classylady

My husband's sister, when she married the second time, she was married in the temple--it was not a sealing, but marriage for time only.

Congratulations, Beefche and Dravin! I'm so happy for you.

I don't know where to find the information in the handbook. It could be there. But, some of the answers are with "Ask Gramps". My husband and I were researching this because of his sister who is widowed, and previously sealed to her first husband. She then remarried, and because she was already sealed, she could not be sealed to her second husband. She had a child with her second husband. Her child with her second husband is BIC. My husband and I were wondering if this doctrine applies to widows, does it also apply to divorcees, because he is divorced and his ex has had two subsequent children. In "Ask Gramps" it does go over the BIC doctrine with divorcees--and how the same doctrine applies to them. What I have found in the Old Testament is the history of Judah and his three sons. His oldest son Er married Tamar. Er died. Then Judah said unto Onan (his second son), Genesis 38:8-9 "Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his, and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother." Onan dies, and verse 11 "Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law. Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house." We know the rest of the story. Shelah becomes an adult, and Tamar was not given to him as a wife. She poses as a harlot, and waits for Judah. Judah gives her his signet, bracelets, and staff as tokens to her and "came in unto her, and she conceived by him." I'm thinking this is more than just the culture of the time. And my understanding is that the same doctrine applies to a divorcee who hasn't had her sealing cancelled when she has subsequent children. I know it's bothersome to some people.

I have researched this, because this is what has happened with my husband. He was sealed to his first wife. She had several affairs and was excommunicated. They divorced. They had two children prior to her excommunication--so those two children were BIC. No matter what the parents do, those children will always be BIC and will not lose any blessings. Because of the excommunication the sealing between husband and wife has been revoked. But, the children that were BIC don't lose any of those sealing blessings. Any subsequent children the ex-wife has will not be considered BIC because she was excommunicated. Even if they had remained married, any subsequent children would not be BIC and would need to be sealed to the parents after her rebaptism. My husband and I researched this because his ex has had two daughters since their divorce. She has never been rebaptized, so her subsequent children were not BIC. Now if she had gotten rebaptized, and had her temple blessings restored before giving birth to the subsequent children, then they would have been BIC. Edit: If I'm not making any sense here and repeating myself, forgive me, I was flying most of the day--first from SLC to Houston and then Houston to Seattle--and it was like 3 in the morning when I typed this.

Vort is right. Only if the husband was sealed to all his wives were all the children considered BIC. If he was only married civilly then any children with that spouse were not considered BIC. But, you have to realize that most plural marriages back then were all sealed in the temple.

You are right that the child born to the wife would still be BIC. But a child born to the husband who has remarried civilly is not BIC. I researched this about a year ago. It is on "Ask Gramps". Edit: Also, I have first hand knowledge of this. My husband and I were first married civilly. He had been sealed to his first wife and his sealing had not been cancelled. When we were sealed in the temple our first child needed to be sealed to us as he was not considered born in the covenant.

I'm so glad for you. This is a major accomplishment! My grandson has aspergers. He has special challenges, but with training, they can be overcome--at least to some degree.

Maureen, I'm not a gospel scholar so I don't know all the whys and the wherefores. My understanding would be because in the case of widowhood, the wife is still considered sealed to her late husband. And her subsequent children that she would have in a civil marriage--or even out of wedlock, would be sealed to her and her deceased husband. This would hold true for divorce if the wife has not received a sealing cancellation, and/or been excommunicated from the church. If excommunicated, her sealing would be revoked. In the case of a man being widowed, or divorced, and if he remarries civilly, and the new spouse has not previously been sealed, the children would not be born in the covenant. It seems to me, that the sealing goes through the mother. Why? I don't have the answer to that. Maybe because the man can be sealed to more than one wife while in mortality, but the woman may only be sealed to one man. Why? Again, I don't have the answer to that.

