Ezra's Eagle

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, person0 said:

Where I'm going with all that is to suggest that if Biden wins reelection

Nope.  The vision in II Esdras is clear on this.  Biden's presidency would *have* to be *shorter than Trump's* - not cut short per se, but shorter than the previous president's.  There's no other rational way to interpret the vision.  This is the error Rush made - he didn't recognize that after Obama there would be two presidents and the second of them would serve a shorter term than the first.

8 minutes ago, person0 said:

The Democrats dislike Biden so much that they intentionally helped Trump (or R candidate) win so that they could shift the blame of all the country's problems and plan for R president's assassination, thus ending R president's term short.  Or something like that, haha.

Again, would not fit the vision in II Esdras.  I mean, if you're gonna make up nonsense without regard to what it says in II Esdras 11 and 12, then fine, the flying purple people eater can enter stage left, but I'm talking about that vision, regardless of any interpretation of it beyond:

1. The Eagle is the US.

2. The wings and feathers are its leaders.

3. We start with Herbert Hoover (because it's the only way all the durations work).

11 minutes ago, person0 said:

Aside:  I just noticed @zil2 came up with a nice little variant explanation of her own! 🤣

It's the only way to keep anything consistent with what's written in II Esdras - Biden's presidency has to be shorter than Trump's.

12 minutes ago, person0 said:

we don't know what interpolations might exist in the text to modify any of the meaning of the original prophecy.

I'm confused.  It's easy enough to go read various translations of II Esdras 11 and 12.  So...?

[person0]

9 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm confused.  It's easy enough to go read various translations of II Esdras 11 and 12.  So...?

I was referring to D&C 91:2.  Aside from that, your other points are accurate, I just misunderstood your shift from 19->20, and assumed you were suggesting that Biden would be the first short feather.  You never explicitly said that, I just misunderstood what you meant.  I never read the book either, just have read and watch a little online content.

[zil2]

7 hours ago, person0 said:

I was referring to D&C 91:2.

Ah, gotcha. 

8 hours ago, person0 said:

Aside from that, your other points are accurate, I just misunderstood your shift from 19->20, and assumed you were suggesting that Biden would be the first short feather.  You never explicitly said that, I just misunderstood what you meant.  I never read the book either, just have read and watch a little online content.

Yeah, Rush addressed only one president after Obama (which would make Rush's total count only 19), but the way the vision reads, there has to be two presidents after Obama (in order to get the 20 found in the vision), and the second of these (Biden) will serve for a shorter time than the first of these (Trump).  Rush didn't need to know who would come after Trump, but just from the vision, it's clear someone would.  Rush missed that altogether (this baffles me to no end - that's how clear it is in the text of II Esdras 11 & 12).

[Carborendum]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:07 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I continue to be amazed that I was having this conversation 4 years ago, just about Trump and not Biden.  My buddy was speculating about Trump not finishing his term, and that's how we'd know the theory had merit.  

Anyone want to bet that we can skip forward 8 years, and we'll be having this exact same thread, with the exact same posts being made, with the only change being the current president in 2031 being named instead of Biden?

I think you may have gotten an incorrect impression about what the purported prophecy meant.  The only point of concern with regard to the same theory that was offered several years ago was the idea that Trump would be removed from office prematurely.  The "wiggle room" here is that Trump wasn't "removed" from office via death, impeachment, etc.  The election was stolen.

On the question of it being "stolen" is unprovable.  But there is significant evidence that gives a lot of doubt about Biden's legitimacy.  

We can believe that the matter was settled because Biden won and Trump left peacefully.

Or we can look to see what happens with Biden for the next year or next five years and then make a judgment.  That's when things get really obvious in Ezra's Prophecy.

I'll reiterate: I don't know if this passage of the Apocrypha is legit or not.  So, no skin off my nose if it doesn't pan out.  But if it does, that will certainly be rather interesting.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I think you may have gotten an incorrect impression about what the purported prophecy meant. 

I'll reiterate: I don't know if this passage of the Apocrypha is legit or not.  So, no skin off my nose if it doesn't pan out.  But if it does, that will certainly be rather interesting.

My buddy, back 4 years ago when he was thinking this prophecy pertained to Trump, said both these things to me, exactly, word for word.  (It’s weird to hear someone seriously say “purported” out loud to you in a sentence.)
 

If it’s ok with y’all, Imma put a 4 year reminder in my calendar to come revisit this topic, and we’ll see what y’all think about it then.  (Of course, if the prophecies come true and the world is a very different place with nobody having electricity or internet, I’ll have to find you in whatever burned out building you’re taking shelter in, and you can share my rusty can of dog food.)

 And I must reiterate, I don’t think poorly of any of you for discussing this topic, no matter how energetically or zealously.  I used to share the energy and passion, 40 years ago, for the various 1980’s versions of this prophecy.  It’s just hard to watch so many of them come and go, without the predicted drama coming to pass.

Edited January 1 by NeuroTypical

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

without the predicted drama coming to pass.

I stopped paying attention quite a while ago to anyone proclaiming dated timelines too.  I still find them interesting to read though.

Edited January 1 by mirkwood

[mordorbund]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:42 PM, zil2 said:

So, I guess if someone is still talking about this if / after Biden finishes his presidency, they'll be the people who can't reason.  But here, I'll do them a favor: <start conspiracy voice>Biden hasn't been Biden for some time now - they replaced him with a look-alike (or someone wearing a mask, or someone with a good Hollywood make-up job), so Biden's presidency really was cut short even though no one else believes it, and we're just waiting for the big giant head (still can't resist) to wake up and gobble up the next two contenders.</end conspiracy voice>

I think the seed for that has already been planted.

[mordorbund]

Double posted so I better add something of interest here.

Previous discussion: 

 

Edited January 3 by mordorbund

[zil2]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Double posted so I better add something of interest here.

Previous discussion: 

 

If people are getting their information from videos like this rather than reading the vision itself in II Esdras - and I keep getting the impression that no one is reading it - it's no wonder there's confusion surrounding it.  The video in the above thread has the guy saying "the right side, the good side" - there is nothing whatsoever in the text of the vision to suggest the right side is good (yes, I know, it's frequent in scripture, but not in this vision).  The only indication of meaning for the right side is that it represents the place of rulers (the wings go there ("arise") when they rule).  People are assuming an eagle with two wings, one on the left and another on the right, but the vision doesn't read like that at all - it has 12 feathered wings¹ and three heads, and "out of her wings there grew [8] other wings over against them;".  Usually, "over against them" means "across from them" or "on the opposite side" - suggesting there are 12 wings on one side of the eagle and 8 on the other.  (Some translations have the 8 "opposed" or "contrary" to the 12 (and growing out of the feathers of the bird rather than the wings).)  Given that the ones that rule always "arise" or "rise up" or are "set up" on the right side, and sides aren't otherwise mentioned, I don't think we can assume anything except that the right side is a place of authority.

