Entered into their exaltation

[mikbone]

Thanks to @JustAGuy and the following statement. 

Quote

So . . . maybe 1978 was the year Abel finally finally attained his exaltation, took his place upon a throne (as, IIRC, we are told that Abraham and some other patriarchs already have), and—presumably—attained godhood.

I kinda went down a Rabbit hole.  Thanks for the out of the box comment. 

D&C 132:22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives...

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he.

D&C 132:37 Abraham... Isaac... Jacob...  they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

So here are the questions?  "Continuation of the lives", what does it mean?

Does it mean that they get to continue another type of life?  or does it mean that they are now able to create spiritual children?  Or both or something else?

When did Jesus Christ enter into his exaltation?  Before the pre-mortal existance?  After the atonement? 

Not sure...  I know that this is esoteric.  It's not my fault though, @JustAGuy started it. 

Anyway, I think it also means that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have passed thorugh the veil (that the instructional symbolic event that we see at the end of the Temple Endowment was completed by them in its fullest context).  

 

Curiously, I don't think that Able entered into his exaltation yet.

Cain and Able are really interesting brothers.

When Able entered into Paradise, it was empty.  There were none of our bretheren there.  Likely he was greeted by Jehovah or Heavenly Father and was given extensive instruction as to how to run the place.  And that Jehovah would return later as we see recorded in D&C 138.  Able has seniority in Paradise and likely continues to do his duty with excellence.  I imagine that when Jehovah entered into Paradise that Able was one of the first spirits that He comforted.  

As for Cain,

Moses 5:37  When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And from David Patten's account written by Abraham O. Smoot and included in Spencer W. Kimball's book The Miracle of Forgiveness. *(which was essentially required reading of the youth back in my day).   

Quote

As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me. ... His head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die, and his mission was to destroy the souls of men. About the time he expressed himself thus, I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight.

We have this esoteric doctrine that Cain is somewhat like a transfigured being in that he cannot die, but unlike the Three Nephites in 3 Ne 28:38, Cain can suffer sorrow and pain, and can procreate.

If Cain still walks the Earth, he would be the obvious source of secret combinations.  

So Able has seniority and leads in Paradise like Cain has seniority and leads his followers here on Earth.  

If I was a good writer and had the time I would consider writing a fiction novel about Cain and his repentance / redemption that occurs around the mid 1900s.  Wherein the mark is lifted and he can once again farm the Earth.  He would be a very large and strong man with an abundance of knowledge and wisdom.  Hated and persued by the forces of evil.  Possibly with a temper that he is learning to keep in check.  Not a man that you would like to get into an tussle with.  I'd give some background that he was a vegetarian.  That he misunderstood Able's intentions.  Since fences were probably not a thing back in Cain's day, there probably was some un-intended antimosity between the brothers when Able's heard would wander into Cain's fields and partake.  Able probably offered to give Cain some of his heard, but being that he was a vegitarian and irritated with the animals wandering into his land and harvest, Cain wanted nothing to do with Able or his animals.  And then one thing led to another...

Edited January 29 by mikbone

[CV75]

38 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Thanks to @JustAGuy and the following statement. 

I kinda went down a Rabbit hole.  Thanks for the out of the box comment. 

D&C 132:22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives...

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he.

D&C 132:37 Abraham... Isaac... Jacob...  they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

So here are the questions?  "Continuation of the lives", what does it mean?

Does it mean that they get to continue another type of life?  or does it mean that they are now able to create spiritual children?  Or both or something else?

When did Jesus Christ enter into his exaltation?  Before the pre-mortal existance?  After the atonement? 

Not sure...  I know that this is esoteric.  It's not my fault though, @JustAGuy started it. 

Anyway, I think it also means that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have passed thorugh the veil (that the instructional symbolic event that we see at the end of the Temple Endowment was completed by them in its fullest context).  

 

Curiously, I don't think that Able entered into his exaltation yet.

Cain and Able are really interesting brothers.

When Able entered into Paradise, it was empty.  There were none of our bretheren there.  Likely he was greeted by Jehovah or Heavenly Father and was given extensive instruction as to how to run the place.  And that Jehovah would return later as we see recorded in D&C 138.  Able has seniority in Paradise and likely continues to do his duty with excellence.  I imagine that when Jehovah entered into Paradise that Able was one of the first spirits that He comforted.  

As for Cain,

Moses 5:37  When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And from David Patten's account written by Abraham O. Smoot and included in Spencer W. Kimball's book The Miracle of Forgiveness. *(which was essentially required reading of the youth back in my day).   

We have this esoteric doctrine that Cain is somewhat like a transfigured being in that he cannot die, but unlike the Three Nephites in 3 Ne 28:38, Cain can suffer sorrow and pain.