When I was a teenager I had a friend who was considered BIC under similar circumstances as your ex's child will be. In seminary and Sunday School she would ask "Who am I sealed to?" It really bothered her that she wasn't sealed to her biological father. She was always told that things would work out in the eternities--that it didn't matter. But, it bothered her a great deal. I don't know if it was because she was a teenager, and a female. I've lost contact with her, but hopefully as an adult she has found peace with it. In the eternal perspective of things, we've been promised that any wayward children that we've had, that if they are sealed (BIC) that they will eventually return--they will feel the "divine tentacles" of the spirit and will return--whether in this life or the next we don't know. But, this is a wonderful blessing bestowed on children BIC. My husband and I did some research on this about a year ago. He was previously sealed to his ex. She has had two subsequent daughters without having her sealing cancelled. We wondered if the girls were considered sealed to him. We actually found out they weren't, but only because his ex was excommunicated prior to having those children. But, if she hadn't been excommunicated then those children would have been considered BIC. These girls are adults now, and we didn't even think about researching this until about a year ago. I have to admit that years ago I might have "freaked" if I found out they were sealed to my husband. But, when I found out they weren't BIC, I was surprised at my reaction. I was actually disappointed. Why? Because I know those girls. They are half-sisters to my two step-children. So we have had those girls in our home. I have grown to love them. And they need the sealing covenant in their lives. They are struggling with their lives, having made choices that have brought heartache to them and their half-siblings and biological parents. What a blessing it would be to those girls to have that sealing covenant--to know that some day they would return.

As long as your ex was not excommunicated, the child would be considered BIC.

Brother Bart is sealed to Sister Suzie in the temple. Tragically, they divorce some time later, but do not get their sealing dissolved at that time. Bart then marries Therese in a civil ceremony, and together they produce little Xaviera. QUESTION 1: Is Xaviera born in the covenant? Yes, Xaviera is born in the covenant of her father Bart and Suzie, to whom he is sealed.No, Xaviera is not born in the covenant.NO NOT BORN IN COVENANT BECAUSE PARENTS ARE MARRIED CIVILLY--NOT SEALED.During this time period, Suzie also remarries in a civil ceremony. She and her husband Charlie welcome a new baby, Yolando. QUESTION 2: Is Yolando born in the covenant? Yes, Yolando is born in the covenant of his mother Suzie and Bart, to whom she is sealed.No, Yolando is not born in the covenant.YES, BORN IN THE COVENANT. SUZIE IS STILL CONSIDERED SEALED--JUST LIKE A WIDOW. A WIDOW WHEN REMARRYING CIVILLY IS STILL CONSIDERED SEALED TO HER DECEASED HUSBAND. SUBSEQUENT CHILDREN WOULD BE CONSIDERED SEALED TO HER AND HER FORMER SPOUSE. REMEMBER IN GENESIS HOW JUDAH'S WIDOWED DAUGHTER-IN-LAW TAMAR WAS PROMISED TO HIS YOUNGER SON "TO RAISE UP SEED TO THY BROTHER". NOW, IF SUSIE HAD BEEN EXCOMMUNICATED THEN THE CHILDREN WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED BORN IN THE COVENANT BECAUSE THE SEALING WOULD HAVE BEEN REVOKED. BUT SHE WAS NOT EXCOMMUNICATED SO SEALING IS STILL INTACT AND HER SUBSEQUENT CHILDREN ARE CONSIDERED BIC. THE MAN WHO REMARRIES CIVILLY IS NOT AFFORDED THIS SAME PROTECTION OF SUBSEQUENT CHILDREN BIC--EVEN IF HE WAS WIDOWED--BUT HE HAS THE OPTION OF BEING SEALED TO MORE THAN ONE WIFE AT A TIME. THE WOMAN DOES NOT HAVE THAT OPTION.After some time, Bart and Therese are sealed. Suzie has her sealing to Bart cancelled, and then she is sealed to Charlie. QUESTION 3: Can little Xaviera be sealed to her parents? Of course she can be sealed to her father Bart and to her real, biological mother Therese. She was never sealed to anyone else in the first place.Of course she can be sealed to her father Bart and to her real, biological mother Therese. Her sealing to Bart and Suzie is of no effect, since the sealing between them no longer exists.Of course not; she was born in the covenant of her father Bart and his first wife Suzie, so another sealing is meaningless.YES, SHE CAN BE SEALED TO HER BIOLOGICAL PARENTS BECAUSE SHE WAS NOT BIC.QUESTION 4: Can baby Yolando be sealed to his parents? Of course he can be sealed to his real, biological father Charlie and to his mother Suzie. He was never sealed to anyone else in the first place.Of course he can be sealed to his real, biological father Charlie and to his mother Suzie. His sealing to Bart and Suzie is of no effect, since the sealing between them no longer exists.Of course not; he was born in the covenant of his mother Suzie and her first husband Bart, so another sealing is meaningless.NO SEALING IS NECESSARY BECAUSE CHILD WAS BIC.Yolando and Xaviera grow up, meet, and against all odds fall in love and are married. QUESTION 5: Isn't this kind of like, um, incest or something? This is totally just wrong.Hmmm. No, not incest, because they aren't related by blood. Just weird.Oooh, yuck, I can't think about this!NO PROBLEM. NO BLOOD RELATIONSHIP. JUST AWKWARD BETWEEN PARENTS.QUESTION 6: Who pays for the reception? Bride's parents.Groom's parents.They split the cost.Let the darn kids pay for it themselves.ANY OR ALL OF THE ABOVE.Bart and Suzie's long-lost daughter Wanda comes back one day. QUESTION 7: How is she introduced by Yolando and Xaviera at Church? "This is my sister and, um, Yolando's sister, too"?"Xaviera and I have a sister in common, and, well, here she is.""Hi, we're Wanda, Xaviera, and Yolando, and we're visiting your ward today."HI, WE'RE WANDA, XAVIERA, AND YOLANDO...EVEN THOUGH TECHNICALLY WANDA WOULD BE THEIR HALF-SISTER.