Anyway, he talks about how these two little wings "were on the right side, the good side, they're gonna break over to the bad side" - but the vision says: "...lo, two little wings divided themselves from the six, and remained under the head that was upon the right side..."  Um, so they didn't go from the "right side, the good side, ...to the bad side" - they went from some undefined place (but possibly the left side) to the head on the right.  Dude just read those verses aloud before saying the exact opposite of what the verses say.  What the, huh?  How can I be the only one to catch these things?

Good grief.  Dude is claiming the vision says things it doesn't!  It's like this guy never read the Old Testament and doesn't know the way they spoke / wrote.  It's also like he never read chapter 12. (And he's crappy at making videos - using a pointer that doesn't show on the recording and doesn't edit the video to add visual markers.  Grrr.  Why would anyone pay attention to this dude?  I can't bear to watch more.)

¹Wouldn't it be funny if this should have been translated as "twelve-feathered wings".  Then there would be 24 "big" feathers and 8 little feathers.  But alas, I don't know Latin, Armenian, Ethiopian, or Gregorian (the languages of the oldest versions of this text), so I can't go try to figure it out.  Apparently it's universally accepted as 12 wings, so, nevermind. It was fun while it lasted...

Edited January 3 by zil2

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, zil2 said:

If people are getting their information from videos like this rather than reading the vision itself in II Esdras - and I keep getting the impression that no one is reading it - it's no wonder there's confusion surrounding it.  The video in the above thread has the guy saying "the right side, the good side" - there is nothing whatsoever in the text of the vision to suggest the right side is good (yes, I know, it's frequent in scripture, but not in this vision).  The only indication of meaning for the right side is that it represents the place of rulers (the wings go there ("arise") when they rule).  People are assuming an eagle with two wings, one on the left and another on the right, but the vision doesn't read like that at all - it has 12 feathered wings¹ and three heads, and "out of her wings there grew [8] other wings over against them;".  Usually, "over against them" means "across from them" or "on the opposite side" - suggesting there are 12 wings on one side of the eagle and 8 on the other.  (Some translations have the 8 "opposed" or "contrary" to the 12 (and growing out of the feathers of the bird rather than the wings).)  Given that the ones that rule always "arise" or "rise up" or are "set up" on the right side, and sides aren't otherwise mentioned, I don't think we can assume anything except that the right side is a place of authority.

Anyway, he talks about how these two little wings "were on the right side, the good side, they're gonna break over to the bad side" - but the vision says: "...lo, two little wings divided themselves from the six, and remained under the head that was upon the right side..."  Um, so they didn't go from the "right side, the good side, ...to the bad side" - they went from some undefined place (but possibly the left side) to the head on the right.  Dude just read those verses aloud before saying the exact opposite of what the verses say.  What the, huh?  How can I be the only one to catch these things?

Good grief.  Dude is claiming the vision says things it doesn't!  It's like this guy never read the Old Testament and doesn't know the way they spoke / wrote.  It's also like he never read chapter 12. (And he's crappy at making videos - using a pointer that doesn't show on the recording and doesn't edit the video to add visual markers.  Grrr.  Why would anyone pay attention to this dude?  I can't bear to watch more.)

¹Wouldn't it be funny if this should have been translated as "twelve-feathered wings".  Then there would be 24 "big" feathers and 8 little feathers.  But alas, I don't know Latin, Armenian, Ethiopian, or Gregorian (the languages of the oldest versions of this text), so I can't go try to figure it out.  Apparently it's universally accepted as 12 wings, so, nevermind. It was fun while it lasted...

You have touched on several problems with ancient text – especially scripture.  It can be difficult for even two individuals well versed in their first language to be present and listen to a third person (also speaking in the same language) to have the same understanding to what was spoken.  One of the most difficult problems with scriptural text is that few are expert enough to translate from the original text.  Of those experts, there is often an agenda that is contrary to what is being written in the text. 

I have determined (also suggested in my patriarchal blessing) that the single best tool for understanding is the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  The single worse tool for understanding is to have a preset (prejudice) conclusion that is intended to achieve.  The Doctrine and Covenants outlines for us a very workable method that includes study – which includes the gathering of information, cataloging the information, meditating (thinking out logical possibilities), creating a consensus and then praying about the entire process and especially the consensus.  I believe there is one more step that is not explicitly stated but implied – that is to listen for a response.  For example, many got to the temple and pray for an answer.  So busy are they praying that they never hear a response.  I am of the mind that listening to the spirit is a discipline to be learned – not a difficult discipline for a small child is often more capable of listening discipline than adults.

I believe there is a problem in that some would think all that is necessary is that we pray and ask; then whatever it is that we then believe is all that is necessary.  Sometime my personal prayers have not been answered for several years – so long that I had forgotten my prayers and had to be reminded by the spirit.  For me, most often, understanding does not come all at once.  Usually, I have to engage and take baby steps of understanding through action and experience while remaining loyal to covenants.  Often, greater dedications are needed towards covenants before things become clearer.   Side note here – it amazes me that, for example, any effort to better keep the Sabbath Day holy is most met with ridicule is from those compartmented Saints that think no one should attempt a more holy Sabbath Day than them.

There is one other critical element – it would seem that understanding is most often specific to myself and when I share it generally it is not well understood or accepted – yet there are a few (some family and some very close friends) that are trustworthy to share.  Sometimes on rare occasions this forum.  Then to my surprise my new found understandings are old things they have known for a long time – and so they welcome me to my new understandings.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 3 by Traveler

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

You have touched on several problems with ancient text – especially scripture.  It can be difficult for even two individuals well versed in their first language to be present and listen to a third person (also speaking in the same language) to have the same understanding to what was spoken. 

IMO, that's not what's happening here.  I mean, "these two feathers went over to the head on the right" cannot in any way be understood as "they left the right side and went to the bad side".  I think dude is just royally confused or spouting what he wants it to say, or something.

(But yes, generally, you're right.)

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

that the single best tool for understanding is the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Amen!

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

The single worse tool for understanding is to have a preset (prejudice) conclusion that is intended to achieve.

Double amen!

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

The Doctrine and Covenants outlines for us a very workable method that includes study – which includes the gathering of information, cataloging the information, meditating (thinking out logical possibilities), creating a consensus and then praying about the entire process and especially the consensus.  I believe there is one more step that is not explicitly stated but implied – that is to listen for a response.  For example, many got to the temple and pray for an answer.  So busy are they praying that they never hear a response.  I am of the mind that listening to the spirit is a discipline to be learned – not a difficult discipline for a small child is often more capable of listening discipline than adults.

Amen and amen!

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

...it would seem that understanding is most often specific to myself and when I share it generally it is not well understood or accepted – ...

I believe this is in part due to our language, which cannot communicate everything (see all the instances in 3 Nephi where people were unable to write, speak, or even imagine the things Christ said).  I think there are things in each of us that we simply cannot communicate to others - we'll have to do it in the next life (this includes the depth of certain feelings, the significance to us of small acts of kindness, and the things we have come to understand).  To try would take volumes.  And, of course, you cannot teach trigonometry to someone who has yet to learn algebra.

