laronius

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  1. Like
    laronius reacted to Omergideon in Can God’s Glory Increase? A Tension I Faced within LDS Theology   
    I am echoing what others have said, but at it's root I think you have a misunderstanding of precisely what God's Glory is, and exactly what it means to increase it. I think part of the issue is the use of "increase" as that word can have 2 different meanings applied here.
    Firstly though, I will echo what @zil2 said. The verse you quote do not on my reading suggest that God's glory cannot increase. Now I do not believe any verse of scripture is so obvious in it's meaning that there is zero chance of misunderstanding, but I would not have drawn the conclusions you did from these verses.
    Isaiah 42:8 – “I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.” - My reading would be that God is making clear that nobody is able to take His place, and idols cannot replace Him. This is to me a testament of the Supremacy of God and not the self sufficiency of His Glory.
    Isaiah 6:3 – “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” - This to me reads the the Glory of God reaches every part of the world, not making any comment on it's completeness or impossibility to increase. Only that it is inescapable.
    John 17:5 – “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” - This verse emphasises to my eyes the primacy of the Glory of God. It existed before the world was made. Again no comment on it's sufficiency, increase etc
    Psalm 115:1-3 – “Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to your name give glory, for thy mercy and for thy truth's sake. Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.” - These to me speaks of some reason to Glorify God. That he is in heaven and not missing or a false idol. It also seems though, in the first section, that our praise of God in some way gives him glory.
    From this I feel the rest of your argument fails as I am unconvinced by the first premise.
    But back to "increase". Even if one were to believe that God is all sufficient etc as described, it would be impossible to deny that as God creates more beings there will inevitably be more beings that worship Him. His Kingdom becomes greater in size and scope as it includes more people and places. If God makes a world then there is another world in His Kingdom. By that logic His Glory is on a practical sense covering more and so much be greater in size. Each added person increases the scope of the Gory of God.
    By similar tokens, if we become Exalted then our acts of Creation (under our Father) must also increase the scale of His domain and thus in some sense His Glory.
    But, this is a separate issue to, shall we say, God's "rank" of personal Glory. He is already the Supreme being of our Universe. He cannot scale up or be overtaken. He does not become smarter, more capable, more wise (to our knowledge) or so on. He does not become more perfect and thus in that sense His Glory is unable to be increased. God is not in some sort of contest with other Divine beings so that as His realm increases in scale He gets to be more important than them. God would be perfect in Himself even if He did not create the worlds. But creating Worlds means more beings He can share love with, more places he is God of and so on.
    So in short, whilst God is Perfect and thus in that sense His Gory does not increase (He is not becoming better) as more is created and His domains increase then the scale of his Glory spreads further and further rendering him, simply, Glorious over more.
  2. Like
    laronius reacted to Traveler in Mosiah 8:16   
    I am unable to address with any experience or knowledge concerning a seer and revelator beyond the rare experience of conversing with one.  They are very guarded of the gift and will not speak to the gift directly – at least to me.   Even when speaking of a subject they will not necessarily distinguish the line between what they have been commanded to reveal as a seer from what their personal opinion.   I am of the opinion that it is up to the listener to understand through whatever the spirit can get through to them.
    Both the Doctrine and Convenance and the Book of Mormon speak to the purpose of spiritual gifts.  Other than the Apostles, I do not know of anyone that is given the gift of a seer and revelator, but all of humanity is given the gift to believe on their words – but not all will exercise their spiritual gifts.
     
    The Traveler
  3. Like
    laronius reacted to Carborendum in Mosiah 8:16   
    In mortality, there are many things which the Lord blesses us with.  Some of those blessings include some level of power.  As in all things spiritual, knowledge is power.
    Seership is an attribute of Divinity.  It does not make one divine.  Joseph Smith grew in knowledge and understanding.  At some point, his "peep stone" was not just about finding a needle in a haystack.  It became a tool for discovering great treasures of knowledge only knowable through Divinity.  At the point when he received this gift, he became a "seer" in the spiritual sense.  And he continued to grow in that role.
    There appears to be a graduation of this gift which can be shorthanded thusly.
    Peep stone Seer Stone Urim & Thummim Simply seeking and asking allows one to access divine knowledge.  (The all-seeing eye). Joseph grew in knowledge to become this top level.  He no longer needed the seer stone or the Urim and Thummim.  Most of us probably couldn't even use a seer stone to find that needle.
