Tarot cards

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I think you misread my post. I don't have a problem with Aleister Crowley. I actually own "The Book of the Law". I just meant to say that he's my only experience with anything involving divinity, tarot, magic etc so I can't say anything really in-depth about the subject since my knowledge of it is quite limited.

I used the term "crime" in a facetious manner. I was trying to say that tarot cards are just unproductive uses of time, not harmful or sinful.

Just for the record, what does my television choices or taste in literature have to do with the subject? Were you trying to be insulting with that comment? The internet makes it difficult to convey tone at times so I have to be sure, I apologize if I made too much of it.

Sorry I misunderstood your opinion of Crowley, and also that I didn't understand you were using the word "crime" facetiously.

About TV and literature, I did not mean to criticize your choice of reading or viewing material. All I was trying to say is that if one is going to criticize card games as a waste of time, one may as well also say that watching television or reading novels for entertainment are a waste of time. I myself prefer to read or watch movies, but I think that playing card games is a form of social interaction, which is more than can be said for TV, and I don't have a problem with people playing cards even though it's not my "cup of tea."

Didn't mean to offend.

[rdiaz]

I had my first experience/exposure to Tarot Cards and their interpretations while visiting a good bookstore two blocks from where I had just moved to in Venice. The bookstore where the readings/workshop was held has a great number of very good books segregated by religion and philosophy, so I plan to visit there quite often.

What was most striking about this experience was how good, sensible, intelligent, successful grown men and women would place such great faith in the random drawing of and interpretations of the cards that they were dealt with, while at the same time making obvious disparaging remarks about Catholicism and Christian principles about what is most important in life such as Motherhood and Fatherhood.

In fact, the lady sitting next to me exhibited such great faith in the correctness of the cards revealing myself to her and the group -- by her constant advice on what the cards said about myself even though she had never met me before in her life and will probably never see me again (but somehow the Tarot Cards showed my true self to her, a complete stranger)-- that I thought of the scriptures that state that our generation was "ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth," "trust not in the arm of the flesh," and finally, "doctrines of seducing spirits and commandments of men." The gospel way of life did not seem important to these people who seemed basically good and sincere(?) in their attempts to better themselves and find happiness and fulfillment, so it seemed they chose another a to find meaning to their lives.

Sadly, I believe once we supplant the Lord and seek to counsel Him indirectly through a medium such as giving and seeking advice via Tarot Cards, we open ourselves to suggestion from and susceptibility to the whisperings and machinations of the adversary.

But don't we experience that every day from other people, the media, and from our daily temptations and trials?

The Book of Mormon states to "trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments," because then we are taught by the Holy Ghost, who we are told we can trust because the Spirit tells of things "as they really are" and "really will be."

[GaySaint]

Since this subject popped back up I’ll chime in.

I’ve read tarot cards since I my first year of college (almost ten years ago! Yikes!), as an active member of the church. My bishops knew about my “talent” in both my student ward and my home ward. It was never an issue when I went on a mission.

I think a lot of people don’t understand what the cards are or why they relate so seemingly well to people. They don’t “predict the future” (in fact, the Tarot Certification Board of America has it in their code of ethics that this is not what the cards are for). Part of the tarot includes finding balance in all aspects of your life, including spirituality.

If you lay out the major arcana (the major cards of the tarot deck) they tell the story of the Fool, and his quest for knowledge. His journey has aspects that each of us experience on our own life’s journey, which is why they relate so well to everyone. A good tarot reader doesn’t give advice, but empowers their “clients” to make their own decisions by helping them outline the possibilities of their choices. I don’t view this as divination any more than a patriarch who lays out what is possible for someone in their life if they make choices that keep them in harmony with the teachings of the church.

That said, I do think it is an issue for anyone to put something before God, and if someone is seeking answers to their lives in cards INSTEAD OF seeking the answers from God, then that is no different if they were to put anything in their life before God (which seems to break that “thou shall not have any other gods before me” commandment).