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, zil2 said:

.......

I believe this is in part due to our language, which cannot communicate everything (see all the instances in 3 Nephi where people were unable to write, speak, or even imagine the things Christ said).  I think there are things in each of us that we simply cannot communicate to others - we'll have to do it in the next life (this includes the depth of certain feelings, the significance to us of small acts of kindness, and the things we have come to understand).  To try would take volumes.  And, of course, you cannot teach trigonometry to someone who has yet to learn algebra.

As a young missionary I dealt with the reference in 3Nephi and wondered how it was possible that anything could not be expressed.  For all my pursuit there was no reasonable answer.  For me, there has always been a process as I explained previously.  Answers come as impressions in thoughts that usually come as a process themselves.  Sometimes the thought process is that I am not ready (worthy).  Sometimes I understand things will not be made known until later – as thought there is a time and a season.  Sometimes I understand in part with the impression that more will come over time.

However, there was nothing concerning the 3Nephi conundrum.   I eventually forgot about it and moved on to other things.  Many years later I found myself overridden with life, work and callings.  I was way in over my head attempting to stay above water with my young growing family, critical requirements in my work and challenges in my calling.  Any one of the challenges would have been too much but with all that was going on – I was realizing that I was not contributing sufficiently anywhere.

Circumstances were such that I had the privilege of being in the Celestial room of a temple for the dedication.  As best as I can describe my experience – during the dedication it was as though the temple walls and celling became transparent.  There is no possible way I could describe what I heard and saw and especially what I was able to perceive.  The spirit reminded me of my searching years before, letting me understand that what I was experiencing was an answer to my questions concerning 3Nephi.  I was also impressed that the reason for my experience was, in part, because of my willingness to remain loyal to my covenants.  I am often reminded (though not always) of this experience when I visit the temples or hear (sing) certain hymns. 

The impression I have of Ezra’s Eagle is that I will be better prepared for things to come by paying greater attention to other things I have been given.

 

The Traveler

[mirkwood]

32 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I will be better prepared for things to come by paying greater attention to other things I have been given.

 

 

This is actually a mentality I teach in my preparedness lessons.  I tell people to be in tune with the spirit and let that guide their activities as they engage in preparedness plans and actions.

[NeuroTypical]

By the way, my gulcher end-times buddy recently produced a new giant wall of text prediction.   We're currently in "The trial of the saints".  Tribulations start in 2027, then Great Tribulations in 2031, then in 2034, the Lord sets his foot on the mount of olives.  I share with his permission: 

 

Quote

Hello all,

Most of you have never heard me give a talk in a sacrament meeting.  Not
sure why that was, perhaps my thinking was too far "out there" for the
ward leadership.  Interestinly enough, I've shared my thinking with
them, and yet, apparently, no one felt inclined to correct me, in my
thinking, if they thought I was in error.  It remains a mystery to me.  
If I had been asked me  to share something with those I associated with
in a meeting of that sort, what follows is what I might have gone with.

Are you prepared for the day of vengeance to come, when the Lord will
consume the wicked by the brightness of His coming?  No? Then do not be
too anxious for the Lord to hasten His work. (That being said, we've
been told He has.) Let our anxiety be centered upon this one thing, the
sanctification of our own hearts, the purifying of our own affections,
the preparing of ourselves for the approach of events that are hastening
upon us.  This should be our concern, this should be our study, this
should be our daily prayer...Seek to have the Spirit of Christ...

What is expected of us individually and as a people?
Isaiah 1:18

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your
sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red
like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing [teachable] and obedient, ye shall eat the good of
the land:

The important and pertinent part here, is,  we are asked to reason with
the Lord. A question arises, how might we go about that?

In Matt 26:2  Jesus tells the disciples he will be betrayed and
crucified.   They couldn't conceptualize it. (John 16:17) They thought
he was speaking symbolically. When He was crucified they were shocked.
(see Luke 24:18-25)  Even when He had risen, they didn't believe it when
Mary told them.  (Luke 24:10-12, Mark 16:11, )

Are we any different today?  What are we missing the boat on?  We think
we understand, but we probably don't.  How might we understand then?

Alma 12
9 And now Alma began to expound these things ... It is given unto many
to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict
command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his
word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed
and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the
lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to
him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him
to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser
portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries;
and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down
to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

What are the mysteries of God Alma is talking about?   Are we talking
about some obscure, heavy doctrines here, or are we talking about things
that are fundamental to our salvation?  I think it's more likely the
latter. (It is apparent, we do not need to wait until the sealed plates
are translated to know the mysteries they contain, for we can know the
mysteries in full.) Case in point, Jesus Christ, bar none, is the
greatest mystery of the Old Testament. Apparently, the Jews didn't
understand those prophecies, though they thought they did, and they
rejected Christ when He came. I find that interesting.

Today, I hear people say, If I need to know something, the Prophet is
going to tell me. Another question arises:  Is that true?  Is it the
prophet's responsibility to drag our carcasses into the Celestial
Kingdom or does that responsibility fall directly on our individual
shoulders?

What did Elder Bednar say?  If all you know is what others have told
you, you will never know enough. If all you know is what has been
written in books by others, you will never know enough. There is a need
to pay an individual price to learn for yourselves. You cannot live on
borrowed light. You have to go into the scriptures: you have to ask,
seek, and knock. You have to have an individual personal knowledge of
these things. It is necessary for each one of us to have an individual
covenant connection with the resurrected and living Lord Jesus Christ. A
witness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost produces a spiritual
knowledge, an illumination and a conviction, more sure, more powerful,
and more enduring than can be received through seeing, hearing, touching
or rational argument alone.

We are taught in multiple scriptures that God is no respecter of persons
(Acts 10:34, Romans 10:!2, Moro 8:12, D&C 1:35) and a rewarder of those
who diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6) Remember what Joseph Smith read in
James 1:5-6 and look where that got him when he exercised the faith to
execute on that knowledge. Therefore we may understand the gift of light
and knowledge is freely offered, and if we reject it by making no effort
or an insufficient effort, then we are left without excuse and remain
under condemnation to "perish in the dark" as Nephi would say.

That means we have a serious responsibility to understand the doctrines
of the gospel. Our leaders are the administrators, the key holders of
the ordinances of the gospel. They protect against false doctrines, but
you will not hear them expound the mysteries of the kingdom in general
conference -- It's called general conference for a reason -- in a
setting where people are struggling to come to terms with and identify
what a "family" actually is.