There were definitely some old timers on his post--Loudmouth, MorningStar, Iggy, Ruthiechan, just to name a few. I recognized some of the other names too. Others I've never heard of. Like Pam says, people come and go. And I don't think my son has been back on. Of course you never know. When I look at his info it says he has only had 2 posts. And that would be his original question, and then he posted once on the same thread. The internet and forums such as this have made the world "smaller". What I mean by that, is that people all over the world can have a little glimpse of your own personal life. They enter in for a short time, reading or commenting on your questions, struggles, and trials. They might "laugh" at something you may say. For the most part, (here on this forum at least) it is somewhat anonymous. But then, someone may come on, that knows you personally, and depending on what you've posted, they then may know some of your most personal thoughts and trials--things that you would have kept private. Just a reminder to be careful.

I've been doing some more thinking. When I first posted this, I hadn't thought it through, and I was still in a semi-state of shock. And skippy740, you are absolutely correct that the forum members really do a good job in helping people. There were a number of pages of advice offered him, and it was all spot on. It sounds like he listened to it. No marriage is perfect, but they have been working on theirs, and they have found ways to compromise and make their marriage work for them. The question he had was one that both he and his wife had talked to me about. So, I knew what was going on with them--no secret there--just typical newlywed problems with young children, and learning how to deal with each other's issues. I'm not going to tell him that I found his thread. Plus, this has been a really good lesson to me. Anything we post on this site (or other internet site) can be read by anyone. If too much personal information is included in any thread, it could be the means of someone finding out who you are. Just be aware that what you thought was anonymous and private, may not necessarily be the case if too much information is made available to others.

Oh my word! I'm still a little in shock. I was reading through some old threads and I came across a post I'm 99.9% sure is from my son. He started a thread about having marriage problems with his wife, and everything he said fits he and his wife to a "T"--plus his user name is his first name with the initial of his last name. His first name is quite unusual. The post is several years old. Should I mention to him that I read his post? The problem he talked about isn't anything new. I was already aware of their problem/s. But the post was a little more personal than what has been confided to the family. Plus, some of the advice he was given was to get the book "The Five Love Languages", which I know he and his wife did end up getting, and they eventually gave it to me to read. What do you think? Mention it to him? I don't think he would get embarrassed. That was the only thread he has been on. Or should I update the post, letting people know how they're doing? But, I don't know if I want to do that because that would tie me to that post and some of my own anonymity would be gone. What do you think?

I would just state the facts in the letter without emotional embellishments. If he was unfaithful and pretty much abandoned you and the children, I would just say that you tried for years to make the marriage work but because of infidelity and abandonment you could no longer stay in the marriage. The leaders of the Church have read many letters. They understand the heartache behind the divorce. They also receive many letters from ex-spouses who still try to manipulate the relationship. They can see through those people. They'll be able to see that you've moved on--that you've found a worthy man who wants to be sealed to you. As long as you and your current spouse are worthy, there shouldn't be any problems with your sealing being cancelled.

