The only recommendation I have – is if someone has a trip planned to the Holy Land – you may want to reconsider.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

 According to the prophesy – the key to the Armageddon conflict is Gog and Magog.  Gog is a land and Magog was the king or ruler of the land of Gog.  

I believe you have that backwards.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

We do not need to be involved in this war. Israel can handle it themselves. But, I do stand for Israel.

[Traveler]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:50 PM, Carborendum said:

I believe you have that backwards.

You are correct -- thanks for your correction.  Gog is the king of Magog.

[Traveler]

One of the big questions coming out of the current conflict in Israel is how did the military intelligence fail and not see this coming?  Not just the intelligence of Israel but that the USA had not idea either?  Perhaps I can provide some insights.  During my time in the military, I was attached to an army intelligence unit.

There are two parts of military intelligence.  The first part is the collection of information and data.  The second part is analysis of the data and information.  Thus, there are two possibilities for failure – First, the lack of or incorrectness of data and information or second, the failure to draw the correct conclusions in analyzing the data and information.

The USA has had many failures in recent history.  Both in collecting adequate data and information but I believe more so in analyzing the data and information correctly.   I became aware of intelligence failures concerning the Vietnam conflict during my time with army intelligence.  I was quite taken back because operational events demonstrated that well known elements of intelligence were being ignored – I believe strictly for political purposes.

I saw what I believed to be more failures during the Carter ministration when with the hostages taken in Iran.  Then the continuation of failures that brought us 9/11 and ignited the gulf war under the Bush administration.  Recently there have been critical failures from the sectary of Defense (General Lloyd Austin) and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of our military (General Milley).  First with the withdrawal of US assets in Afghanistan we were told that there would not be problems because Isis could not take over Afghanistan for months or years.  There were other breaches as well.  Then with the invasion of Ukraine where we were initially told that Russia would not invade (or was unlikely to invade) then we were told that Ukraine would fall within 72 hours to a week.  

Now we are being told that there was no intelligence indicating that Hamas would attack Israel.  I am concerned that we will discover that there was intelligence to the contrary but for whatever reason (likely political) was ignored or diminished.   I am also concerned that there is intelligence that critical terrorists’ risks are being birched at both our southern and northern borders.  Again (though I do not have access to secure information or data) I believe it possible that critical data and information is being set aside for political reasons.  I am also concerned that despite all the intelligence breaches and the severity of the breaches that no one is being relieved of duty and replaced.

These breaches come under both Republican and Democrat administrations.  I believe this is much more than a political party issue.  I am also concerned that in all the news services I only hear our new reporters blaming one political party or the other.  I am beginning to think this is by design.

 

The Traveler

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

One of the big questions coming out of the current conflict in Israel is how did the military intelligence fail and not see this coming?  Not just the intelligence of Israel but that the USA had not idea either?  Perhaps I can provide some insights.  During my time in the military, I was attached to an army intelligence unit.

There are two parts of military intelligence.  The first part is the collection of information and data.  The second part is analysis of the data and information.  Thus, there are two possibilities for failure – First, the lack of or incorrectness of data and information or second, the failure to draw the correct conclusions in analyzing the data and information.

The USA has had many failures in recent history.  Both in collecting adequate data and information but I believe more so in analyzing the data and information correctly.   I became aware of intelligence failures concerning the Vietnam conflict during my time with army intelligence.  I was quite taken back because operational events demonstrated that well known elements of intelligence were being ignored – I believe strictly for political purposes.

I saw what I believed to be more failures during the Carter ministration when with the hostages taken in Iran.  Then the continuation of failures that brought us 9/11 and ignited the gulf war under the Bush administration.  Recently there have been critical failures from the sectary of Defense (General Lloyd Austin) and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of our military (General Milley).  First with the withdrawal of US assets in Afghanistan we were told that there would not be problems because Isis could not take over Afghanistan for months or years.  There were other breaches as well.  Then with the invasion of Ukraine where we were initially told that Russia would not invade (or was unlikely to invade) then we were told that Ukraine would fall within 72 hours to a week.  

Now we are being told that there was no intelligence indicating that Hamas would attack Israel.  I am concerned that we will discover that there was intelligence to the contrary but for whatever reason (likely political) was ignored or diminished.   I am also concerned that there is intelligence that critical terrorists’ risks are being birched at both our southern and northern borders.  Again (though I do not have access to secure information or data) I believe it possible that critical data and information is being set aside for political reasons.  I am also concerned that despite all the intelligence breaches and the severity of the breaches that no one is being relieved of duty and replaced.

These breaches come under both Republican and Democrat administrations.  I believe this is much more than a political party issue.  I am also concerned that in all the news services I only hear our new reporters blaming one political party or the other.  I am beginning to think this is by design.

