laronius Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 I was wondering if anyone had any insight into the wording used in this verse. I understand the general interpretation of having accepted God's plan in the premortal world (first estate) and then being faithful in this life (second estate) but was curious why it's described as keeping an estate. Wasn't sure if this phraseology imparted additional truths. Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Quote 4. archaic•literary a particular state, period, or condition in life. "programs for the improvement of man's estate" Archaic language is the explanation, as far as I know. Webster's 1828 Can't think of anything special about the terminology beyond what the older definitions suggest. askandanswer, laronius and Carborendum 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Just now, zil2 said: Can't think of anything special about the terminology beyond what the older definitions suggest. OK, I take that back. "They who kept their first estate" are those of us who came to earth. If Satan, et al, didn't keep their first estate - the state or condition in the pre-mortal realm, that would make a good starting point to argue that one day they will devolve and cease to be spirits. And perhaps those who "keep not their second estate" (the body) will also devolve. It seems contradictory (with all being resurrected and that being a permanent state), but then, it wouldn't be the first time God has kept the exceptions from his children. Alternately, these estates may not be "keeping one's spirit" or "keeping one's body" - perhaps they are "keeping one's place among the redeemed" or some such... Heaven knows. Anddenex and CV75 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 I'm a big fan of the American Heritage dictionary, and I find these definitions with regards to estate to be helpful to your question: Quote 4. The situation or circumstances of one's life: A child's estate gives way to the adult's estate. 5. Social position or rank, especially of high order. In relation to #4, we have our first estate. If we keep our first estate it then gives way to our second estate, and if we continue with this one might say the second estate gives way to the final estate meaning a kingdom of glory and increase. In relation to #5, this seems fitting also because of the wording here, "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." If we keep our social position/rank, then we receive a higher position or rank. If we think about scripture, those with bodies have power over those without bodies. Let's take Joseph Smith's teaching for this one: “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 181). (emphasis mine) Our social rank/position increases if we keep our first and second estate. If we keep not our first estate than our social rank and position decreases as we have no glory and no increase. In my opinion, this fits well with why estate may have been used rather than another word. CV75, zil2 and mikbone 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, laronius said: I was wondering if anyone had any insight into the wording used in this verse. I understand the general interpretation of having accepted God's plan in the premortal world (first estate) and then being faithful in this life (second estate) but was curious why it's described as keeping an estate. Wasn't sure if this phraseology imparted additional truths. Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. @zil2 I like to use this earlier dictionary as well: A compendious dictionary of the English language : Noah Webster : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive, which includes property and rank. But your 1828 Webster's also has this reference to "rank": So, the first estate can be read as the "spirit" order or class of God's children living in His presence, and the second estate the class that receives bodies that are in mortality, not in His presence. "Estate" of course also entails a responsibility or a stewardship as a God-given possession. The idea of "keeping" your class I think has to do with keeping the associated covenants. For example, Satan is still a spirit, but not in the presence of God and without light and covenants. And keeping your possession means you can also add to it, such as being "added upon" between the first and second, and the immortal glory added to the next (third) state, which is post-resurrection. And then there's the home-run! mikbone, laronius, Anddenex and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laronius Posted January 15 Author Report Share Posted January 15 3 hours ago, zil2 said: OK, I take that back. "They who kept their first estate" are those of us who came to earth. If Satan, et al, didn't keep their first estate - the state or condition in the pre-mortal realm, that would make a good starting point to argue that one day they will devolve and cease to be spirits. And perhaps those who "keep not their second estate" (the body) will also devolve. It seems contradictory (with all being resurrected and that being a permanent state), but then, it wouldn't be the first time God has kept the exceptions from his children. Alternately, these estates may not be "keeping one's spirit" or "keeping one's body" - perhaps they are "keeping one's place among the redeemed" or some such... Heaven knows. I had not considered that but I think you make a point. The fact that he can't keep what he already had (assuming that's a correct interpretation) must mean he has or soon will have less than before. That's not just a stopping of progression but rather digression. zil2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laronius Posted January 15 Author Report Share Posted January 15 2 hours ago, Anddenex said: I'm a big fan of the American Heritage dictionary, and I find these definitions with regards to estate to be helpful to your question: In relation to #4, we have our first estate. If we keep our first estate it then gives way to our second estate, and if we continue with this one might say the second estate gives way to the final estate meaning a kingdom of glory and increase. In relation to #5, this seems fitting also because of the wording here, "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." If we keep our social position/rank, then we receive a higher position or rank. If we think about scripture, those with bodies have power over those without bodies. Let's take Joseph Smith's teaching for this one: “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 181). (emphasis mine) Our social rank/position increases if we keep our first and second estate. If we keep not our first estate than our social rank and position decreases as we have no glory and no increase. In my opinion, this fits well with why estate may have been used rather than another word. I don't know why it never occurred to me to reference older dictionaries. That's why I come here and ask those that are quicker on the uptake. 😃 I think those definitions make perfect sense in the context of the verse. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 5 hours ago, laronius said: I was wondering if anyone had any insight into the wording used in this verse. I understand the general interpretation of having accepted God's plan in the premortal world (first estate) and then being faithful in this life (second estate) but was curious why it's described as keeping an estate. Wasn't sure if this phraseology imparted additional truths. Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. My opinion: I believe the Abraham scripture is a principle that has foundation in Isaiah and the principle that we continue line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. And that we can diminish line by line by line and precept by precept by precept. The idea of a damned sole is one that is limited that no longer continues to add upon or be added upon – line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. In the most recent words of our prophet, we need to think celestial because this estate (mortality) will have an effect on our resurrection – even to determine that we receive a different kind of physical body – that would give rise to the idea that the physical is added upon that witch is spiritual. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 14 minutes ago, Traveler said: that witch is spiritual. @zil2 needs to draw a spiritual witch now. Traveler, askandanswer, Carborendum and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 (edited) I have no idea whether this is what Joseph Smith was thinking of; but I think of "estates" in the Austenian (is that a word?) sense--a son in a Jane Austen novel inherits an estate which he can either a) work carefully and conservatively, thus earning a living for his family and perhaps even increasing the size of the estate over time and securing the status of his children and grandchildren; or b) cash out the estate immediately, spend the proceeds on riotous living, and die a pauper. I believe that in Pride and Prejudice, a subtle comparison is even drawn between Mr. Darcy (who manages his inherited estate well) and Mr. Bingley (who has wisely managed his assets and is seeking to grow his estate) versus Mr. Bennett (who took no thought to using his inherited life estate to build an inheritance for his daughters, until it was too late) and Mr. Lucas (who could have built an estate but instead spent his assets pursuing a knighthood and the trappings of luxury and left a relatively modest legacy for his own children, thus driving his daughter Charlotte into an unhappy marriage as she pursued financial security). Edited January 15 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 23 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: @zil2 needs to draw a spiritual witch now. I hope you're pleased with yourself. I've spent the day trying to figure out exactly what a "spiritual" witch looks like! I give up. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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