Jehovah versus Jesus

[Carborendum]

16 hours ago, Vort said:

Ananias and Sapphira were killed, not because they lied or didn't consecrate, but because they broke their covenants. Death, spiritual and (if unrepented of) eternal, and in their case physical, is the inevitable result of covenant-breaking.

9 hours ago, Maverick said:

The point is that God struck them dead for what they did in similar way that God killed people for their wickedness in OT times. 

The verse says specifically that they lied to the Holy Ghost.  So, it is clear that they committed something far worse than the text would indicate.  This is reminiscent of what Cain did when he offered sacrifice.  We're not really sure what that offense was or even what the punishment was.  But it was "more than (Cain could) bear."

16 hours ago, Vort said:

You may choose to view it however you wish. The facts do not change. And the facts are that God will forgive all who sincerely repent and grant them place in His kingdom, and will cut off everyone else. That's not revenge; that's the nature of reality—or, if you prefer, eternal law.

Yup.

I will always punish my children in varying levels according to the severity of their behavior.  We don't really understand the level of evil some people stoop to.  We've lived in such a prosperous and peaceful society -- we really have no concept of the depths of evil in humanity.

So, for us to judge G-d for what He, in His infinite wisdom deems necessary is somehow unconscionable is pure hubris.

[Maverick]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

it is clear that they committed something far worse than the text would indicate.  This is reminiscent of what Cain did when he offered sacrifice.  We're not really sure what that offense was or even what the punishment was.  But it was "more than (Cain could) bear."

This is pure speculation and really beside the point. God struck them dead for what they did, just like he killed people in OT times. That’s the point. 

[Anddenex]

On 12/1/2024 at 11:57 AM, laronius said:

Having said that, there is such a thing as righteous fear that can be healthy but it's more a fear of letting God down than Him destroying us.

Your thought reminds me of this verse that I have pondered a lot. It goes against the grain of the idea that using "fear" is a bad thing.

Mormon 9: 27, "O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him." (emphasis mine)

Not just fear, but with trembling. I, personally, think the verse is correlated with the following passage of scripture as specified by Jesus, Matthew 10: 28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (emphasis mine).

God is a God of his word, and no amount of whaling and gnashing of teeth is going to change the firm decree of a just and loving God.

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Your thought reminds me of this verse that I have pondered a lot. It goes against the grain of the idea that using "fear" is a bad thing.

Mormon 9: 27, "O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him." (emphasis mine)

Not just fear, but with trembling. I, personally, think the verse is correlated with the following passage of scripture as specified by Jesus, Matthew 10: 28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (emphasis mine).

God is a God of his word, and no amount of whaling and gnashing of teeth is going to change the firm decree of a just and loving God.

I think part of it includes the fear of failure. There are a few verses in scripture that make me literally cringe and they all have to do with falling short of exaltation. 

[Ruben]

On 11/26/2024 at 4:21 PM, LDSGator said:

@Ruben-

I admire you for asking these questions. It means you are thinking about and debating the issues. 

Thank you LDSGator. 

I can easily accept that Jehovah is terrible to his enemies as well as merciful to those who love him (even though this is a very human characteristic), what I find difficult to understand is the fact that He punishes children with the same cruelty with which He treats adults while Jesus said: "let the children come to me..."

Doesn't that seem like a contradiction to you?

[laronius]

4 hours ago, Ruben said:

Thank you LDSGator. 

I can easily accept that Jehovah is terrible to his enemies as well as merciful to those who love him (even though this is a very human characteristic), what I find difficult to understand is the fact that He punishes children with the same cruelty with which He treats adults while Jesus said: "let the children come to me..."

Doesn't that seem like a contradiction to you?

The other day I had a brief encounter with a guy and his four year old son. In that brief encounter I witnessed how absolutely terrible of a parent he must be in how he treated his son. I knew it wasn't a unique experience because it didn't faze the child at all. Afterwards I got to thinking how likely it was that that child would grow up to be just like his father and how his father likely grew up in a similar situation. And I wondered about how could this life be a fair test for them. It's true they still have their agency but so much of who we are is shaped by people and external forces that we have zero control over.

The only answer I could come up with is twofold. First that we only see an extremely small snippet of a person's existence and second how infinite and eternal the atonement of Jesus Christ truly is. Somehow everything will turn out more than fair and we will all acknowledge that God is perfectly just and merciful. I know that explanation doesn't tie everything up in a nice bow but if it did faith would not be as important as it is. There is a reason why Joseph Smith taught one of the three things necessary to have faith in God is "A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes." So much rides on that knowledge.

Edited December 3, 2024 by laronius

[LDSGator]

7 hours ago, Ruben said:

Doesn't that seem like a contradiction to you?

Yup, it’s something I struggle with as well. Like I mentioned before, I try to focus on the mercy and love shown by Christ in the new testament. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by LDSGator

[SilentOne]

7 hours ago, Ruben said:

I can easily accept that Jehovah is terrible to his enemies as well as merciful to those who love him (even though this is a very human characteristic), what I find difficult to understand is the fact that He punishes children with the same cruelty with which He treats adults while Jesus said: "let the children come to me..."

