mikbone

Strange. We had a lesson in priesthood that focused on Neal A Maxwells 1978 conference talk: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1978/04/the-women-of-god?lang=eng Excerpt We know so little, brothers and sisters, about the reasons for the division of duties between womanhood and manhood as well as between motherhood and priesthood. These were divinely determined in another time and another place. When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses? When the surf of the centuries has made the great pyramids so much sand, the everlasting family will still be standing, because it is a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this. I find it amazing in our day of enlightment when femenism and equality issues rear their ugly head that our GAs were able to succintly state the importance of motherhood decades ago.

Thanks, my example was silly by intent. If my 18 year old son were to ask President Monson the same question. I would assume that the Prophet would say something like... Go see your bishop and stake president. Send in your papers. Serve a worthy mission. Get an education. Prepare yourself for a worthy young lady and temple marriage. Have a family. Represent the Lord and the Church well. Accept callings and magnify your priesthood. When we go to the temple we make covenants to invest more of ourselves in the kingdom of God. But that does not necessarily mean that men are to leave their families in the hands of the Lord while we spend an inordinate time doing our callings. We are not required to sit through uninspired meeting after meeting. There are a couple scenarios that I can see happening in a uninspired meeting. Perhaps I personally am disconnected and uninspired. Or the meeting itself is uninspired. It is possible that we have uninspired meetings within the LDS church... If so it is our duty to call attention to the possibility that the meetings are repetitive or non-productive. Many will call it ark steadying and they may be correct. But I don't see it that way. I have sat through 2 hour meetings that could have been resolved in 30 minutes. My primary duty is to my wife. I made covenants with her. We are sealed for eternity. My next duty is to my children. When each of them are married in the temple I will feel a great relief. I cannot ever see the time when me making a difference in a non-family members life will compensate for a lost child.

As I have already stated, it matters not to me which stage of sleep an inspired dream is given to a man or woman. God does not live by the limits of our current knowledge. I am sure that he does not refer to sleep in 5 levels and probably does not call what we now refer to as Random Eye Movement sleep as REM. His science is infinitely superior to ours. How many sleep studies can you look up that have recorded the instances when inspired dreams have occurred? In all likelihood when inspired dreams happen, they occur through a means that we have yet to discover... Inspired dreams cannot be interpreted or studied by the scientific method. The beholder of such dreams must find out for himself or herself the validity and interpretation of such revelation. Likewise when I anoint a head with oil or lay my hands upon a sick saint and invoke a blessing for the sick, I do not think to myself how my knowledge of physiology is going to affect the blessing. Blessings work by other means; authority, worthiness, and faith not to mention the will of the Lord. What I find offensive is the limits that you put on the Lord and the means by which you argue that worthy saints cannot receive revelation through dreams. If you want to argue sleep by all means go hang out at a sleep study forum with your neurology associates. But this is LDS Gospel discussion forum.

They sell caffeine-free diet mountain Dew in BYU. Its horrible. You don't want it.

I hope the woman they pick to say the prayer is a sunbeam.

HaHa, I work with both neurologists and neurosurgeons. Believe me, neurosurgeons that specialize in the brain know much more. Most neurosurgeons do spine work but the brain surgeons know their stuff. Neurologists use drugs to modify neurotransmitters in both central and peripheral disorders. Do you know how the circuitry of the brain was fairly well mapped out? Basically we watched people who either had brain lesions in specific areas with specific disabilities, or people who had brain trauma to specific areas and their disabilities. Essentially if you cause a lesion in the occipital area one gets blindness. So that part of the brain deals with visual function... Please see http://faculty.washington.edu/somurray/psych506/readings/lesion-methods.pdf In my opinion you greatly overestimate our current grasp on the human brain... I would prefer that when you quote me and address my statements that you would address me directly not the casual reader. You persistence to define dreams is not really making any headway. I am fairly certain that I understand the term dream.