In JST Isaiah 42:19-23 we read:

19 For I will send my servant unto you who are blind; yea, a messenger
to open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;
20 And they shall be made perfect notwithstanding their blindness, if
they will hearken unto the messenger, the Lord’s servant.
21 Thou art a people, seeing many things, but thou observest not;
opening the ears to hear, but thou hearest not.
22 The Lord is not well pleased with such a people, but for his
righteousness’ sake he will magnify the law and make it honorable.
23 Thou art a people robbed and spoiled; thine enemies, all of them,
have snared thee in holes, and they have hid thee in prison houses; they
have taken thee for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none
saith, Restore.

Clearly the servant here is the Lord Jesus Christ.  When the scriptures
are saying the people are blind [remember we are to liken them to
ourselves] its us -- we are the ones they are talking about who are
blind. This is not referring to physical blindness or deafness.  It's
easy for us to look at the Jews and say, yeah those doofuses -- they
just didn't get it. We need to look in the mirror and realize we're the
doofesus too. Christ came to give us a message, to open our eyes, to see
things in a new way -- as they really are in fact. Thank goodness our
forefathers had the spiritual strength and courage to accept the gospel,
because today, if it were left up to most of us . . .  and Kudos to
those of you who have accepted the gospel . . . we might be in serious
trouble because it goes against the grain of the thinking of the world.
There is much opposition, and its constantly growing, and we as a people
really need to be able to listen to the Holy Ghost for ourselves.

But for those us of who have inherited our faith from our forefathers,
we're just like the Jews. You may say, Bro. Welch, how can you say
that?   We go to general conference and listen to the general
authorities and do what they say ....  Do we??  Do we do what they and
the scriptures say?  The church would be dramatically different if we
did everything President Nelson and the twelve have told us to do recently.

President Nelson is now famous for dropping his bombshell one-liners.
But he hardly ever delves into or explains them or mention what will
cause them. For example, recently he said, "In coming days, we will see
the greatest manifestations of the Savior’s power that the world has
ever seen. Between now and the time He returns “with power and great
glory,” He will bestow countless privileges, blessings, and miracles
upon the faithful." (GC Oct 2022) Then he moves on.

What are the greatest manifestation of the Savior's power we are going
to see, and why are we going to see them in our day? what does that mean
for the days we are living in?  Most recently he said, "in coming days,
it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding,
directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.”  (GC
Oct 2023)  Again, he moved on.  Question: why will you not survive the
coming day -- what is it about the coming day we need to prepare for?

Pres Nelson recently invited us - especially the sisters - to make our
homes places of security, (GC Oct 2020) and to learn and understand our
covenants and how to use the priesthood. (the covenants the Lord made
with the House of Israel) ( GC Oct 21) "And oh, how we will need His
power in the days ahead."

All of us presume the answers to those statements of Pres Nelson in an
instant and we move on. Case in point, when Christ told the disciples in
Jerusalem, he had other sheep that were not of that fold, He says, My
Apostles assumed I was talking about the Gentiles. But they were wrong
-- dead wrong. In 3 Nephi 16:4 we understand that they did not know;
because they didn't ask the Father to know. Apparently they had an utter
lack of curiosity. They didn't ask or knock. Now think about who we're
talking about here. The original quorum of the twelve Apostles.

We receive according to the heed and diligence we give to the word of
God as Alma taught us above.

When we look at Joseph Smith, how many of the incredible and fantastic
doctrines/revelations were only received because he thought to ask? 
What is the last question you have asked the Lord?  If you're not asking
the Lord questions, why would you expect answers?  You might get a "push
notification" when you need them, now and then, but there is so much
more available. If you are putting your spiritual education in the hands
of your leaders, you're not going to get everything you need. It was
never intended that should be the case. What about everything you would
learn if the Lord were to teach you?  Then you could answer the
question: did you hear what wasn't said?

Many in the Church believe like Laman and Lemuel -- the Lord will speak
to Lehi, but He doesn't speak to me. Today that would sound like, If I
need to know something I'll just ask my dad and he'll tell me what I
need to know. Contrast this to Nephi's approach. Remember Nephi at this
point is a teenager, and he is talking to and pleading with the Lord. 
What does his introductory statement say?

... nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days;
yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of
God,...

Then Nephi recorded what his father has said, then in Chapter 1 Nephi 10
he says,
1 Nephi 10
17 ... I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know
of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of
God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of hold as
in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is
prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that
they repent and come unto him.
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God
shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in
these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times
to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

The question is, what do you think about this?  Do you believe it, or do
you think the lord speaks to others but not to you?

Now this does not absolve us as parents and especially fathers for the
instruction of our children.  We are given the following example of
Enoch as he describes his father's tutoring:  "... And my father taught
me in all the ways of God." (Moses 6:41)  Enoch had a great father, but
how much greater was He taught when the Lord spoke to him?

When Enoch began his mission he berates his people with this saying:
"...why counsel ye yourselves, and deny the God of heaven?"  (see
Proverbs 1:24-33, and D&C 56:14-15)

Nephi is writing to us because he put what he is telling us to the test,
and he got results.  So he is telling us what the Lord told him.   We
get to 1 Nephi 14:17 and we read:

For example: 1 Nephi 14:
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the
mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the
earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the
Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his
covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

Notice he's not fulfilling the covenants, but commencing to prepare the
way to fulfill them.  This is not what you think it is. The destruction
of the whore of Babylon is the sign that the Father is commencing the
preparation of his fulfilling of those covenants.

The question you might and should be asking yourself, is, "isn't the
fulfilling of the covenants of the house of Israal refering to the
gathering? And haven't we been engaged in that since 1830? Guess
what???  The whore of Babylon hasn't been destroyed yet, and we have
been working on gathering Israel for a long time now. We've got around
17 million people on the records, 25% of which we don't know where they
are or live, and of the balance, probably another 25% actually attend
church meetings now and then.  This is not what Nephi is talking about. 
Nephi is talking about the 10th Article of Faith.  "We believe in the
literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; ..."

The restoration of the ten tribes happens after the whore of Babylon is
destroyed. Think about that.  When is the Whore of Babylon destroyed? 
It talks about that in the Book of Revelation.   The false prophet and
the beast having seven heads and ten horns, which are ten kings that
have no kingdom but receive power as kings one hour with the beast- they
hate the whore, and burn her with fire.  This is the sign the ten tribes
are about to return.

This is the last portion of the vision that Nephi is permitted to talk
about, for in the very next verse the angel says, hey - Look! Behold one
of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, he shall see and write the remainder
of these things. Others who have lived will see and write about these
things.  Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, John just to name a few.   Why
wasn't Nephi allowed to write about these things?

vs 28
I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things
which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written
sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.

Well, guess what?  It really didn't suffice Nephi all that much because
then he went on to include 19 chapters Isaiah had written.  He wasn't
allowed to write, but Isaiah had already written about it, and Nephi saw
no foul in including Isaiah's writings in his record, all of which talk
about what he saw and heard in his vision.

The important component here is the restoration of the House of Isreal
and what that actually looks like. There is something that is so
impressive and so monumental about it, that Nephi wasn't allowed to talk
about it.  Daniel lived at the same tine as Nephi -- they were probably
about the same age. If they had been together they probably would have
attended the same deacons quorum.