Doesn't that seem like a contradiction to you?

Where/when does he punish children?

[zil2]

16 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

Where/when does he punish children?

Presumably he's thinking of the command to kill everyone, including children, in [that one city that I never remember the name of].  But one could also talk about all the cities destroyed among the Nephites at the time of Christ's crucifixion.  Or in pretty much every war ever described in scripture, even if children aren't explicitly mentioned.  Or in pretty much every war, famine, and other difficulty experienced by man throughout the history of the world...

[Ruben]

50 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

Where/when does he punish children?

Numbers 31:17

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Joshua 7:24-25

24 And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. 25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

 

 

[LDSGator]

@Ruben-I want you to remember that you aren’t alone. There are a lot of people who struggle with questions like this. 

Sometimes it‘s important to remember that we can’t read minds. While we sit in the pews in church we might think everyone else doesn’t struggle with doubt, these issues, etc, but you truly never know what’s going on inside someone’s mind.  

Edited December 3, 2024 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, SilentOne said:

Where/when does he punish children?

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Presumably he's thinking of the command to kill everyone, including children, in [that one city that I never remember the name of].  But one could also talk about all the cities destroyed among the Nephites at the time of Christ's crucifixion.  Or in pretty much every war ever described in scripture, even if children aren't explicitly mentioned.  Or in pretty much every war, famine, and other difficulty experienced by man throughout the history of the world...

The first point is to remember that the words "sons and daughters" can just as easily refer to adult children, not necessarily minors.

I'm also not of the opinion that all children are "innocent".  So, even if these were minors...

While we have the age of accountability, that doesn't mean that children cannot pickup evil habits from their parents, they will still be taught evil traits from their parents.  I've come across way too many little children who have been corrupted by their parents.

I've taken in (as have several of my extended family) minor children who were raised completely wrong.  And it is a struggle to work with them.  If we lived in a more righteous society, there may be hope to "heal" them.  But without an entire society, including media, government, school system, other children, and entertainment, pushing such children in the direction of righteousness, there is little hope to make lasting change.

Remember that familial relations were different than today.  Today we see children rebelling against parents all the time.  Sometimes for good.  Most often for bad.

Back in the day, children did as the parents did.  We see some isolated instances (like Laman and Lemuel) who follow not after their fathers.  But that was an exception at a time of social upheaval.  It was not the norm.

The LORD (not man) decided was that death was a mercy to them rather than a punishment.

Such thoughts are somehow horrific to us (as they should be) because we have an innate sense of "killing a human being is wrong."  But with the Lord, it is done with full wisdom and knowledge of past, present, and future.

If he knew that any one of those children would grow up and eventually repent, He would have given that chance to them.  But He knows the end from the beginning.  And it was their time.

One may just as well wonder why children die of disease.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

Alma, in the Book of Mormon explains to his son that there were changes in both heaven and earth when Jesus was killed for the sins of the world and resurrected.  It is my understanding that prior to Jesus’ resurrection the laws and covenants looked forward to that part of the atonement where Christ would suffer for sins and overcome the world through his resurrection.  After that part of the atonement, the laws and covenants would be to participate in and celebrate being made free.

I am impressed that G-d does not change but because of the fulfillment of the atonement that the previous laws, ordinances and covenants, of necessity, were fulfilled and a new order was established in preparation for the resurrection and exaltation of those that have kept the old covenants as well as those that are established in mortality under the new Covenant.   Under the new covenant mankind could see G-d in a new light.

 

The Traveler

[HaggisShuu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzmVm_Jea9Q

I found this video this other day and think it may be an insightful watch to help answer the OP's question. (In case my link doesn't work, the videos title is called "Why was the atonement necessary? The Science of the atonement by Cleon Skousen" 

It answered alot of questions for me about how Mercy and Justice work together and the how God works with them. 
 

I found it quite impactful and topical.

Edited December 3, 2024 by HaggisShuu

[Ruben]

On 11/26/2024 at 3:43 PM, Vort said:

This is a fiction. The Old Testament's Jehovah is not cruel. Unlike basically all of the pagan gods, Jehovah expected His people to be like Him—kind, patient, loving, generous.

Is it difficult to think that the Jesus of the New Testament who did not condemn adulterous women was the same one who in the Old Testament had them stoned?

 

John 8:7
...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

How do you explain this to me without beating around the bush?

Edited December 10, 2024 by Ruben

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Ruben said:

Is it difficult to think that the Jesus of the New Testament who did not condemn adulterous women was the same one who in the Old Testament had them stoned?

 

John 8:7
...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

How do you explain this to me without beating around the bush?

If you look for evil, you'll find it... even with God.

Let me give two parts to this specific situation.