I do think the tarot can help people focus on the areas of their life that are out of balance, or that they need to focus on, but only a bad reader will tell someone what choice they should make.

I'm very willing to discuss this issue further, and my experiences as a reader (both in and out of the church) if anyone wishes...

[Elphaba]

I’ve read tarot cards since I my first year of college (almost ten years ago! Yikes!), as an active member of the church. My bishops knew about my “talent” in both my student ward and my home ward. It was never an issue when I went on a mission.

That shocks me. The Church I grew up in would never have allowed such a thing.

I'm not criticizing you or your bishops. I am just shocked.

I think a lot of people don’t understand what the cards are or why they relate so seemingly well to people. They don’t “predict the future” (in fact, the Tarot Certification Board of America has it in their code of ethics that this is not what the cards are for). Part of the tarot includes finding balance in all aspects of your life, including spirituality.

If you lay out the major arcana (the major cards of the tarot deck) they tell the story of the Fool, and his quest for knowledge. His journey has aspects that each of us experience on our own life’s journey, which is why they relate so well to everyone. A good tarot reader doesn’t give advice, but empowers their “clients” to make their own decisions by helping them outline the possibilities of their choices. I don’t view this as divination any more than a patriarch who lays out what is possible for someone in their life if they make choices that keep them in harmony with the teachings of the church.

But the Church teaches that the patriarch is inspired by God, a supernatural force, when he gives people their PBs.

I'm very willing to discuss this issue further, and my experiences as a reader (both in and out of the church) if anyone wishes...

I'm surprised at the number of people in this thread who believe that Tarot is an effective practice, and it's piqued my curiosity. What do you believe controls the cards? Is it a supernatural force, chance, something in between, or something completely different?

Elphaba

[GaySaint]

I searched LDS.org for the word tarot, and was actually surprised myself when it came up with 0 results. I suppose the questions is whether or not you believe tarot to be “divination” – and I certainly could come up with arguments as to why it both is and isn’t.

Elphaba: In response to your question, the word “intuition” is thrown around quite a bit amount tarot readers and enthusiasts. While the cards seem to guide a reading in a particular direction, I think intuition has a lot to do with it.

In addition, when I was looking into this while I was a card reader and member of the church (and had to defend why I thought tarot was ok), I came across this scriptural verse that has some interesting cross-references and TG entries. 1 Corinthians 14:10

There are, it may be, so many kinds of avoices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

Personally, this scripture with its references seemed to me to suggest that there are many “forces” (types of revelation) in the world. Can fate and destiny be actual forces? Can it be those that are tapped into when tarot cards are drawn? Do these forces require priesthood authority to use?

Or is it all random and everything is based on the intuition of the reader?

I could argue it either way...

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not trying to say my bishops are the authority on this subject...

Edited September 3, 2010 by GaySaint

[HEthePrimate]

Heheh! I'd totally forgotten about starting this thread, and just noticed it had popped up again. Haven't even thought about tarot cards at all for quite a while. What a blast from the past!

The Book of Mormon states to "trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments," because then we are taught by the Holy Ghost, who we are told we can trust because the Spirit tells of things "as they really are" and "really will be."

I'll take that one step further: I don't completely trust ANYONE, not even a man or woman of God, other than God himself. However, I do think it's a good idea to pay more attention to what godly people say than to what ungodly people say. But all people are human and make mistakes, so even when we get advice/guidance from a godly person, I think it's wise to seek confirmation from God anyway.

HEP

[HEthePrimate]

Personally, this scripture with its references seemed to me to suggest that there are many “forces” (types of revelation) in the world. Can fate and destiny be actual forces? Can it be those that are tapped into when tarot cards are drawn? Do these forces require priesthood authority to use?