If Cain still walks the Earth he would be the obvious source of secret combinations.  

So Able has seniority and leads in Paradise like Cain has seniority and leads his followers here on Earth.  

If I was a good writer and had the time I would consider writing a fiction novel about Cain and his repentance / redemption that occurs around the mid 1900s.

It seems to me that children of Adam and Eve were born, lived and died before Cain and Abel arrived on the scene, since Eve speaks of the joy of our redemption upon hearing the teachings of the angel and the witness of the Holy Ghost in Moses 5. She was likely not referring only to herself and her husband, and in knowing good and evil, had already witnessed death, not only of the sacrificed animals, but of some of their children. Abel could still have been placed as a ruler over his "elder brethren" as was Nephi, Joseph, etc.

The idea of Cain never dying is interesting to me in that never dying amounts to never knowing the joy of redemption. At least the Three Nephites will someday "die" if only for a millisecond.

If Elijah Able's temple work has been done, he could be exalted by now (why not?). And I can see him telling Cain in no uncertain terms, "Thanks alot for the bad rap!"

Edited January 29 by CV75

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Curiously, I don't think that Able entered into his exaltation yet.

...

When Able entered into Paradise, it was empty.  There were none of our bretheren there.  Likely he was greeted by Jehovah or Heavenly Father and was given extensive instruction as to how to run the place.  And that Jehovah would return later as we see recorded in D&C 138.  Able has seniority in Paradise and likely continues to do his duty with excellence.  I imagine that when Jehovah entered into Paradise that Able was one of the first spirits that He comforted.  

It's an interesting idea, but... Mosiah 15:21-24.  I suppose Abel could have been an exception and left in Paradise to continue running the place, but I think it even more likely that the presidency of that place could have been handed off to another so that Abel could finally have his rest.  I think it even more likely that Abel's exaltation is based on Abel's advancement (and the Lord's will).

Finally, just because Abel was the first murder victim does not necessarily mean his was the first death.  We have no record of another, and perhaps it would have been important enough to note, but then, the Bible doesn't note the number of children of Adam and Eve who were born already - latter-day teachings say they had many children, who also had children before Cain murdered Abel (Moses 5:2-3).  So there could have been death by accident, disease, or whatever prior to Abel.

 

[zil2]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If Elijah Able's temple work has been done, he could be exalted by now (why not?).

Except that it's unlikely he's been resurrected (though I suppose exceptions can be made).  In theory, he will have to wait for the Second Coming for that, like all others who died after Christ (but we're told Moroni is an exception to this, so as I said, there could be others).

[CV75]

17 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Except that it's unlikely he's been resurrected (though I suppose exceptions can be made).  In theory, he will have to wait for the Second Coming for that, like all others who died after Christ (but we're told Moroni is an exception to this, so as I said, there could be others).

Yes, I think there are instances where others have been resurrected after the Restoration of the sealing keys and yet prior to the Second Coming.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Finally, just because Abel was the first murder victim does not necessarily mean his was the first death.  We have no record of another, and perhaps it would have been important enough to note, but then, the Bible doesn't note the number of children of Adam and Eve who were born already - latter-day teachings say they had many children, who also had children before Cain murdered Abel (Moses 5:2-3).  So there could have been death by accident, disease, or whatever prior to Abel.

Looks like there were 2 generations before Cain and Able Moses 5:3.  But Moses 5:12-16 gives the impression that the first generations did not believe and were lost.

It’s likely that Able was the first righteous Son.  

Able likely was the first death as well.  They were of hardy stock and long lived.

Edited January 29 by mikbone

[Anddenex]

So here are the questions?  "Continuation of the lives", what does it mean?

My understanding of this verse currently, is that it simply means that our lives will continue beyond of the grave as exalted beings. It does open the idea of a continuation of God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of the sons and daughters of God. Speculation of course.

When did Jesus Christ enter into his exaltation?  Before the pre-mortal existance?  After the atonement? 

He is already there. There was never a time where he was without the Father (so to speak). My thoughts entertain Christ's baptism. Some things just need to be done, but he was already there baptism didn't change his glory, his body.

Curiously, I don't think that Able entered into his exaltation yet.

I'm inline with other thoughts in this thread. Able probably was not the first to die of Adam and Eve's sons and daughters. It's humorous to me that I never really thought about the first person to die and being alone in the Spirit World. That had to have been a very interesting experience, seeing how often I have read and heard from others how they are looking forward to the family/friend embrace once they pass on from this earth life.

Able, at my current knowledge, would be no different than Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Nephi, Sam, Lehi, and any other righteous saint. I believe it is doctrine that all who were righteous (kept their first estate) would have been resurrected after Christ was resurrected. We know that Able was a righteous man, the Lord appears to make that known to Cain. There is no reason to think Able wasn't resurrected as with others, and that he is currently doing what others are doing also who died before Christ and his resurrection.