Part 1: Stoning

Under Roman law, it was illegal to exercise capital punishment except for the capital crimes that the Romans deemed worthy of death.  Adultery was not one of those laws.  So, no Jew was allowed to stone a person for adultery under Roman rule.

These "lawyers" wanted to trap Jesus into either denying the Law of Moses or breaking the Roman law.  Jesus saw through their ruse and found a third path that did not deny the Law of Moses (which was still in force under Jewish tradition) while avoiding the penalty of the Roman law (it was not His time to die just yet).

Part 2: The Gospel of Repentance

Even after Moses led them across the Red Sea, the children of Israel were still of the mindset of being slaves in Egypt.  Just as abuse victims somehow want to be with the abuser again (the details of which I won't go into) the Israelites wanted to return to being slaves.  "At least with Pharoah we had food."  They were so used to being slaves that they didn't even think about growing food themselves as free people.  Their mentality was messed up.

The old Soviet Union died.  Yet many of the elderly who knew nothing else felt like they had lost something.  They yearned for their masters to return.  I recall interviews where they said, "We used to have food every day.  But then these capitalists came to power and we have to work a full day to eat."  Yes, welcome to freedom.  You are responsible for you.  But the slave mindset is strong in ancient times as it is today.

****************************************

The Law of Moses was not just a spiritual law.  It contained secular laws.  It contained liturgical directives (like the two cloths thing).  It contained guidance on social order.  It was couched as an all-or-nothing mindset because that is what slaves would understand.   The hope was that through practice, many of them would actually pick up on the Spirit of those laws.  Some few did.   Most did not.

Each apostasy of the OT (and there were many that were not of the typical "dispensations" that we think of) began with the idea that we should forgive and show mercy.  But they fell into apostasy.  It was not just "a few people who went inactive".  It was the bulk of the people who fully apostatized into idolatry. 

When the Prophets applied the law more strictly, they fell in line. But when there was more mercy, they tended to fall away again.

When Christ was born, they still had people who had that slave mindset.  They complained, but were content with their Roman masters.  They were an enslaved people who would want to crucify a man for saying, "Hey, it would be really great if we were all nice to each other." 

But even so, there was a large minority of the chosen people who were looking for the Lord's promises to be fulfilled.  It was these people that the Lord was speaking to. To these people who were ready, these happy, longing, few... He taught the gospel of repentance, forgiveness, judgment, mercy, & faith.  They were ready.  They received it with full hearts. 

They were of a critical mass that could preserve Christianity into the next era and even continue a diminished form of it throughout the great apostasy.  And it barely survived as it was.

Then there was the great restoration. And it barely survived as it was.  After multiple attempts to exterminate the Mormons (both officially and unofficially) we survived by the Grace of God. 

Here were a bunch of people who were peaceful, law-abiding, family oriented, industrious, G-d-fearing people who improved every settlement that they lived in.  Yet people wanted to exterminate them just as they wanted to crucify Christ.  That is still the kind of world we live in still today.

Yes, there are times to be strict and even harsh.  Other times, we want to be merciful.  Wouldn't it be great if we always knew which to apply at any given time?

While we may or may not do our best to figure out which to apply at the appropriate times, the Lord knows the end from the beginning.  And He always knows which way is best.

For us to sit here and Monday morning quarterback and second guess every play of the game is highly disrespectful to the Lord.  It shows a complete lack of faith. And we display tremendous ignorance and pride to think that we know better than G-d.

[laronius]

3 hours ago, Ruben said:

Is it difficult to think that the Jesus of the New Testament who did not condemn adulterous women was the same one who in the Old Testament had them stoned?

 

John 8:7
...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

How do you explain this to me without beating around the bush?

I think that's a fair question. The fact is the law of Moses said more about the people than their God.

When Jesus was asked about divorce He said this:

Matt 29:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What we see here is a good example of God altering the administration of His laws according to the conditions of the hearts of the people. In some cases God is stricter and in others more lenient. (Interestingly, this specific leniency is still in place though not God's optimum condition)

Edited December 10, 2024 by laronius

[Maverick]

11 hours ago, Ruben said:

Is it difficult to think that the Jesus of the New Testament who did not condemn adulterous women was the same one who in the Old Testament had them stoned?

 

John 8:7
...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

How do you explain this to me without beating around the bush?

You’ll notice that Jesus didn’t say that it was wrong to stone her. Instead he said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

He was pointing out their hypocrisy and whatever he wrote in the sand caused them to turn away. My theory is that he listed sins that they were guilty of that were also punishable by death under the law of Moses.

The truth is that it really doesn’t matter whether she was stoned to death and then suffered in hell for her sins or if she later died of natural causes and suffered the same fate. If she ended up having to suffer for her sins anyway, being stoned to death would have been part of that and would have actually lessened her suffering in hell. 

Perhaps she ended up fully repenting and turned away from all of her sins after this incident. Then again, perhaps she didn’t and she ended up suffering in hell anyway. We aren’t told what happened to her. 

Edited December 10, 2024 by Maverick