Jeremiah saw our day.  In Jer 16:14-16 He wrote:

14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no
more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel
out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the
land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them:
and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall
fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt
them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of
the rocks.

The fishers and hunters he refers to are the 144,000.

Does anyone reading this have the faintest clue what the return of the
ten tribes will look like or involve?  Why?  If you are waiting for
someone in general conference to tell you, you'll probably never find
out.  You're going to have to follow the example of Nephi, Alma and
Amulek and all the prophets and seek the Lord, ask and knock and learn
these things for yourself.

Don't forget that after every chapter of Isaiah he transcribes, Nephi
provides a commentary of what Isaiah wrote.  Take Chapter 21 for
example.  What does the heading say?

The Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles and will free the prisoners
—Israel will be gathered with power in the last days —
In Chapter 22 Nephi gives his commentary on what Isaiah wrote in chapter
21 and is stopped almost in mid-sentence in vs 29.

Again the question needs to be asked, What is it about the
restoration/gathering of the House of Israel that Nephi is worried he is
about the cross the line the Lord told him not to cross and not talk
about?  Do you really think this is about the current level of
missionary work the church is engaged in?   I don't.  If the Lord
wouldn't let Nephi talk about this, why would he let President Nelson?

Then when we get to the end of Nephi's writings, we find him in morning
because he has not only seen the end of his people, but he has seen our
day.

2 Nephi 32
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance,
and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and
the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search
knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in
plainness, even as plain as word can be.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot
understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock;
wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way,
and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye
should do.

When Christ visited the Nephites he gave them the same instruction more
or less.

He told them to pray for understanding
3 Nephi 17
2 I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words
which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time.
3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I
have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand,
and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.

Mormon was going to record the whole thing (referencing Christ's visit)
and the Lord stopped him.
3 Nephi 26
9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they
should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they
shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made
manifest unto them.
10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall
the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the
plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith
of my people.

The Lord gave us this message to see if we would seek, ask and knock --
and we don't -- or, we haven't done a very good job to date as a people.
By and large we are completely ignorant of these things.

Again in Ether 13 Mormon is forbidden to write more (and there is so
much more)
13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; but great and
marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught,
and cast him out;

Let us not be guilty of the same thing - to esteem these things as
naught.   Apparently it's a problem, for we as a church are still under
condemnation for treating lightly the things we've already received,
namely the Book of Mormon.  I personally have never read where we've
been told we've come out from underneath that condemnation.  I don't
expect we can realistically expect more to be revealed than what we've
already got, if we are not feasting on the portion we have received.

There are things to be learned, which you're just not going to find, in
your favorite manual, Ensign Magazine, Sunday School, or Gospel Doctrine
class.  You will only find them by seeking out the master teacher and
asking and knocking. You're going to have to make the spiritual effort
required to drink of the living water He freely offers.

Recall that after Moses crossed the red sea with the children of Israel,
and they came to the base of Mount Sinai.  The people were told to
sanctify themselves and prepare to hear the word of the Lord.  When the
time came, ...mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord
descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke
of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the
noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw
it, they removed, and stood afar off.
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let
not God speak with us, lest we die.
And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you,
and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
And the people stood afar off -- they weren't having any of it. So the
Lord sent an angel to go before them instead of himself.

The people were saying, nuts to this, but Moses was telling them, no
it's ok, the Lord wants to teach you himself, and it is your right to
hear this from him. The people said, no way Moses. that's your job. You
go talk to him and then you come tell us what he said; in the meantime
we'll be over here. Now that's not what the Lord intended, but it's what
happened.

Today, we as a people are of the same mind set. The Lord doesn't intend
for you to hear his voice twice a year in General Conference. That is
not his intention. He wants to teach you. You are his beloved son or
daughter, and if you will seek counsel, ask and knock; listen to the
promptings and then act on them, He will begin to open your eyes and
unfold all of his mysteries to you.

A few more ideas and I'll close.   In GC OCt 2021, and Apr 2022, we were
once again reminded to consider the following things Nephi wrote:

He “beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the
saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the
Lord, … and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God
in great glory."  In 2020 we were told we live in that day, and we had
front row seats to what Nephi saw in vision. We were also told that "The
phrase “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great
glory” is not simply a nice idea or an example of beautiful scriptural
language."  The President Nelson said, "Oh, how we will need His power
in the days ahead."

Ever take time to consider just what that would entail, or the
possibilities of things you might complete or engage in?  Here is just a
few for instance found in JST Genesis 14:

" ... Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and
when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and
quenched the violence of fire."

"every one being ordained after this order and calling should have
power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up
waters, to turn them out of their course;

To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break
every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according
to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers;
and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the
foundation of the world."

Before this current decade is over, that is the kind of power you will
need to bring to bear to protect those you love and care about.

For the sisters.  That kind of priesthood power is not just for the men
to wield.  It is yours as well. The 'fullness of the priesthood' is not
bestowed on men in ward or stake buildings when they are given a calling
in the church. It is given to couples, in the sealing rooms of the
Temple.  Men are anointed and ordained to be Kings and Priests.  Women
are anointed and ordained to become Queens and Priestesses. This is the
Priesthood Abraham sought his appointment to. (PoGP Abraham1:2-4)  You
have just as much right and capacity to lay your hands on the heads of
your children and bless them as does your husband. (Especially helpful
when he's not around for whatever reason) Joseph Smith taught this so
plainly there can be no disputations about it. In this area, you're both
equal.  You go back to ancient Israel and you will find women like
Deborah, who was a prophetess and judge in Israel who commanded Barak to
go to war (judges 4) and Esther who saved her people from destruction.
We would still be in the Garden of Eden, if Eve hadn't figured things
out, and had not the fortitude to take the plunge. I'm grateful Adam
considered the situation and wisely decided it would be smart move to
come with her; a miracle in and of itself when you read their personal
perspectives on the situation.  I have no doubt in the coming days, some
women will again rise up, and do the same. (Eccl 1:9)  We sign the
Spirit of God, and in there you will see that the judges are coming back
... just a thought.

Finally, in Jeremiah 1:12 Jeremiah is shown some things and the Lord
says "...I will hasten my word to perform it."  Twenty one years later
Babylon strikes and those of noble birth are carted off.  Daniel was one
of those.  But in Jer 17:  the Lord tells the people if they will keep
the sabbath day holy, it will stave off the pending destruction (see the
heading)

In 2012 the age for missionaries was reduced, and in 2013 in the Oct GC
we were told the Lord was hastening his work.  In 2015, we were reminded
that "The purpose of the Church’s recent emphasis on Sabbath observance
is to help Latter-day Saints living in an age of doubt and fear increase
faith in their Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ,    We all need
more faith - the brethren are looking ahead and they see what is coming."

"There is faith that must be developed now that we will absolutely need
in the years to come.”