That's an interesting thought. One time an Institute teacher of mine was talking about some of Joseph Smith's magical practices (like dowsing, carrying amulets, etc.), and he suggested that maybe there's power that comes from God, but also other "forces", as you say. I think he said something like power from the earth, that's essentially morally neutral (i.e. not from Satan, and could be used for either good or ill). It was just speculation about why JS would engage in "magical" practices when he already had the priesthood, but I found it rather interesting.

GaySaint, I'll echo Elphaba, that I'm surprised your bishops didn't have a problem with the Tarot. But then, I've known bishops with other rather unorthodox points of view, so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised!

Peace,

HEP

[Guest JackBlackham]

In this fast developing world, we all need simple and fast solution to our problems. Tarot reading can help you better understand yourself, and give a clear solution in any area relevant to your life is a relationship, financial or health.

Psychic Reading Tarot Card Readings Angle Cards Phone Psychics Horoscopes

I'm just curious--what do y'all think of tarot cards? Are they evil? Are they neutral, and it depends on how you use them?

I've always assumed that most LDS would think they're evil, but then it occurred to me that maybe that's just an assumption. I've been reading about tarot recently because my curiosity was piqued. It seems that it originated simply as a card game, with the major trumps being used essentially for educational purposes, showing in pictures different principles related to living an enlightened life. It's based on Neoplatonic & Stoic philosophy, but Biblical or Christian themes have crept into many decks, too, which is not really surprising considering that most of the people who have historically used the tarot were Christians.

Even though it originated as a card game, it didn't take long for people to start using it for divination and fortune telling, and today that's what it is pretty much exclusively usually used for in English-speaking countries. However, even today it's still used primarily as a card game rather than for divination on the European continent. To complicate things even further, many people use the tarot neither for games nor for fortune telling, but rather for what could be called "psychological purposes." That is, many people attempt to gain wisdom or insight from the cards by examining the symbols and archetypes found in the tarot, pondering upon them, and thereby explore their own thoughts, feelings, and subconscious and see what they can learn about themselves from the tarot. When they do readings for other people, they essentially guide them in doing the same thing by helping to explain the symbolism, etc.

Anyway, I've always been somewhat of a skeptic when it comes to such things. However, I can understand using the tarot for "psychological purposes" as described above, as I have always found symbols and images very helpful in understanding things. In fact, that's the same technique the Catholic Church has long used in the construction of its churches--stained glass windows and other art used to teach people about biblical figures or stories, or saints, and as a mnemonic device.

Fascinating stuff. But don't worry, I'm not becoming a devil worshipper!! (Not on your life!)

HE the Primate

[O2BNSD]

I am also a Tarot enthisiast. I love collecting tarot cards and I do read for my wife and friends for free of course. My 12-year-old son, a deacon, is also learning how to read it.

One thing I would like to clear up is that tarot has nothing to do with evil practices. If there is anything evil with tarot reading, I would have departed away from it long time ago. Tarot is an effective counselling tool. It is not supposed to be used for fortune telling. If anyone uses tarot for fortune telling, then, he or she doesn't understand what tarot is really for.

Tarot is a set of cards with individual meanings that when put side by side could create a wonderful story about life and of how could one overcome the difficulty and obstacles that prevents one from achieving happiness. It's moral has no difference from the counsels of The Book of Mormon, the Holy Bible and our modern day prophets.

The meanings of the cards varies from reader to reader. Individual's faith gives meaning to the cards. I am a Mormon and my faith in God and the Church molds the meaning of my readings. My counsels are all based from the principles taught by the Church. A Catholic or Buddist reader will interpret the meaning of the cards according to what they believe based from the teachings and principles of their faith.

I've read to a lot of church members and it truly helped them realize the importance of doing what is right and to keep holding to the principle the church teaches. Tarot cards are mostly used for psychological treatment for depressed patients. It is also used in many kindergarten schools in the UK to enhance the psychological ability of children. Children could create many stories from various tarot card combinations.

So, really it's nothing to do about evil. It is a misconception. Tarot cards are only papers with painted pictures. It has no power of whatsoever. The reader and his faith molds the stories behind a true tarot reading.