If Cain still walks the Earth, he would be the obvious source of secret combinations.  

That is an interesting thought regarding Cain. I don't have much to say with regards to Cain. I'm more inclined to believe the apostles experience as noted in the Miracle of Forgiveness. What an awful punishment, but for one to introduce murder and other things it doesn't seem to bad either.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

It's humorous to me that I never really thought about the first person to die and being alone in the Spirit World. That had to have been a very interesting experience,

Yeah.  But Able probably was greeted by Jehovah or was soon visited by him and given a run down of how to run the place and what to expect.

Unfortunately, in Spirit Prison, this didn't happen.  Fend for yourself.  Why are we here?  What are the rules?  How do I get out of here.  Must have been lots of weeping, whailing, and nashing of teeth (spiritually speaking of course).  The events in D&C 138 must have been very welcoming to the majority of the inhabitants. 

[zil2]

How was Abel able to deal with being alone in the spirit world?  Perhaps the place was empty and Abel kept busy by building a house with a gable. Perhaps Abel had an adorable pet sable (they would have shorter lives, so some may have died before him) and told it parables while he made a table to sit at and a chair to sit on.  Perhaps Abel built a stable stable in which to keep his friends the sables.

[zil2]

40 minutes ago, mikbone said:

whailing

The killing of sick whales.

[laronius]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

When did Jesus Christ enter into his exaltation?  Before the pre-mortal existance?  After the atonement? 

If we had to check all of the boxes of what it means to be exalted I would say resurrection was the final step.

[mikbone]

8 minutes ago, laronius said:

If we had to check all of the boxes of what it means to be exalted I would say resurrection was the final step.

Nah.  Everyone that comes to Earth will be resurrected.  Not everyone will be exalted.

[laronius]

6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Nah.  Everyone that comes to Earth will be resurrected.  Not everyone will be exalted.

I don't mean it's the only box but for Jesus it was His final box. He had already become perfect in every other way.

Edited January 30 by laronius

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Nah.  Everyone that comes to Earth will be resurrected.  Not everyone will be exalted.

That does not mean that resurrection isn't one of the steps required for exaltation.  Indeed, Christ's own words indicate it is.

[laronius]

Matt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I don't see why righteous Abel would not have been resurrected by now. If their time is anything like our time the gospel should have already been preached to everyone of that dispensation. I would think his work was done.

[Traveler]

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

.....

When did Jesus Christ enter into his exaltation?  ...

...................

I believe that Jesus Christ (Jehovah) was exalted in the pre-existence (first estate).  Several reasons – here are a few:  The name or title of Jehovah implies exaltation as does the title “The Son” as a reference to one of three exalted entities of the G-dhead.  We are also given understanding that the creation was carried out by G-d which is spoken of by John as the “Word”.  Nephi gives witness of the condescension of G-d to come and walk among men to suffer even unto death to redeem mankind.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

9 hours ago, laronius said:

Matt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I don't see why righteous Abel would not have been resurrected by now. If their time is anything like our time the gospel should have already been preached to everyone of that dispensation. I would think his work was done.

This seems to give rise to another question, though.  We have skeletons of infants and children who died pre-Christ.  But I had always understood that the non-Telestial dead who died pre-Christ were resurrected shortly after He was.  So, why weren’t these little ones resurrected?  Is *every* pre-Christian grave modern archaeologists find, the resting place of a wicked person?

One solution to this that I’ve been toying with, is that while resurrection *might* in some cases entail the re-gathering/re-assimilation of all of the specific atoms/molecules that went down into the grave (especially when doing so constitutes a sign to others, such as Christ’s own resurrection)—that that may not *always* be the case; and resurrection may actually involve the selective retrieval of some body material that was discarded throughout one’s life (if *every* molecule that was ever part of/eaten by us came back in the resurrection, we’d be physically enormous.)  

Thus, I suspect that the fact that we today have remains that are traceable to a particular individual, doesn’t necessarily mean that the individual has not yet been resurrected.  Peter, for example—we know he’s been resurrected.  Joseph Smith saw him.  He got ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood by him.  And yet, I think the evidence is reasonably strong that the 1st century skeleton found under St. Peter’s Basilica and analyzed in the mid 20th century, does originate with the apostle Peter.  But then, it must be that there isn’t enough of him there at the Vatican to even call it his “body” anymore.  Certainly, the soft tissues are all gone.  Whatever’s still there is like . . . nail clippings.  The nonessential stuff.

Edited January 30 by Just_A_Guy

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

18 hours ago, mikbone said:

Looks like there were 2 generations before Cain and Able Moses 5:3.  But Moses 5:12-16 gives the impression that the first generations did not believe and were lost.