    I've often wondered what we're actually saying when we sustain our leaders as Prophets, Seers, & Revelators.  It is the Seer aspect that I question.  What level?  How often?
    I recognize that the Proclamation to the World was prophetic.  Was it just a bunch of wise men who saw the patterns of society and started to warn us?  Was it revelation similar to how we all receive revelation, but it was for the whole world?  Or was it given to them as an aspect of Divinity?
    The more I ponder, the more am I convinced that it was an act of a Seer (or 15 Seers).  But the world is not ready to accept such abilities in some rickety old man who can't even walk without help.  So, I think there is a lot going on that we're not aware of -- which the Brethren don't publicize.  But we'd do well to listen more earnestly to the messages given in General Conference.
    Why is it different from God's power?
    I'd say that "different" may not be the right word. It is an aspect of God's power.  And only God has the power of God.  As priesthood holders, we may be instruments to use the power.  But we don't actually "own" it. 
    Any gift, talent, ability, power from the Lord seems to be innate in many cases.  But the truth is that the Lord can take it all away at any time.
  4. Like
    laronius reacted to zil2 in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Keep in mind that anything prior to the Words of Mormon wouldn't have been influenced by Mormon. 1 Nephi through Omni were taken directly from the small plates - Mormon didn't abridge these, he just added the plates.  And "Jesus Christ" is definitely used in the small plates.  Now, that might be the English translation of what was used in the small plates, but one can't say Mormon inserted anything into this part of the record.
  5. Like
    laronius reacted to HaggisShuu in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    I hadn't considered Mormon's involvement thank you and I think you're right, Mormons abridgement likely got rid of alot of symbolism for brevity, and then Josephs translation got rid of even more of it to make the text understandable for modern readers. 
     
    We can read into Isaiah and Jeremiah etc, because we are able to study Hebrew culture, allowing us to make sense of the symbolism, structure and poetry. We aren't really able to study the Nephites in the same way, and so peotic and symbolic texts, probably would make little to no sense. 
  6. Like
    laronius got a reaction from HaggisShuu in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Jesus Christ has many names and titles so we don't actually know what the Nephites were calling Him. So you may be right that Joseph Smith used the name he was most familiar with. Also, it was the prophet Mormon who compiled the gold plated. He lived post Jesus' appearance so he may have simply used the name he was most familiar with.
    Another thought, some of the information pertaining to Jesus' identity may have been hidden to prevent false Messiah's. Once the Nephites separated that was no longer an issue. 
  7. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Just_A_Guy in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Jesus Christ has many names and titles so we don't actually know what the Nephites were calling Him. So you may be right that Joseph Smith used the name he was most familiar with. Also, it was the prophet Mormon who compiled the gold plated. He lived post Jesus' appearance so he may have simply used the name he was most familiar with.
    Another thought, some of the information pertaining to Jesus' identity may have been hidden to prevent false Messiah's. Once the Nephites separated that was no longer an issue. 
  8. Like
    laronius reacted to Traveler in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    There are some obvious things missing in the translation.  The term Christ is from the Greek.   The Hebrew term translated into English is Messiah.  Both are in reference to “the anointed one”.  There is still some confusion that has arisen from the Dead Sea Scriptures that there may be more than one “the anointed one”.
    There are so many ways that the ancient scripture text cause confusion, but one thing we can understand through the restoration (especially temple revelation) is that all of G-d’s covenant saints are anointed.  The ordinance of anointing is a precursor on the covenant path to a “oneness” with the Christ – who is also one with the Father, thus resulting in the Saints becoming one with G-d.  Of course, the traditional and creedal Christians are lost in a labyrinth of teachings that amount to the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
    The Biblical Book of Isaiah speaks clearly to the concept of apostasy and restoration.  The history of apostasy and restoration from Jesus to today clearly follows the type and shadow of Isaiah but is lost to most modern Christians.  Why?  Because as the apostasy took place, the Christians of the apostasy forgot Isaiah and thought that apostasy was a heresy or a change of doctrine.  Isaiah clearly taught that man becomes separated from G-d through transgression of the law, changing the ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant.
    If one uses the internet to investigate why LDS are excluded from those “Traditional” and “Creedal” Christians, you will find that it is always because of a doctrine that they claim is heresy.    And because of what they claim is heresy, the claim is, that LDS worship a “different” Jesus.
    As LDS we ought to be careful and mindful not to fall into the trap of apologetics of doctrine and instead hold to the Gospel of Christ.  Which is to love one another, have faith in Jesus Christ (which is the foundation of the law), be baptized by one authorized by Christ (which prevents changing the ordinances) and keeping the everlasting covenant (which is solemnized in the temple of G-d).