Example:

The Devil Card = is our obsession to worldly things and addiction to drugs or sex or anything in the form of evil that consumes both our body and spirit. This card counsels us to depart from this obsession and to seek spiritual enlightenment.

The Death Card = means spiritual rebirth. A challenge to change ourselves from our old ways to new ways

Heirophant = means to seek counsel and guidance from our spiritual leaders such as bishops or branch presidents

Hermit = means to go, study, and read your scriptures

Cheers,

Angelboy

I agree with Angelboy, unfortunately the Tarot has been misused & misunderstood for many, many ages. They were NOT meant for divination, they were actually meant to be used to help in understanding conflicting, "mixed up", & too many thoughts that a person can be bombarded with. The Tarot can help in sorting everything out & to help in re-looking at everything to get a better understanding of what is currently going on within their current situation. Unfortunately, especially here in the U.S., the Tarot has been terribly misused & abused. And, of course, many falsehoods have been attached to them. I look at the Tarot as one of the many tools that are available to a person to help with understanding things within their circumstances. Same thing with astrology, astrology has nothing to do with those daily zodiac readings that appear in the newspaper on a daily basis. That is not how true astrology works. There is so much more to understanding & proper use of the astrological positionings.

Yes, as a very active LDS, temple recommend holder, I always place my faith in my daily prayers & scripture readings first and foremost, but there are times when I have found using the Tarot & astrological assessments to be very helpful when things get to be too much & where I may have too many conflicting emotions/feelings of the situation. I have found that these tools help to sort things out & helps to see things in different perspectives which then allows me to have a better understanding of the issue.

Anything can be used in a negative, detrimental way...not just Tarot, Astrology, or what have you. That is the main point, if it is used in that fashion, then yes, that would be evil & dangerous.

[bytebear]

I don't believe the devil can control the randomness of dealt cards. I also don't believe the Devil can manipulate the wanderings of a plastic arrow on a board. I do, however, believe our subconscious mind can make us manipulate such things, and even move such items. I also firmly believe that when we start believing these things, we are closing ourselves up to the Holy Ghost, and we can not discern one feeling from the other. That is the danger of believing in such things.

[curiousheathen]

As I've mentioned before, I'm principally a lurker. I'm also not LDS. I am a professional tarot reader, and I have been reading cards for over a decade now. I always caution my clients: take everything with a grain of salt. This means, realize that nothing is set in stone. Cards do not determine your future, but they can help you understand where your actions may take you. I come from a family of tarot readers. My great something grandmother read playing cards to tell fortunes, and she converted to Mormonism when she was still in Sweden.

Also, tarot began as a game called tarrochi and later became used for divination. In modern thought, particularly new age thought, they are now seen as tools for understanding the self, as a sort of guide. They are first and foremost, tools for divination.

All of my family members who have read over the years have seen their gift as a gift from God.

[Backroads]

I personally have nothing against Tarot cards. I imagine as with anything you can cause trouble with them, but I don't think they're evil on their own. I quite like the idea, and have met a couple of New Agey Mormons (who are very active in church with very strong testimonies) who work with them and other such things.

[Blackmarch]

I'm just curious--what do y'all think of tarot cards? Are they evil? Are they neutral, and it depends on how you use them?

I've always assumed that most LDS would think they're evil, but then it occurred to me that maybe that's just an assumption. I've been reading about tarot recently because my curiosity was piqued. It seems that it originated simply as a card game, with the major trumps being used essentially for educational purposes, showing in pictures different principles related to living an enlightened life. It's based on Neoplatonic & Stoic philosophy, but Biblical or Christian themes have crept into many decks, too, which is not really surprising considering that most of the people who have historically used the tarot were Christians.