It’s likely that Able was the first righteous Son.  

Able likely was the first death as well.  They were of hardy stock and long lived.

Yes, it sounds like Adam and Even had there family, all the kids they thought they would have. Then when they were grand parents they had two sons in their old age, like Abraham. People seem to have this idea that Adam and Eve had kids for centuries. That is impossible because even Eve would have a limited amount of eggs, just like every woman. She could only have had kids for around 30 years.

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This seems to give rise to another question, though.  We have skeletons of infants and children who died pre-Christ.  But I had always understood that the non-Telestial dead who died pre-Christ were resurrected shortly after He was.  So, why weren’t these little ones resurrected?  Is *every* pre-Christian grave modern archaeologists find, the resting place of a wicked person?

One solution to this that I’ve been toying with, is that while resurrection *might* in some cases entail the re-gathering/re-assimilation of all of the specific atoms/molecules that went down into the grave (especially when doing so constitutes a sign to others, such as Christ’s own resurrection)—that that may not *always* be the case; and resurrection may actually involve the selective retrieval of some body material that was discarded throughout one’s life (if *every* molecule that was ever part of/eaten by us came back in the resurrection, we’d be physically enormous.)  

Thus, I suspect that the fact that we today have remains that are traceable to a particular individual, doesn’t necessarily mean that the individual has not yet been resurrected.  Peter, for example—we know he’s been resurrected.  Joseph Smith saw him.  He got ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood by him.  And yet, I think the evidence is reasonably strong that the 1st century skeleton found under St. Peter’s Basilica and analyzed in the mid 20th century, does originate with the apostle Peter.  But then, it must be that there isn’t enough of him there at the Vatican to even call it his “body” anymore.  Certainly, the soft tissues are all gone.  Whatever’s still there is like . . . nail clippings.  The nonessential stuff.

Another possibility arises with what the future holds specifically for children who die. Some believe they will still have the chance to mature to adulthood, perhaps during the Millennium, before they are resurrected. Maybe a Lazarus type regeneration, temporary in nature.

But I also agree with your assessment that resurrection does not have to utilize the final remains of an individual.

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Yes, it sounds like Adam and Even had there family, all the kids they thought they would have. Then when they were grand parents they had two sons in their old age, like Abraham. People seem to have this idea that Adam and Eve had kids for centuries. That is impossible because even Eve would have a limited amount of eggs, just like every woman. She could only have had kids for around 30 years.

All kinds of assumption there.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

17 minutes ago, zil2 said:

All kinds of assumption there.

Were they human or not?

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Were they human or not?

Are the scriptures which say they lived nearly a thousand years true or not?

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

One solution to this that I’ve been toying with, is that while resurrection *might* in some cases entail the re-gathering/re-assimilation of all of the specific atoms/molecules that went down into the grave (especially when doing so constitutes a sign to others, such as Christ’s own resurrection)—that that may not *always* be the case; and resurrection may actually involve the selective retrieval of some body material that was discarded throughout one’s life (if *every* molecule that was ever part of/eaten by us came back in the resurrection, we’d be physically enormous.)  

Yup, I agree.  Dust to dust.  Its all the same stuff.  If God can turn Hydrogen into Gold via nucleosynthesis, then He can clothe a spirit with any physical matter He chooses.  So many bodies lost at sea or cremated ashes thrown to the winds do not require God to hunt down each particle and piece them back together.

Joseph & Hyrum’s remains have been recovered and reburied.

D&C 138: 40, 50-51 are pretty good verses to support that Abel is resurrected.

Although I’m sure I could wait a few thousand years without a body as long as I was doing something worthwhile and understood the future plans.  I see the beauty of delayed gratification.

[mikbone]

58 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Were they human or not?

Yup.  But they were perfect specimens.  No genetic defects.  No exposure to toxins during their lifetime.  Healthy living and spiritual well being.

Women are born with 1-2 million viable eggs.  I cant imagine living 900 years and 840 of those with debilitating arthritis…

I assume Adam and Even continued making love during their lives.  And she probably hit menopause in her 500’s.

Moses 6: 10 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his own image, and called his name Seth.

11 And the days of Adam, after he had begotten Seth, were eight hundred years, and he begat many sons and daughters;

https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-complex-truth-about-junk-dna-20210901/

What if 98% of our genome is not junk?  What if God was able to turn on 5% of the genome of the ancients?

Edited January 30 by mikbone

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

57 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Are the scriptures which say they lived nearly a thousand years true or not?

Biology does not change; Women have a set number of eggs, it was no different for Adam and Eve. Therefore, it is very unlikely that they were still having kids after a hundred years or more.