Mistie, you are not "damaged goods". But, I do have to agree with some of the "brutal truths" that skippy740 and Dahlia have talked about. I married a man with two children that he had full custody of. He never received any child support from his ex-wife. I know that might seem insignificant to some because he is the father, not the mother. But, we have always struggled financially, and it would have been a help to have had some sort of financial help from his ex for the kids. She had visitation rights, but was never required to pay any support for the children, and she could have because she has always had a stable job. (I hope that doesn't sound like sour grapes on my part). I'm just thinking that back then (30 years ago), my husband was pretty darn lucky to get full custody, and the courts probably felt that the woman didn't need to help provide for the children's support--imo. But, our financial struggles truly did put a strain on our marriage. And because of the children, the ex truly does remain part of the equation. It's just the way it is. It takes a strong person to parent and love another person's children, have the ex be part of their lives, and deal with all the stresses that come along with it. It can be done. But, it will take a special person. If you find someone--count your blessings. There are men out there who would be willing to do it. My brother, who had never been married before, married a wonderful woman who had been divorced two or three times before and she had six children. I'm not saying they don't have problems--they do--especially with the two youngest who are teens. But, they are making it work.

The apps I use on my iphone are: Weather (Handy to see what the weather will be for the next 5 days--wherever I might be) Scriptures (LDS, and I tend to read my scriptures more because I always have my phone with me) LDS Tools Stanza (Books you can read on your phone) eReader (Again, more books) Seismic XML (Just me, but I like looking up the earthquakes that have happened recently in the world) Calculator Maps (Use it all the time to find an address I have to drive to for the first time) Pandora (Music) Big Oven (Recipes) The Weather Channel REI Snow Report YouTube Skype Flixster (Movies) Sportacular (sports) Some of the games I play are: Sol Free (Solitaire) reMovem free Flood-It! CatchaMouse Tap Tap CannonGame CoolFacts PenguinLite Sudoku Hangman Word Warp Whirly Word I do a lot of traveling so I like these apps: Rick Steves Audio Europe Frommer's Travel Tools Translator HearPlanet Trailguru Currency Dial Codes

I love the sculptor Avard T. Fairbanks. I especially love his sculpture of Joseph Smith "The Vision". I love his sculptures at the Hawaiian Temple--"Hawaiian Motherhood" and "Lehi Blessing Joseph". The friezes on the Hawaiian Temple were also done by him and his brother J. Leo Fairbanks. Another of my favorites from Avard Fairbanks is "A Tragedy of Winter Quarters". This was originally shown at the reopening of the Chicago World Fair in 1934. That statue depicts a young father and mother, standing in a moment of silence over the open grave of their infant wrapped in a thin blanket. That particular sculpture always reminded me of my ancestors who came to Utah by wagon and handcart.

Dahlia, that's wonderful! I got teary eyed as I read your post.

I do agree that many of the posts are often similar and seem to be repeated. But, I also realize that to the new member who posted the question, it is new to them. And if some of the new members are like me, they don't know how to search a topic except by scrolling down a forum and reading every single thread. If there's a way to do a search by topic, I haven't figured it out yet. For some people, navigating around the computer just comes naturally, while for others, like me, it's a struggle. I ask my children and now my 8 year old grandson for help--and yes, even the 8 year old knows more than me when it comes to computer skills. For about a year I had come to lds.net as a guest before I actually was brave enough to finally register and post any replies or even any questions. The way I found lds.net was when I had a question and actually googled it and there it was on lds.net. And many people who post a question, (especially on the marriage and relationship,and advice forums) are doing so out of grief, fear, frustration, etc. and simply don't know where to go for help. This is an anonymous site, so they can ask without being fearful of reprisal or being found out. For many, who have sexually sinned, they know what they need to do, but I think they just need a boost of confidence (Yes, I can do it--I can go to my bishop and repent), and they need some affirmation--that they are still loved by their Heavenly Father. There are those, who don't want to do the right thing, and maybe they are hoping to be validated in their denial. But, for many of these people, they haven't been on lds.net enough to even know they can search through threads to see if their question has been answered. And even if they do some research, because the question they have is unique to them, maybe it isn't answered fully enough. Or if they are wanting validation of their sin, they might post hoping to get that validation. For me, I usually look at the join date of the person asking the question. If it's a new member, I realize they probably haven't read through all the threads to see if their question has been covered before, so I'm a little more forgiving of their post.