Even though it originated as a card game, it didn't take long for people to start using it for divination and fortune telling, and today that's what it is pretty much exclusively usually used for in English-speaking countries. However, even today it's still used primarily as a card game rather than for divination on the European continent. To complicate things even further, many people use the tarot neither for games nor for fortune telling, but rather for what could be called "psychological purposes." That is, many people attempt to gain wisdom or insight from the cards by examining the symbols and archetypes found in the tarot, pondering upon them, and thereby explore their own thoughts, feelings, and subconscious and see what they can learn about themselves from the tarot. When they do readings for other people, they essentially guide them in doing the same thing by helping to explain the symbolism, etc.

Anyway, I've always been somewhat of a skeptic when it comes to such things. However, I can understand using the tarot for "psychological purposes" as described above, as I have always found symbols and images very helpful in understanding things. In fact, that's the same technique the Catholic Church has long used in the construction of its churches--stained glass windows and other art used to teach people about biblical figures or stories, or saints, and as a mnemonic device.

Fascinating stuff. But don't worry, I'm not becoming a devil worshipper!! (Not on your life!)

HE the Primate

as a fun off the cuff thing like picking up an 8 ball to see what silliness you get? probably would be fine.

Once you start ascribing to it godly powers, however, and rather turn any your trust to it rather than god that is when you cross the line and commit idolatry

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I'm just curious--what do y'all think of tarot cards? Are they evil? Are they neutral, and it depends on how you use them?

I've always assumed that most LDS would think they're evil, but then it occurred to me that maybe that's just an assumption. I've been reading about tarot recently because my curiosity was piqued. It seems that it originated simply as a card game, with the major trumps being used essentially for educational purposes, showing in pictures different principles related to living an enlightened life. It's based on Neoplatonic & Stoic philosophy, but Biblical or Christian themes have crept into many decks, too, which is not really surprising considering that most of the people who have historically used the tarot were Christians.

Even though it originated as a card game, it didn't take long for people to start using it for divination and fortune telling, and today that's what it is pretty much exclusively usually used for in English-speaking countries. However, even today it's still used primarily as a card game rather than for divination on the European continent. To complicate things even further, many people use the tarot neither for games nor for fortune telling, but rather for what could be called "psychological purposes." That is, many people attempt to gain wisdom or insight from the cards by examining the symbols and archetypes found in the tarot, pondering upon them, and thereby explore their own thoughts, feelings, and subconscious and see what they can learn about themselves from the tarot. When they do readings for other people, they essentially guide them in doing the same thing by helping to explain the symbolism, etc.

Anyway, I've always been somewhat of a skeptic when it comes to such things. However, I can understand using the tarot for "psychological purposes" as described above, as I have always found symbols and images very helpful in understanding things. In fact, that's the same technique the Catholic Church has long used in the construction of its churches--stained glass windows and other art used to teach people about biblical figures or stories, or saints, and as a mnemonic device.

Fascinating stuff. But don't worry, I'm not becoming a devil worshipper!! (Not on your life!)

HE the Primate

Tarot cards are a spirtual median, there power only comes from one sourse and that is the Deciver. I do not know what punishment one can receive for using spiritual medians from the LDS Church, but it is defiantely a violation of the commandments given to Moses.

[Guest DeborahC]

My two cents:

Tarot is not intended to be used for telling fortunes any more than opening the Bible and pointing to a verse is intended to be used for telling fortunes. People love doing those types of things anyway. But it's no more dangerous than pulling the petals off a daisy, "He loves me, he loves me not!"

The Tarot is a tool of self-discovery. The Major Arcana is a "book" describing, step by step, how our lives unfold, and can be very helpful to a person who understands its use.

All I can say about whether or not it's "ok" to use Tarot is from my own experience, when back in the 80's I was invited to a Bishop's court when someone reported me for giving a class on Tarot. It's a long story, but I'm still a member in good standing, and I occasionally get out my cards when I have a problem I need to work through.

Anything, literally anything, can be used for divination, whether it's your wedding ring or birds flying in the sky... and it has nothing to do with Satan. Rather, the danger is when we ask the CARDS for help instead of praying to GOD for help, and think that something other than God is answering. Since God is IN us, the answers are also in us, and using a tool to access that information is perfectly valid, in my opinion.