     
    The Traveler
  9. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Jesus Christ has many names and titles so we don't actually know what the Nephites were calling Him. So you may be right that Joseph Smith used the name he was most familiar with. Also, it was the prophet Mormon who compiled the gold plated. He lived post Jesus' appearance so he may have simply used the name he was most familiar with.
    Another thought, some of the information pertaining to Jesus' identity may have been hidden to prevent false Messiah's. Once the Nephites separated that was no longer an issue. 
  10. Like
    laronius reacted to zil2 in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Two thoughts:
    1. Deuteronomists removed clearer references to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the Messiah from the O.T. - whether His name was there or not, all clearer references were removed, especially if they indicated He was the Son of God.
    2. If the Nephites knew the name Jesus Christ (or the Hebrew form of it), it would not and could not impact their faith. Christ did not come to them until He was resurrected, when both the Father and Christ Himself declared who and what He was.  But if the people in the old world knew His would-be name ahead of time, then:
    That could have lead to a zillion people with that very common Hebrew name, some of whom could have falsely claimed they were the Messiah That could have impacted their need to have faith and choose whether to believe that Jesus was the Christ, because He worked quite a while before announcing who and what He was.
  11. Okay
    laronius got a reaction from Traveler in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Jesus Christ has many names and titles so we don't actually know what the Nephites were calling Him. So you may be right that Joseph Smith used the name he was most familiar with. Also, it was the prophet Mormon who compiled the gold plated. He lived post Jesus' appearance so he may have simply used the name he was most familiar with.
    Another thought, some of the information pertaining to Jesus' identity may have been hidden to prevent false Messiah's. Once the Nephites separated that was no longer an issue. 
  12. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Christology in the Book of Mormon   
    Jesus Christ has many names and titles so we don't actually know what the Nephites were calling Him. So you may be right that Joseph Smith used the name he was most familiar with. Also, it was the prophet Mormon who compiled the gold plated. He lived post Jesus' appearance so he may have simply used the name he was most familiar with.
    Another thought, some of the information pertaining to Jesus' identity may have been hidden to prevent false Messiah's. Once the Nephites separated that was no longer an issue. 
  13. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Backroads in Lovely LDS post on X   
    A sizeable percentage of those on the membership rolls of our church are not active. They didn't have to "escape" they simply stopped coming. I agree that leaving behind the cultural aspect of the Church requires significant adjustment but this video is not about closure. He is openly engaging our church but now as an antagonist. This is not escaping but attacking.
    Obedience to God's laws is the only thing that brings lasting joy. So to the extent that anyone obeys God's laws they can receive that joy in proportion. Our Church's mission is to teach a fullness of God's laws so people can receive a fullness of joy, if they so choose it. It's up to them. But we seek for those who are not content being just fine. 
  14. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The War in Israel may be at it's end.   
    In any society someone has to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong," whether it be economically, socially, whatever. But somebody has to decide it. I personally would rather it be me (us the people) rather than some ruling class. If we fail it's on us and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
    The influence of the US in the world is obviously both good and bad. But if it's have both or have neither then I would much rather be a citizen of most any nation with the US in the world than not. 
    Lastly, it's really hard to know what people really think about us. We know what they think based on what they are told about the US but that's not always accurate. And the less freedom a people enjoy the more likely their perceptions are skewed. 
  15. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Doc & Cov 58:21 vs plural marriage   
    This verse is a transition verse between the judgements falling on unrighteous Israel and the promises of righteous Israel (after it is cleansed). So it's probably speaking of a time imminent to the second coming or immediately following it. And while there may be a literal fulfillment of this verse I'm thinking the spiritual fulfillment may be related to the ten virgins and apply to both men in women in relation to The Bridegroom.
  16. Like
    laronius got a reaction from mirkwood in The War in Israel may be at it's end.   
    You sidestepped the whole point, which is that they haven't changed. And by "they" we don't mean the predominantly peaceful element of their religion but the extremists and more in particular the extremists who are in power.
  17. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in The War in Israel may be at it's end.   
    You sidestepped the whole point, which is that they haven't changed. And by "they" we don't mean the predominantly peaceful element of their religion but the extremists and more in particular the extremists who are in power.
  18. Like
    laronius reacted to NeuroTypical in The War in Israel may be at it's end.   