I'm an ISFJ Introverted 78 Sensing 50 Feeling 50 Judging 56 The second test I'm a white.

Jennarator, from my perspective of being a woman, I think most women feel guilt for what we inflict on our children--meaning we are not perfect parents. Most of my children are grown, my youngest is 17. I can see where I failed them in some areas, and yes, I feel guilt. But, also because I'm older, I can also see, that even though I wasn't the perfect parent, I loved my children, and still do, and that to me is absolutely the most important thing you can instill in your children--that they are loved. And I think for most kids, just knowing they are loved makes up for many of the failures of their parents. I also have the perspective of being a step-mother. My two oldest are now adults--in their 30's, and they have overcome their parents divorce. Not to say, it hasn't had a lasting impact on them, for it has, but they are productive, loving, caring adults. My oldest daughter has never married. I don't know if she ever will. She is beautiful, but her parents divorce has impacted her emotionally. She's afraid of marriage and commitment. She doesn't even put herself in a position to meet eligible men. She has, in fact, left the country to live in Asia, where she has even fewer chances to meet any eligible men. Her mother has suffered depression throughout her life and I think my step-daughter suffers this too. She refuses to get help for it. All we can do is love her, and accept her. My step-son has had other problems because of his parents divorce. He is married, and he and his wife are now expecting their fifth child. For him, he has had a hard time with emotional attachments to family--friends have always been extremely important to him. Since he has married, he seems to have realized the importance of family. But, I can still see some emotional detachment, which worries me. I realize there is only so much I can do. I did what I thought was best at the time as my children were growing up. I can see where I failed miserably in some areas. Other areas I have excelled. But, as adults, we/they can overcome upbringing, genetic issues (to some extent) and live productive lives. And, I'm always comforted by knowing that the Lord knows what we were born into, what issues we've had to deal with in our lives, and he knows the intent of our hearts. He is merciful. And He will be merciful with us and our children.

Wow! That's all I've got to say. And I'll say it again, Wow!

Tamiele, I don't know of any programs. That is to say, there may be something out there, but I'm just not aware of it. As for feeling inadequate, don't feel that you're the only one. I've been raised in the Church, wasn't active as a teen, but managed to turn my life around and went on a mission, went to college and got a degree, but I still feel inadequate and have a hard time contributing in Sunday School or RS meetings. For me, it's more a personality thing. I'm a follower, not a leader. I know of many converts who are great leaders in the church. My memory isn't that great, so I don't remember a lot of what I've read, but many (either converts or life members) seem to be able to pull out scriptures or church history from their head and are able to spontaneously contribute to the lesson. That's not my personality. I do admit, that my mission helped me tremendously. I had to speak in front of people and teach. So, I'm actually very comfortable in teaching adults or giving a talk in Sacrament Meeting. But, that isn't spontaneous, and that isn't really being in a leadership position, such as a Relief Society, Young Women's, or Primary President. I'll accept any calling given me, but leadership is not my comfort zone. To gain more self-confidence, I would continue reading the scriptures and study other gospel materials. Do something just for you that would enhance your self-esteem. We can overcome our weaknesses. And for me, sometimes, it's just "doing" that has helped--such as my missionary labors.

Why would you be sick of your Bishop, when he isn't the one actually causing the problems? Isn't it the boys who are being disruptive? I think I'd be upset with the boys, not the Bishop. Of course I don't know the whole story, but I wouldn't blame the Bishop for the boys misconduct. All Bishops have different personalties, and do the best they can. They aren't perfect. Some Bishops are more outgoing, and more assertive than other Bishops. I wouldn't categorize a Bishop as being a bad Bishop, just because I don't agree with the way he handles things. In my life there have been Bishops that I have gotten along with better than others, but that doesn't mean that the ones I didn't care for as much weren't good Bishops--it was just personality differences. The boys who are being disruptive or misbehaving shouldn't be ostracized from church. They need the church in their lives just as much as the kids who are trying to do their best. At least the boys are still attending, so there is hope for them, and hopefully the Spirit will eventually get through to them to repent and be more Christlike in their behavior. I wish I had an answer for you. It's a tough situation.