Most types of divination are simply a way of accessing your own intuition and instinct, somewhat like dowsing,if used correctly

If they frighten you, simply don't do it! :)

Tools such as the Ouija Board or other talking boards, can be more dangerous, and an invitation to spiritual entities, mostly because that is their intended purpose, to contact spirits of the dead, and they should be left alone.

As should Tarot if you do not understand it.

Edited February 3, 2011 by DeborahC

[ddnhxf]

I think that there is a difference between tarot cards and ouija boards because ouija boards is used to communicate with spirits while tarot cards dont. So saying that the two are in the same category would be like comparing apples and oranges

[annewandering]

I dont get how they can be anything but bad. Wouldnt prayer work better?

[LeKook]

I dont get how they can be anything but bad. Wouldnt prayer work better?

YES... I read Tarot cards for years, up until early 2011. They are used to provide guidance. If a Christian needs guidance, the Holy Spirit provides the best guidance you can get. Any other guidance system is subject to tampering with spiritual forces it's best not to tamper with.

[HEthePrimate]

YES... I read Tarot cards for years, up until early 2011. They are used to provide guidance. If a Christian needs guidance, the Holy Spirit provides the best guidance you can get. Any other guidance system is subject to tampering with spiritual forces it's best not to tamper with.

So, the Urim and Thummim are dangerous to tamper with, and Joseph Smith was off base using a seer stone to reveal the Book of Mormon? Not to mention the ancient apostles casting lots to choose a new apostle, and the Lehites being guided by the Liahona.

I'm certainly not suggesting anybody abandon prayer, but I see no reason why God couldn't reveal his will by any number of means.

[LeKook]

So, the Urim and Thummim are dangerous to tamper with, and Joseph Smith was off base using a seer stone to reveal the Book of Mormon? Not to mention the ancient apostles casting lots to choose a new apostle, and the Lehites being guided by the Liahona.

I'm certainly not suggesting anybody abandon prayer, but I see no reason why God couldn't reveal his will by any number of means.

Let's see, can anyone here tell me the difference between the three things you mention here and Tarot cards?

*insert Jeopardy music here* LOL!!!

I'm off to read my tea leaves now. Maybe tomorrow I'll try reading the entrails of a chicken?

[annewandering]

I dont recall God telling anyone to use tarot cards. Did I miss something?

[NeuroTypical]

...ouija boards is used to communicate with spirits...

They are? Who said?

Certainly not the Hasbro toy company, which owns the rights to the game...

Ouija Board instruction sheet

People watch too many scary movies.

[annewandering]

They are? Who said?

Certainly not the Hasbro toy company, which owns the rights to the game...

Ouija Board instruction sheet

People watch too many scary movies.

Or have person experience to know why its not a good toy. It is not.

[HEthePrimate]

I dont recall God telling anyone to use tarot cards. Did I miss something?

I don't recall God telling me to eat a hamburger last night, either.

[beefche]

So, the Urim and Thummim are dangerous to tamper with, and Joseph Smith was off base using a seer stone to reveal the Book of Mormon? Not to mention the ancient apostles casting lots to choose a new apostle, and the Lehites being guided by the Liahona.

I'm certainly not suggesting anybody abandon prayer, but I see no reason why God couldn't reveal his will by any number of means.

That reminds me of D&C 28--the guy who had the stone and was receiving revelations from it. The Lord rebuked it and basically said that revelations come through the Spirit. The fact that a prophet(s) had seer stones or U&T doesn't mean that is how the Lord works with his people on all accounts. In fact, I think the scriptures are clear that the pattern is that a U&T is used when something needs to be translated--and that gift would go to the prophet chosen for such an occasion. Otherwise, we are to rely on the revealed scriptures and pattern for receiving revelation rather than relying on some object to convey God's word to us.