In 2018 Oct GC, we were introduced to a home centered church supported
plan - this was included in the churches efforts to help us hallow the
Sabbath day - to make it a delight, and a personal sign to God of our
love for him.

If you take 2013 and add 21 years to that, you will arrive at 2034.  You
can take a look at the Connect the Dots document to see what that looks
like.

In 2019 we were told "time is running out."  In 2020, we were told we
have front row seats to what Nephi saw.  If you haven't started to point
yourself back towards the Lord up to this point, you've squandered what
I suspect is 50% of the time you had remaining to get with the program
before things take a serious turn south.  The qualities we've been asked
to develop cannot be completed over night.  The bottom line here is I'm
just shining a light on things as they really are ...  Choose wisely.
What more can I say?

Jim
------------------------
references
Elder Neal A Maxwell
“To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the
Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”  (Pres
Nelson 2018 GC revelation for our lives)

Pres Nelson
But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually
without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of
the Holy Ghost.

President Lorenzo Snow, “This is the grand privilege of every Latter-day
Saint … that it is our right to have the manifestations of the Spirit
every day of our lives.”

Women and the Priesthood
2019 Oct GC Women’s Session – Spiritual Treasures
Counseled to read D&C 25, 84, 107

Pres Nelson 2019
Brethren, your first and foremost duty as a bearer of the priesthood is
to love and care for your wife. Become one with her. Be her partner.
Make it easy for her to want to be yours. No other interest in life
should take priority over building an eternal relationship with her.

Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now.
Time is running out.


Pres Nelson 2020
To the women of the church
create areas where they would be safe—“places of security’ in the home
I invite you, my dear sisters, to create a home that is a place of
security. And I renew my invitation for you to increase your
understanding of priesthood power and of temple covenants and blessings.
Having places of security to which you can retreat will help you embrace
the future with faith.

We have front-row seats to witness live what the prophet Nephi saw only
in vision,  (1 Nephi 14:15)

this is the last dispensation, when “nothing shall be withheld” from the
Saints.  (See D&C 121:28-32)

do whatever it takes to increase your spiritual capacity to receive
personal revelation.

I encourage you to make a list of all that the Lord has promised He will
do for covenant Israel. I think you will be astounded! Ponder these
promises. Talk about them with your family and friends. Then live and
watch for these promises to be fulfilled in your own life.

Pres Nelson 2021
oh, how we will need His power in the days ahead.

I want the tongue of seven thunders to wake up the people. (apparently
we are mostly asleep at the switch)

I plead with you to make time for the Lord! Make your own spiritual
foundation firm and able to stand the test of time by doing those things
that allow the Holy Ghost to be with you always.

Miracles come according to your faith in the Lord.

-------------
A covenant promise is, that as we honor our covenants, we may always
have His Spirit to be with us [our constant companion].  We make it
harder than it is or should be.  We always attempt to make it a formula,
or a check list: if I do these four things, I'm going to hear the voice
of the spirit. We shouldn't be trying to recognize it when it comes; we
should be attempting to learn what causes it to leave.  It ought to be
with us all the time. If you and I are doing our best, and we're not
committing serious transgression, [you don't have to be perfect] then we
can count on the Holy Ghost guiding us. The Holy Ghost is not big,
sudden, and dramatic. It's still and small and incremental over time.

Quick to Observe
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-a-bednar/quick-observe/

Quote

The "Connect the dots" document: 

Connecting the Dots - How many times can different occurances point to the same thing before we quit calling it a cooincidence? 

1.  Jeremiah was called to be a prophet in 626 BCE - the Lord told Jeremiah he was hastening his word to make things happen. 
    21 Years later, Babylon Conqured Jerusalem and Daniel was among those carried away.
    
    In 2013 We were told the Lord was Hastening his Work.   Add 21 years to that and you end up at 2034 
    
    
2.  In Hosea 6:2 we read:
    After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

    In 2 Peter 3:8 we get this famous quote
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    
    The sign or type and shadow of this event is the story of the woman at the well, where the Lord meets the Samaritain woman.  In that day, 
    the Samaritains were considered gentiles, and the Lord spent two days with them. 

    According to the Book of Mormon, the Lord died on the first day of the first month of the year, which according to the calendar then in use was the year 34 AD.
    
    Add 2,000 years to that and you will end up with 2034. 
 
3.  In 1827 the sign of Virgo appeared in the sky (see Rev 12).  At this point in time, Joseph Smith received the gold plates.  In 1844 the Council of 50 was created 
    which was the foundation of the government of God on the earth.  Again there is a time lap of 17 years. 
    
    In 2017 the sign of Virgo appeared yet again.  If the government of God is to appear once again at his coming, add 17 years and you get yet again 2034. 
    

4.  Daniel's prophecies.   See the Daniel's number spreadsheet of the image if the spreadsheet doesn't work for you.  The spreadsheet has more information in it though. 

The year 2034 apparently will be when the Lord sets his foot on the Mount of Olives.  If you've done much research on this topic, much has to happen between now and then. 

There's also a spreadsheet, if anyone wants.

 

[mirkwood]

Interesting.  Though I'm always leery when people place dates.

[SilentOne]

Can I make a big end-of-days prediction, too? I'll start off with the idea that the right and left sides of the eagle are the political right and left of the United States - that vision was given specifically for people in the modern day, and the people who were around at the time were not intended to understand. Also, when the proud and they that do wickedly will burn, it's going to be because of global warming. I haven't worked out the rest of the details yet.

Edited January 28 by SilentOne

[zil2]

2 hours ago, SilentOne said:

I'll start off with the idea that the right and left sides of the eagle are the political right and left of the United States

Can you quote verses from the passage in a way that demonstrates this?  Because I can't find anything that talks about the right side except that that's always where the rulers are "set up" and I can't find anything at all about the left side beyond one of the smaller heads (except implied by "over against the other").

And it's an assumption there there's a right and left side that matter - the eagle has 3 heads and 12 wings (in unspecified arrangement) and 8 wings that grew "out of her wings" and "over against them".  People assume that it's got two wings and 12 big feathers and 8 little feathers; or they assume 6 wings on the left and 6 on the right, or whatever division - the text gives far too little to justify those assumptions, IMO.  Visions in scripture are bizarre (look at Ezekiel), and we should not assume that Ezra's eagle looks anything like a real eagle - nor should we assume that it didn't sometimes look like an eagle and other times not so much.

Link to text: https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eS8w_gnIjwMC&pg=GBS.PA30&hl=en

[Grenjelo]

Rush didn't miscount the feathers.  His interpretation in the audiobook around 2016 was that that little feather 3 was Trump, 4 his VP who would be sworn in after Trump's demise and that VP would in turn have a short term.  5 and 6 would possibly be the Speaker of the House and President Pro Tempore of the Senate.  All 4 could be impacted by a terror attack at an event such as the State of the Union address.  Of course it hasn't played out that way.