After reading the tread http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/52609-leadership-meetings.html I was wondering, how the Church now is different then in the time of Christ or when the Church was first re-organized. For example, the original latter-day missionaries were asked to leave their families (wives, and children) for years at a time without purse or script. Now young men or women are asked to save for their missions and serve a term of 18 months or 2 years. And if you ask for an extension you can extend for a month or two, but rarely any longer. Likewise in the parable of the rich young man Mark 10:17-31, a young man asks the Lord how he can inherit eternal life and the Lord states, "sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." I have a profitable business and am the father of a large family. What do you think President Monson would say, if I were to come up to him at general conference and state. I have sold all my goods and given all of my substance to the poor. I have left my wife and children's welfare in the hands of my local ward. I wish to inherit eternal life. I want to take up my cross and follow the Lord. What shall I do? What kind of response do you think He would have?

We are not all diseased. Where does this stuff come from? Our bodies are gifts from God, and they are amazing. They can break down and become diseased sure, but usually we are healthy. Granted the natural man denies the spirit. But man can accept God and learn to embrace the spirit. With practice and righteousness it can become easier for man to understand revelation. We are not all lost souls wandering around in confusion. We can distinguish light from darkness. You and I don't understand how the spirit, mind, and body are connected. I have no idea if spirits sleep. We don't know if resurrected bodies sleep. We know that Jesus Christ was able to eat after the resurrection... You have no idea how much the spirit is in control of the body, and mind. We do know that when the spirit is separated from the body that a living soul dies. For all we know the mind could actuality be an organ that connects our body to our spirit. When you die and your brain turns to dust, what happens to your memories? Are they gone never to be retrieved? Or are your memories actually stored in your spirit and interpreted by your brain.

No, your point is that God does not inspire dreams. Or are you changing your stance? Revelation comes from God. It matters not if it comes while one is awake or asleep. I also don't understand why you keep trying to use modern science to explain what dreams are. We (scientist, learned men) have not figured out what dreams are yet. They are still a big mystery. Heck we hardly understand the brain at all. The brain is the least understood organ in the human body. We have made artificial hearts, lungs, kidneys, etc... In reality, we have no idea about how the brain works. I have worked with and scrubbed with many neurosurgeons. We don't know how to repair brain tissue. The best we can do at this point is cut out parts of the brain and hope for the best.

I'm not sure why you are willing to fall onto your sword to defend you position which is contrary to current LDS teachings. We have quoted multiple sources of modern day prophets and lesson manuals which plainly teach that both visions and dreams are ways in which God can communicate with man. You have not quoted a single reference that bolsters your point. Perhaps the gospel definition of a dream is not well defined because the person who receives an inspired dream must find out for himself if what He had was inspired and then understand the interpretation of the dream. I don't really care what non-LDS experts spout about dreams, sleep phases, etc. We are not discussing non-inspired dreams, chanting sessions, drug induced trips, etc... in this tread. It is obvious to me that both inspired dreams and visions can be ways that God communicates to man. For example Lehi had a dream. Nephi had a vision of his father's Dream. Inspired dreams occur when one is asleep. Inspired visions occur when one is awake. Sure, but one could also argue that meditation and prayer is also an altered state of consciousness. Who cares??? It makes no difference. If God is communicating spirit to spirit what does it matter. This line of your argument is what I find offensive. Stop trying to compare inspired dreams or visions to diseased states or alcohol and drug induced mind altering 'trips'. I'll grant you that I have had nightmares and strange dreams many times during my life, but none of those were inspired dreams. I have never had an inspired dream personally. But I do believe that they can happen and I would never tell anyone that believed that they received personal revelation through a dream that they were wrong. It is up to the person themselves to understand if a message was given to them from God. There have been many good talks in the latter days to help us understand if a message is from God. So?? William C. Dement's expertise has nothing to do with inspired dreams. He may have many hours studying sleep states and dreams. But he probably has never studied a person having a inspired dream...

I have many callings: Husband, father to 10, breadwinner, Elder's Quorum councillor. I try to divide my time equally between my callings and I count each child as a calling... I find the statement "Don't worry about your families. You can have them in the millennium." incredibly obtuse. In my youth I observed both my bishop and stake president lose their church memberships and families. Service and Charity are no doubt important and Godly. But, “No other success can compensate for failure in the home.”