 

The Traveler

I have heard it argued, I do not agree with it, but I have heard that they may have allowed this to happen so they, the Arab world, can be justified in letting Israel solve the issue permanently. Many Arab leaders seem a little tired of the whole Hamas and Hezbollah issue and are ready to bring it to an end.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I personally do not think this is the run up to the final battle. I think this is the run up to an era of peace that will come before the final battle. We may still be a number of years off. But, regardless, I think we should be prepared for an era of sadness all over the world as these evil things happen.

[Traveler]

5 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I have heard it argued, I do not agree with it, but I have heard that they may have allowed this to happen so they, the Arab world, can be justified in letting Israel solve the issue permanently. Many Arab leaders seem a little tired of the whole Hamas and Hezbollah issue and are ready to bring it to an end.

This is speculation by someone that is most likely not giving or having any sources.  I believe it to be either false, a deliberate attempt misdirect or an extremely stupid response that will only result in confusing the most critical issues.  Even the most devout and “kind” Muslims I know believe the world would be better off if the Jews left Jerusalem and surrounding area and found somewhere else to live and practice their religion.  This is a problem because according to prophesy held by both Christians and Jews – something very important will take place in the last days involving Jerusalem.  Islam believes the opposite that what is important will involve them and not the Christians and Jews with the exceptions of those Christians and Jews that accept Muslem control of that area.  With this context it is likely that both sides will not reconcile without divine intervention. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

20 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I personally do not think this is the run up to the final battle. I think this is the run up to an era of peace that will come before the final battle. We may still be a number of years off. But, regardless, I think we should be prepared for an era of sadness all over the world as these evil things happen.

My opinion is that you are correct if shortly there is a cease fire and disbandment or at least a restructure of Hamas.  If conflict continues for the next 3½ years we will see a lot of even worse developments.  If this is the beginning of a protracted conflict and @prisonchaplain  is correct we will no longer seem him post on our forum – something to do with a rapture.

I have given up trying to guess but remain aware that this could be a prelude for quiet before the storm or the beginning of the storm.  What is being claimed to be taking place (especially with infants and children) looks to be a change unlikely to be settled.  I am unaware of a single Arab country ready to remove Hamas from power over the Palestinian peoples.   In fact, I do not hear any head of state demanding that Hamas dissolve and give up their power – Including our own president.  But who knows what will happen in the next few days while our House of Representatives figures out if they will unite and at least select a speaker.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

We do not need to be involved in this war. Israel can handle it themselves. But, I do stand for Israel.

I generally agree-though if one of your friends got attacked at a bar and you just stood there and watched you are a pretty bad person.
 

I have no problem giving money and equipment to Israel at this time. 

[Carborendum]

53 minutes ago, Traveler said:

One of the big questions coming out of the current conflict in Israel is how did the military intelligence fail and not see this coming?  Not just the intelligence of Israel but that the USA had not idea either?  

You provide a plausible theory.  Here's mine.

There was a theory that was prevalent since the Great War that it was the war that pulled us out of the Great Depression.  Biden (and his controllers) do not want us going into a depression.  So, they want to instigate another war on a large scale to resettle the economy of the world.

Part of that $6B deal was to get this war going.  That money is currently frozen in South Korea.  Whether it actually is released from (essentially) escrow or not won't make much of a difference.  Iran gave money, weapons, and supplies to Palestine to start this war.  That part is already complete.

Now Biden has plausible deniability because "hey, the money's frozen."  And he's asking for America to supply support to Israel.  We're funding Ukraine, why not Israel too?

The idea is war profiteering.  It will solve all economic problems!

[Vort]

Ah. The 1984 Theory of War. Personally, I disbelieve it. War is ruinous. It literally destroys everything and builds nothing—nothing of value, at least. The US Civil War put us into permanent bondage.

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-debt/

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I generally agree-though if one of your friends got attacked at a bar and you just stood there and watched you are a pretty bad person.
 

I have no problem giving money and equipment to Israel at this time. 

I agree that we should give them material support, I just don't think we should be directly involved.

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I agree that we should give them material support, I just don't think we should be directly involved.

 I understand fully my friend. This is one of those times where my head says one thing and my heart says another. 

[Carborendum]

35 minutes ago, Vort said:

Ah. The 1984 Theory of War. Personally, I disbelieve it. War is ruinous. It literally destroys everything and builds nothing—nothing of value, at least. The US Civil War put us into permanent bondage.

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-debt/

Yup.  But that doesn't stop people from believing it.

Israel just blamed the EU for the propaganda that encouraged Palestine.  Now they (the EU) are cutting off funds to Palestine.  Too little too late.  Seems like everyone is playing both sides of a proxy war.

Yes, one thing I do agree with the squad.  It's all about the Benjamins.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

26 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I agree that we should give them material support, I just don't think we should be directly involved.