Trump left Washington DC early skipping Biden's inauguration.  The Constitution has the office starting at 12:00 PM, but Biden was sworn in (took the oath/made the presidential covenant) around 11:52 AM so just 8 minutes early....maybe that counts.

Edited March 4 by Grenjelo
Spelling

[zil2]

Welcome to ThirdHour, @Grenjelo!

9 hours ago, Grenjelo said:

His interpretation in the audiobook around 2016 was that that little feather 3 was Trump, 4 his VP who would be sworn in after Trump's demise and that VP would in turn have a short term. 

Thanks for letting us know about the difference in the audiobook version (I never listen to books, so I would never have learned that).  This adjustment didn't make it into the print book (unless there's a later printing than the one I had access to, updated with this theory) and doesn't seem to have been added as an update on his website (not in print - didn't watch the video).

9 hours ago, Grenjelo said:

Trump left Washington DC early skipping Biden's inauguration.  The Constitution has the office starting at 12:00 PM, but Biden was sworn in (took the oath/made the presidential covenant) around 11:52 AM so just 8 minutes early....maybe that counts.

At this point, Trump is irrelevant and there's no conflict with the wording of the actual vision even if that doesn't count.  Biden's term is the only thing still relevant to this interpretation.

[tomasgreenro]

On 12/14/2023 at 1:33 AM, zil2 said:

No, I've not gone off the deep end!  

TL,DR: Has anyone actually read the original interpretation (by Michael B. Rush who appears to have originated it) of the vision contained in the apocryphal book 2 Esdras, chapters 11 and 12 about US presidents and used to predict the timing of the Second Coming?  If so, do you have any thoughts?

(Above chapter 11 link is an old book on the google play store that was scanned. I trust its translation more as some make no sense and confuse matters more. Other good ones seem to be the Bible Gateway one and Bible Society one.)

Long Version:

A Church member (sister) I know has been reading some books and watching some videos by this fellow, including the book in which he details his interpretation (which he said is inspired, and explains when / how that happened in the book - and in the excerpt at the above link).  Here is where he claims to be the originator (at same link) - at least, that's my interpretation:

Of course, brother Rush has written books and is selling them, along with making YouTube videos.  This is the first time I've heard of him.  And though I've heard the phrase "Ezra's Eagle" before, I had no idea what it was and never felt inclined to investigate.

Back to this sister.  She said her adult children have been giving her a hard time because she's reading the guy's books and asked if I'd be willing to read some portion of them (or perhaps all) and tell her what I think.  The short section on Ezra's Eagle (from the July 2020 edition of A Remnant Shall Return) was the first thing she wanted me to read.  So, I took the book.

First thing I did was google this site, and then the web.  I didn't find much in text (hate watching videos when I'm trying to learn details - wastes so much time).  But I found that it's from a vision in the apocryphal book of 2 Esdras 11 and 12.  So, I found that and read it.  It meant nothing specific to me, so then I turned to the book. (Later, I went back and read some of the book of Daniel 2, 7 and 8, because it's mentioned in 2 Esdras, but I couldn't find any obvious relation between the visions - though I don't suppose there has to be.)

Useful notes about me:

• I'm not a history buff. I think the US education system I grew up in was explicitly designed to cause children to be disinterested in history, and it succeeded with me.  I've only recently started changing my mind, so I'm ignorant as a stump.
• I'm not a "signs of the times" buff.  I know the scriptures, I know the basics of these signs, but I've always figured the Second Coming for me was more likely to happen at my death than at the Second Coming, and either way, my preparation ought to be the same - live the gospel, follow the prophets.
• I'm skeptical about folks claiming to have figured out interpretations of scripture (or apocryphal writings) that are new to the world, so I figure that makes me a good candidate to give this sister a reasoned opinion.
• But I also believe firmly that secret combinations are real, in operation at this moment, and present a real threat to our peaceful and prosperous existence in this country.  IMO, President Benson was no nut job.
• Back when Ordain Women was all over the news (but new to me), I decided rather than reading news stories about them, I'd go to their website and see what they said about themselves. As soon as the home page loaded, the Spirit communicated to me in no uncertain terms that this was a dangerous place.  It didn't tell me to leave, just gave me a sense that I needed to be on my guard. That experience has led me to trust that this can happen, to be open for such guidance, and to be skeptical and cautious when researching such things.  All this to say, I'm not in danger of going off the deep end after things like this.

Initial Impression

So, back to the book.  I read the first chapter - which was more about him, what he's doing, and why.  It raised some yellow flags (not orange or red, just yellow):

• Some phrases could be him setting the reader up to trust the author over prophets and over what they have already learned - maybe (or maybe they're just poorly worded - I would need to read more of his writings to figure out which).
• He seems to use scripture to discredit himself without realizing it.
• In the second chapter, he cites scripture that supports him, but skips over verses of the same passage that might encourage the reader to be skeptical of him (which makes me more skeptical).
• In some places, his wording is a bit condescending, assuming the reader doesn't know certain scriptures or understand their import, and telling the reader that he (the author) will educate the reader on these later. (This also made me wonder if he was trying to set up the reader to trust in the author more than themselves, prophets, the Church and its manuals, and/or the Holy Ghost - doesn't have to be the case, maybe the guy just thinks too much of himself, but it stood out to me.)
• And, when it comes to eagles as symbols, he doesn't even address Russia or Muscovy with its short-lived three-headed eagle (and I have no idea if there are others he missed).  Not sure that matters, but still.
• Mr. Rush is also in serious need of a (better) proofreader, editor, and typesetter / printer. (There's a chart / graph that is clearly missing key elements, and even if those elements were present, it would be meaningless without pages of citation to give the data points meaning.  It's kinda bizarre that it was left like that - and no fix or mention or anything on the website.)

Ezra's Eagle

And then I read the second chapter about Ezra's Eagle (have yet to read the third).  When I was done, there wasn't really anything that screamed "apostate" or "nut job" at me (though Mr. Rush comes off as both a Trump fan-boy and someone prone to over-the-top (to the point of absurd - seems to have been removed in his latest version found in the excerpt on the website) predictions about what might happen with Trump's presidency - which was on-going when the book was published (2015) and updated (2020)).  I didn't even find any particular reason to think he was wrong except (see the "mess up" comment next)...

After reading this chapter, wherein he seemed to mess up his counting of wings, feathers, and presidents - off by 1, I decided to go back to 2 Esdras and diagram what I read for myself, without regard for or consulting brother Rush's book. 

For those who don't know, the vision describes an eagle which has 3 heads, 12 wings (or large feathers), and 8 feathers (or small or "under" wings).  The interpretation describes the heads, wings, and feathers as "kings" that will rule the kingdom represented by the eagle.