I didnt want to go here but... Personally I studied a concept concerning the gospel that I was confused about. I put many hours into study with scriptures and prayer. When the answer came, it came in a vision. I knew it was personal revelation for me because of how it made me feel. It broadened my understanding and gave me a better appreciation for the gospel. I was not specifically petitioning for a dream or vision but it happened the way that it did. You are the only one in this thread that has mentioned the concept of altered states, drugs, etc. I never felt confused or out of control at any time during this process. You have a way about you of projecting false concepts onto other people and then arguing that because we believe in your false concepts that we are wrong... It is a poor way to make an argument.

Well from the list you presented you are not apostate. Burnt out from your mortal test? Possibly. Here is the way that I look at it. Hebrews 12 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? We come here from our pre-mortal existence to learn and to be tested. We have to go through difficulties to learn how to deal with them. These hard lessons give us experience and make us stronger. I am a bone doctor. There is a very important law that I deal with in my work environment called Wolff's Law. Basically it states that Bone remodels and adapts to loads under which it is placed. For example If I have two patients that are both 70 year old females. The first patient is a bit overweight but very active. She tries to eat a healthy diet but has worked her whole life. She likes to get her hands dirty and work in her garden. She likes to ride her bike and hikes on the weekends. The second patient is a bit under weight (she is a health food advocate and a practicing vegan) but she lives a life of leisure. She dislikes physical activity (sweating) and spends most of her day sitting, reading, etc. Who do you think has better bone??? Would you believe that the heavier active patient will have bone that is significantly stronger and healthy than the 2nd patient? And here is the kicker. If you put an astronaut in space for 3-4 months and then test his bone with the bone of the 70 year old females he may have the worst bone density. Why is this significant? Because Wolff's law also applies to our spirits. There are people who come to earth and do not appear to be pushed. Whereas other seem to have to overcome issue after issue. Those people who are overcoming problems are slowly but progressively becoming stronger and stronger. Perhaps the Lord thinks highly of you. You may have made significant commitments in the pre-existence. Take some time and study out these revelations given to Joseph Smith D&C 121 7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; 8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes. 9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands. 10 Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job. D&C 122 5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea; 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb; 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? 9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. Finally on your last point. That you do not think that all callings come from God. I have to agree with you here. The Church authorities are trying to do their best. It is easy to argue that since a man is called to be the bishop any calling that He extends is from God. And that may be correct. But then again many non inspired things have transpired in the church as well. I am pretty sure that when I was at BYU living in married student housing that my calling of "stairwell leader" was not inspired. The Bishop felt that everyone needed a calling and it was pretty obvious that callings were being made up. My duties were to tack a handout onto the stairwell bulletin board monthly. I also had the opportunity of being a branch president in southern Chile while on my mission. I had to call a new relief society president and sunday school president. My first 4-5 choices for each calling either declined for personal reasons or I had to withhold the offer because I learned during the interview that the member was living contrary to their covenants and they had to be put on probation. Eventually I had to call members that were willing to take the call and doing their best to live the law of chastity or word of wisdom...

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that you are just being contentious. There have been so many latter day talks about how to determine if revelation is from God... LDS.org - Sunday School Chapter Detail - Recognizing Personal Revelation Speeches Holy Ghost/Revelation from God or the devil - FAIRMormon Just to name few that I pulled up with a Internet search.

Really??

"The sleeper has awakened!!"

Yeah, I'm still gonna eat me some Bar-B-Que.

I disagree with you with all my heart. Visions and dreams are most excellent ways to learn about the gospel. Some people receive revelation via the still small voice, others hear words in their minds, some have visions or dreams. You seem to have appointed yourself as the revelation police... Or am I incorrect. D&C 138 is clearly a vision. And the information that Joseph F. Smith received in that vision was much more informative than what one can receive from a feeling of peace. When we ask for answers to prayers we usually study out an idea in our minds and ask if our conclusions are correct or not. The burning in the bosom is a YES answer to a question. But some questions cannot be answered with a yes or no response. Some answers to prayers require much more profound revelation. visions and dreams can be the the answer to complex questions. I have had a waking vision on more than one occasion. I would not have traded those experiences for a burning in the bosom. You may want to review Personal Revelation - Ensign Sept. 1999 - ensign See also Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, p. 54. “We believe that we have a right to revelations, visions, and dreams from God, our heavenly Father; and light and intelligence, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus Christ, on all subjects pertaining to our spiritual welfare; if it so be that we keep his commandments, so as to render ourselves worthy in his sight.”