We should and we will.  But in this particular case, I don't believe that "what we should do" will result in "what we hope will happen."  We're just going to see ruin at the end of this.

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You provide a plausible theory.  Here's mine.

There was a theory that was prevalent since the Great War that it was the war that pulled us out of the Great Depression.  Biden (and his controllers) do not want us going into a depression.  So, they want to instigate another war on a large scale to resettle the economy of the world.

Part of that $6B deal was to get this war going.  That money is currently frozen in South Korea.  Whether it actually is released from (essentially) escrow or not won't make much of a difference.  Iran gave money, weapons, and supplies to Palestine to start this war.  That part is already complete.

Now Biden has plausible deniability because "hey, the money's frozen."  And he's asking for America to supply support to Israel.  We're funding Ukraine, why not Israel too?

The idea is war profiteering.  It will solve all economic problems!

War IS profiteering in many ways.  It can also create an economical lift as long as the society engaged doesn't get destroyed or hurt beyond the lift it grants. 

That said...I don't think Biden is involved with this.  It's far more likely the classified information that Trump gave to the Russians pertaining to Israel was then given to Iran and Iran used it to help plan this attack. 

We don't need the war in Israel for any economic lift in the US.  Unless it REALLY explodes (I don't see it doing that) it won't have that effect as far as I see. 

Netanyahu had a problem recently with his Justice reforms.  Supposedly many officers and leaders in the military resigned over these things.  Some hypothesize that this loss of experience and manpower created gaps in their intelligence gathering as well as their preparedness that allowed this attack to be as bad as it was. 

However, if anything this unites Israel (from it's rather divided spot over these reforms) against a common enemy.  This does FAR more for Netanyahu and his political situation than it does the US.

Some also hypothesize that it was a move by Iran and Hamas to derail the Arab-Israel peace process that seemed to be forming extremely well.  This actually seems more plausible than any of the other ideas I've read.  It probably stands a good chance of doing that, at least for the time being.  The price Hamas pays for it remains to be seen though. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

13 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It's far more likely the classified information that Trump gave to the Russians pertaining to Israel was then given to Iran and Iran used it to help plan this attack. 

?

[Carborendum]

40 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

?

A common conspiracy theory among liberals is that because Trump and Putin were such "good buddies" that Trump gave them state secrets about our allies such that their our enemies could exploit it.

Ya know... Russia... Russia...Russia...

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[pam]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

One of the big questions coming out of the current conflict in Israel is how did the military intelligence fail and not see this coming?  Not just the intelligence of Israel but that the USA had not idea either?  Perhaps I can provide some insights.  During my time in the military, I was attached to an army intelligence unit.

There are two parts of military intelligence.  The first part is the collection of information and data.  The second part is analysis of the data and information.  Thus, there are two possibilities for failure – First, the lack of or incorrectness of data and information or second, the failure to draw the correct conclusions in analyzing the data and information.

The USA has had many failures in recent history.  Both in collecting adequate data and information but I believe more so in analyzing the data and information correctly.   I became aware of intelligence failures concerning the Vietnam conflict during my time with army intelligence.  I was quite taken back because operational events demonstrated that well known elements of intelligence were being ignored – I believe strictly for political purposes.

I saw what I believed to be more failures during the Carter ministration when with the hostages taken in Iran.  Then the continuation of failures that brought us 9/11 and ignited the gulf war under the Bush administration.  Recently there have been critical failures from the sectary of Defense (General Lloyd Austin) and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of our military (General Milley).  First with the withdrawal of US assets in Afghanistan we were told that there would not be problems because Isis could not take over Afghanistan for months or years.  There were other breaches as well.  Then with the invasion of Ukraine where we were initially told that Russia would not invade (or was unlikely to invade) then we were told that Ukraine would fall within 72 hours to a week.  

Now we are being told that there was no intelligence indicating that Hamas would attack Israel.  I am concerned that we will discover that there was intelligence to the contrary but for whatever reason (likely political) was ignored or diminished.   I am also concerned that there is intelligence that critical terrorists’ risks are being birched at both our southern and northern borders.  Again (though I do not have access to secure information or data) I believe it possible that critical data and information is being set aside for political reasons.  I am also concerned that despite all the intelligence breaches and the severity of the breaches that no one is being relieved of duty and replaced.

These breaches come under both Republican and Democrat administrations.  I believe this is much more than a political party issue.  I am also concerned that in all the news services I only hear our new reporters blaming one political party or the other.  I am beginning to think this is by design.

 

The Traveler

Intelligence is so much more advanced than it was during your time in Vietnam.  This was just outright embarassing on all parts that their intelligence nor the U.S. saw this coming.  Somehow Hamas was able to keep this so much under wraps that even with our advanced intelligence it wasn't detected.