Biggest problem - vagueness in sequence of the various wings/feathers ruling:

• Chapter 11 makes it clear that three of the larger wings rule first.
• After that, it suggests that the other 9 rule...
• But in v22 we see that the 12 wings (large feathers) and 2 feathers (little wings) are gone, so 2 of the 8 ruled in there somewhere, but that previous suggestion might make you think it was after the 9 wings.
• Then in chapter 12, in the interpretation, in v14 and 16, it says 12 kings - the 12 wings (large feathers) rule one after another.
• But then it says in v19 that the 8 "under wings" (little feathers) are kings who will reign for a short time.  "And two of them shall perish, when the middle time approacheth: four shall be kept for a while until the time of the ending thereof shall approach: but two shall be kept unto the end."  Which suggests that two of these kings who rule for a short time will be interspersed in with the 12 wings, despite it saying the 12 will rule "one after another".

None of that is insurmountable.  I wouldn't even consider it unusual for an ancient prophecy to not have details in order as we might expect them today.  One could be justified in arguing either way - 12 large rule, then the 8 small (forget the three heads for now); or 2 of the little are intermixed with the 12 large, then the rest of the little.  Neither is unreasonable.

Technical problem: in 11:13-17, but especially v17, it says of the second feather which ruled for a long time, "There shall none after thee attain unto thy time, neither unto the half thereof."  Brother Rush argues that this is FDR, who served 4 terms (but only 12 years, not 16).  Other presidents since him have served 2 terms, 8 years, which is more than half of 12.  And if you count 4 terms, they served 2, which is half as many, and the verse says they won't even get to half.  Brother Rush overcomes this by saying that Webster's 1828 dictionary defines "attain" "as exceeding or surpassing". The Webster's 1828 website doesn't agree. (But, "gain, overtake, arrive at" is the definition in Johnson's 1828 dictionary - Webster includes overtake, but also as a secondary possibility, barely mentioned.)

Now, I'm taking brother Rush's assertion that the first wing to rule this eagle is Herbert Hoover (see the excerpt for why - secret organization), and starting there.  For some reason, Rush himself screws up after wing #12 / president #14 (Barack Obama):

Duration	President	Wing / Feather
4	Herbert Hoover	Wing 1 of 12
12	Franklin D. Roosevelt	Wing 2 of 12
8	Harry S. Truman	Wing 3 of 12
8	Dwight D Eisenhower	Wing 4 of 12
2	John F. Kennedy	Feather 1 of 8
6	Lyndon B. Johnson	Wing 5 of 12
5	Richard M. Nixon	Feather 2 of 8
45	years to the middle
2.5	Gerald R. Ford	Wing 6 of 12
4	Jimmy Carter	Wing 7 of 12
8	Ronald Reagan	Wing 8 of 12
4	George Bush	Wing 9 of 12
8	Bill Clinton	Wing 10 of 12
8	George W. Bush	Wing 11 of 12
8	Barack Obama	Wing 12 of 12
1	Donald J. Trump	Feather 3 of 8
3	Joseph R. Biden	Feather 4 of 8
46.5	years since the middle

 

Maybe he screwed it up because he was using one of the weird translations.  Anywho, this screw up is why I stopped after chapter 2 and went back to 2 Esdras 11-12 to map it out for myself.  Ignoring that, let us start with Obama, the last wing.  At this point, all 12 wings and 2 of 8 feathers have ruled, leaving us 6 feathers.  Here's what the vision says about those:

• 11:24: two of the 6 remaining go and move under the head on the right (presumably ally themselves politically).  These are the two saved to the end (see above).
• Of the remaining 4, they wanted to rule (11:25)
• 11:26: (feather 3 of 😎 "there was one set up, but within a while it appeared no more" - this is no different from previous language.  But the translation Rush is using says "there was one set up, but shortly it appeared no more."  He takes the "shortly" to mean the presidency would be cut short - Trump's presidency.  No, "shortly" hasn't been used before, but had he gone to the interpretation, that makes it clear that all the little feathers will rule for a shorter time (12:20).  So Trump's rule didn't have to be cut short for "shortly" to apply. (Alternately, Rush somehow skipped this feather.)
• 11:27: (feather 4 of 😎 "A second also, and it was sooner away than the first."  This suggests that Biden's presidency will end before its full 4 years are up (if Rush's interpretation is correct, once his own error is fixed).  Rush actually completely misses either feather 3 or feather 4 - it's impossible to tell which - if he thinks Trump is feather 4, he misses #3; if he thinks Trump is feather 3, he misses 4.
• Having jumped over one feather without addressing it, he goes straight to feathers 5 and 6 (and this is where he poses some absurd scenarios that I'm not even going to bother addressing - we're past that anyway with Biden being feather 4).  Truly baffled that he could screw this part up even before Biden was elected.
• Note that feathers 3, 4, 5, and 6 are "kept for a while until the time of the ending thereof shall approach" (ending of the eagle).  This would suggest we're nearing the end.
• Feathers 7 & 8 will be "kept unto the end".

Anywho, if brother Rush is correct (after I've corrected his mistake), here's what's going to happen:

• Biden's presidency will be cut short - shorter than Trump's.
• Feathers 5 & 6 - two folk who want to rule (11:28) will be "eaten up" when the three heads awake with the larger one ruling and the two smaller ones its allies.
• The large head rules "with much oppression" and more power than any of its predecessors. "For these (the three heads) are they that shall accomplish her (the eagle's) wickedness, and that shall finish her last end."  (Whether this will be the next president after Biden or something else due to government collapse, heaven knows.)
• Suddenly the big giant head (sorry, couldn't resist) will die in its bed in pain (11:33 and 12:26)
• Then the right and left heads will rule together, but the right head will kill the left with the sword (11:34-35, 12:27-28)
• Then the right will also die by the sword (12:28) after being condemned by the Lord (11:36-12:2)
• Then the last two feathers (7 & 😎 will rule together "and their kingdom was small (likely means short), and full of uproar" (12:2)
• These two will be burned up along with the entire eagle (12:3, 29-33)

But don't worry, "For the rest of my people shall he deliver with mercy, those that have been preserved throughout my borders, and he shall make them joyful until the coming of the end, even the day of judgement, whereof I have spoken unto thee from the beginning."

Well, I guess I'll go read chapter 3 now.  Final thought: If brother Rush is seeking to set himself up above prophets or to lead people astray, starting the book with an interpretation of a vision from the apocrypha, where there's nothing from any prophet to contradict him, is a clever move to gain the reader's trust in his authenticity and insight.  (I'd be more convinced were it not for the glaring "feather 3/4 error" and the absurdities of what might happen if Trump's presidency were cut short.) 

I remember when a child of my friends graduated from school and they were a little confused. Then I told them to read it https://edubirdie.com/examples/high-school-graduation-speech/ it's a really great resource. Modern education is constantly changing and we must change along with it. Therefore, by reading current information, we keep pace with modernity.

Anywho, FWIW, and curious if anyone else has thoughts.  If you made it this far, you deserve a milkshake - go get one!

I agree with you. This is a really interesting post. Thank you!

Edited Tuesday at 01:57 PM by tomasgreenro