I don't presume to know the mind of God. But careful reading of Jacob 2:30 does suggest a reason wherein polygamy would be permissible.

Even since my son received his mission call, I have noticed the great differences in how the mission field has changed. I was only able to call home 4x during my entire mission. Christmas and Mother's Day twice. The missionaries in Leeds England have internet blogs wherein they post current photos and log their daily activities. We have also seen quite a few videos although the video recording devices are strictly prohibited from what I gather... We are going to have much better contact with our children during their missions than what we had with our parents during our missions.

First off, modern science has no idea what causes dreams. There are many learned men whom think that they have figured out how our brains work. But in my opinion they are grasping at straws. If God wants to deliver a message to a man or woman during a waking vision, any of the 5 phases of sleep, within the 4 phases of anesthesia, or even during a near death experience... He can do it.

I believe that Joseph Smith knew much more than many give him credit. For example: Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday June 16, 1844 Source: Thomas Bullock report No End to Gods if J. C. was the Son of God & John discd. that God the Far. of J. C. had a far. you may suppose that he had a Far. also---where was ther ever a Son witht. a Far.---where ever did tree or any thing spring into existence witht. a progenitor-- & every thing comes in this way--Paul says that which is Earthyly is in likeness of that which is Heavenly-- hence if J. had a Far. can we not believe that he had a Fa.r also--I despise the idea of being scared to death--I want you all to pay particr. attent. J. sd. as the Far. wrought precisely in the same way as his Far. had done bef-- as the Far. had done bef--he laid down his life & took it up same as his Far. had done before--he did as he was sent to lay down his life & take it up again & was then committed unto him the keys &c I know it is good reasoning-- * John 5:19, John 10:17-18

While I was teaching the lesson I was inspired with the following interpretation of Hebrews 5:12-14 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Milk and Meat We have been well provided with milk in the Church education system. Everyone is well instructed in the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. But if there are first principles, there must be secondary, tertiary, etc... You show up to church and you are given a tall glass of chilled homogenized 2% milk and it is good. But if you want the meat you have to put forth a bit more effort. You gotta hunt down your prey and then slaughter it. You have to butcher the carcass. Age the meat. And then cook it properly. If you do the steps wrong you will ruin the flesh or worse become sick. And even if you do prepare it correctly, you can still choke on the meat if you don't drink lots of milk while chewing and savoring each bite. Personally, I like the meat. It tastes good. Its worth the extra work. The reason why I liked this lesson so much was the fact that it is the first time since the '97 TIME commentary that the church has placed this doctrine in lesson manual (as I recall). This fact that the lesson was in the manual proves that we teach it. The entire lesson alludes to the couplet, but the actual wording of the couplet is not found in the lesson. You may say that the couplet is not in the lesson because the church is trying to de-emphasis the first portion of the couplet. But I believe that they want us to seek out the information for ourselves.

Kinda. This is why I made the original post. You are quoting the statement that the prophet provided to the dogs and swine. See Matthew 7:6-7 The statement that I think more likely applies to this topic is Hinkley's statement during general conference that I listed above. I will print it again, emphasis added. Drawing Nearer to the Lord President Gordon B. Hinckley Nov 1997 Ensign conference issue “The media have been kind and generous to us. This past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive, favorable press coverage. There have been a few things we wish might have been different. I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that’s to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church.”

Did Joseph Smith Teach the Doctrine?? Sermon delivered by Joseph Smith at the funeral of King Follett held at the General Conference of the Church at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday Afternoon April 7, 1844 As reprinted and edited in the April 1971 issue of the Ensign God an Exalted Man I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it**, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me. ** See John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.