RMGuy

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What would happen to them if they didn't flee? -RM

Which God? -RM

You lost me at Ke$ha concert.... -RM

This from the person who compared loaning a temple recommend to "The violent rape and dismemberment of an Afghani (sic) woman..." lol, ok. -RM

I really respect The Traveler, but I am having a REALLY hard time with that. This smacks to much to me of the Nuremberg defense. Just follow the authority, even if you know it is wrong, because in this there is safety...and you will be blessed for being obedient even if it was wrong. I'm sorry I don't buy that, at all. When things are wrong we are supposed to stand up against them (in or out of the church) otherwise, to what purpose agency? -RM

Interesting read, and I'm curious as to what others think about this: Would you give each of the following a yes or no on if it is doctrine: 1. Scriptures 2. Conference Talks 3. Church Magazine articles written by the quorum of the 12 or first presidency 4. Church magazine articles written by others but vetted through the correlation committee 5. Official church publications (Manuals, etc.) 6. Unofficial publications (books) written by the quorum of the 12 or the first presidency. If I can take one other question on the to OP's original post I was once asked this question: "If every word that a prophet says is not prophetic, and if the only way that I am to know is to pray and receive confirmation, AND if I pray and receive personal revelation to do something different, then I cannot be in anyway faulted for doing so...correct?" Assuming of course that the individual is sincere and is not seeking to justify themselves, thoughts? -RM

Just a thought and I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but if this chafes you or your son the wrong way, then perhaps BYU isn't the school for him. There are a lot of good institutions out there. And as an aside there is NO WAY I would allow my oldest child to attend the Y. It would be hell on earth for her, and she would make it hell for others too. My middle child would thrive there. Just like Berkley isn't for everyone, neither is BYU. -RM

It's abuse. It was illegal. He is a criminal. He should count himself lucky that it is the law knocking on the door. If it was my daughter, he might have to deal with me...that would be much less pleasant. -RM

^This^ I would add and pray to have the Spirit with you that you can learn to love the giggly younguns! -RM

Anatess gave excellent, and I mean EXCELLENT advice. I would add a few of my insights if I may, and I recognize that not all will see things this way. For me, faith is a wonderful tool to bridge the gap and darkness where evidence and knowledge do not exist. If I have faith in something that is true the evidence (when discovered) supports that faith. If my faith was vain (in things not true) then the evidence (when discovered) does not support it. I have had experiences with both in the church. Second, agency and individualism are great things. You are free to be liberal in the church (Just ask Senator Reid), you are free to be pro-choice...otherwise my very independent thinking daughter would be in trouble (we disagree on this issue), and you can support gay marriage (welcome to the club). However, you have to recognize that there are some limits to some of those things. You can't advocate for gay marriage in Sunday School, and my daughter can't teach her Mia Maid class about why they should be pro-choice. Some people chafe under those "rules" because they seem them as restrictions. Others see it as being obedient but using their agency to have a differing opinion. Sometimes that navigation is not easy....but it is possible, and your opinions will likely change over time on many issues. Don't paint yourself into a corner. Good luck in your journey. -RM

Take the example from line 3 onward then, you are left with essentially the same thing. The point, for the OP, is that how you determine your honest tithe is between you and the Lord, and it is likely that whichever you way you decide will NOT be ok with someone else. It doesn't matter. What matters is if it is ok between you and the Lord. -RM

I totally get that estradling, but that doesn't give us wholesale license to manipulate the English language. Income has a very distinct definition. To the larger point, I understand exactly where you are coming from, but isn't that between the individual and the Lord? Perhaps an example: 1. A self employed individual (electrician) has revenue of $500,000 this year. His cost of operations from the business is $380,000 leaving him $120,000 He reinvests $40,000 into the business leaving him with $80,000 He pays taxes of $28,000 leaving him with $52,000 His expenses to run his family (mortgage, food, heat, light, etc.) run $27,000 leaving him with $25,000 He invests $10,000 of this for retirement leaving him with $15,000 Does he pay a tithe of $50,000 (that leaves him $35,000) in the red, $12,000. $8,000, $5,200, $2,500, or $1,500? (I know of individuals who have done all of the above and consider themselves and are considered by the church to be full tithe payers in good standing). If he tithes on the $10,000 that he invested for retirement, must he also then tithe on it when he withdraws the money, or only on the interest? Here is the statement from the handbook: "For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly." The brethren have defined interest for us as income. Income has a very distinct definition. The brethren are all very intelligent and educated individuals with years of business experience. I am sure that they understand the definition of income. Just my $.02 -RM

No, I'm saying that that is the pretty generally accepted definition of income. Self-employed individuals quite commonly regard income from the business as their personal earnings, but not all treat it this way. Regardless, revenue and income are not synonymous. Some individuals may choose to pay tithing on revenue as opposed to income which is fine and others on income as opposed to revenue (that is between them and God) but the definition above stands. -RM

The money donated in the ward stays in the ward and is the fund from which the Bishop draws to help those that have a need. If a ward is (In the red) then funds are made available from the stake or general moneys. If the pool of money at the ward level becomes too large, it is then subsumed to the general level. -RM

Income=(Revenue-Expenses) -RM

Congratulations (I think) or maybe condolences. When I served as an EQ president the one time we had a visit from the stake presidency. The stake president sat in while I conducted and we had our lesson. At the end we had a short PPI. He asked if I had any questions. Being the flip kind of individual I am I said "Sure. How do you motivate individuals that don't want to be motivated." I figured he wouldn't have a good answer for that. He paused for a second looked at me and then said something I'll never forget. He said, "Do you really want to know" Sure I responded. "You are doing it wrong. The priesthood does work by volunteers. It works by invitation and assignment. Don't ask for people that want to move Sister Smith this weekend...no one "wants" to do that. Instead invite members of your quorum to serve. If they have a reason why they cannot that you were unaware of, then you can excuse them from the assignment, and invite/assign someone else, that is the way it works." I was like....OH! -RM

Been there, Done that, have the T-shirt...and the scars. Brian's advice is spot on. -RM

LOL, It's not my fault you are eating sawdust...lol! Sure in comparison to that probably used motor oil tastes decent....but that still doesn't make Wonder good bread. -RM

Dude, no offense...but if you think WonderBread is "decent" you need to get out more! -RM

It was posted a little tongue in cheek, it seems a little too old testament for today's sensibilities. -RM

b61 -rm

If our spouses wanted to convert to another religion would we 'allow' them to believe as they wished? I don't know this, but I seem to see a lot of individuals that express concern or condolences as opposed to support when a spouse leaves the church. We attempt to pray, example, cajole, love, and guide them back to "the Truth". Perhaps this isn't so different from what the OP's spouse is portraying. I have always found it fascinating that when individuals leave the faith of their fathers to join the LDS it is a cause for celebration amongst our membership. But if someone that was BiC, RM, etc., leaves the church for something else it is considered a tragedy. I understand that we have "the Truth", but it does seem to me that sometimes we find it much more difficult to practice what we preach regarding agency and religious tolerance when the shoe is on the other foot. Just my $.02 -RM

Why Wow? -RM

Knowing the parties involved I'm pretty sure it was honest error. Both are great people. -RM