    I get that too.  My mind got blown on all this stuff a long time ago.   Slice of life: I like the "radio garden" app.  You pull it up and it gives you a globe like google earth, with a million dots all over it.  Each dot is a radio station, broadcasting out of the city and country indicated on the map.   I like scrolling around to random places and listening to what other nations play on the radio.   It's surprisingly difficult to go anywhere on earth, to any of those dots, and find a station playing something that ISN'T American songs from a decade or three ago.  
    Exporting notions of government by consent, inalienable human rights, free market capitalism, technological advancement: Good things.   Hooray.
    Exporting Hollywood skin flicks and Madonna's Like a Virgin: Not-quite-so-good things.  Sort of embarrassed.
     
    Perhaps you could use a bit of mind blowing, but every single nation on earth since the dawn of recorded human history operates the same way.  Nations all have a military class, a political class, and an economic class. If you're missing one of those, you're not a nation, you're part of someone else's nation.  The elites in each class vie with the other classes for power in the nation.   The three of 'em stand united as the nation vies against other nations.  Allies and enemies, treaties and warfare, leverage and power, culture and trade, all are levers pulled by each nation in order to make gains.  It's a human thing, not a US thing. 
    Everywhere.  All the time.   Without exception.  Us religious folks call it "our fallen mortal probation", a consequence of getting kicked out of the garden of Eden.   Folks on the left of the spectrum tend to think of it as "something we can win over if only we had just a little more government".    Just look at the thing: 

     
    Yeah.  The US is enjoying it's time as the world power.  Using our influence/power to do stuff for our benefit.
    One good thing we have with US empire, that we really didn't have with any of those other big pretty colors, was our empire wasn't really an empire.  More like a Hegemony - rule through influence and leverage and treaties.  We didn't move in and conquer.  Our military bases all over the world don't control the political class or economic class.  And where they don't run the military class, those are other people's nations. 
    Yeah.   I get being ashamed that the US did a thing to get more oil out of Iran.  I get thinking thoughts while stationed in Iraq and experiencing the hatred from some people there, and having a deep understanding and appreciation of it.  I even get rejecting the notion that "if it wasn't us, it would be someone else", which is what my point here boils down to.  But rejecting the notion is rejecting reality.   The US isn't perfect, and we've projected power in ways that other people don't like.  But I daresay we've raised the quality of life for more humans in earth, than any other nation on that chart, as measured in GDP, longevity, and freedom.
  19. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Vort in Doc & Cov 58:21 vs plural marriage   
    This verse is a transition verse between the judgements falling on unrighteous Israel and the promises of righteous Israel (after it is cleansed). So it's probably speaking of a time imminent to the second coming or immediately following it. And while there may be a literal fulfillment of this verse I'm thinking the spiritual fulfillment may be related to the ten virgins and apply to both men in women in relation to The Bridegroom.
  20. Like
    laronius got a reaction from zil2 in Doc & Cov 58:21 vs plural marriage   
    This verse is a transition verse between the judgements falling on unrighteous Israel and the promises of righteous Israel (after it is cleansed). So it's probably speaking of a time imminent to the second coming or immediately following it. And while there may be a literal fulfillment of this verse I'm thinking the spiritual fulfillment may be related to the ten virgins and apply to both men in women in relation to The Bridegroom.
  21. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in Lovely LDS post on X   
    A sizeable percentage of those on the membership rolls of our church are not active. They didn't have to "escape" they simply stopped coming. I agree that leaving behind the cultural aspect of the Church requires significant adjustment but this video is not about closure. He is openly engaging our church but now as an antagonist. This is not escaping but attacking.
    Obedience to God's laws is the only thing that brings lasting joy. So to the extent that anyone obeys God's laws they can receive that joy in proportion. Our Church's mission is to teach a fullness of God's laws so people can receive a fullness of joy, if they so choose it. It's up to them. But we seek for those who are not content being just fine. 
  22. Like
    laronius got a reaction from Anddenex in Lovely LDS post on X   
    How I Escaped???
    I wonder if these people ever really stop to consider every unique doctrine of our church that they must turn their back on in the process of "escaping." If the promises of the gospel aren't true, what in the world do they think they'll find that will bring contentment?
  23. Like
    laronius got a reaction from JohnsonJones in The priesthood and Black african men   
    That's why I said fewest holes. But it seems like I remember a discussion once upon a time on the BYU channel that talked about Joseph's wife not necessarily being racially Egyptian. A quick Google search found the "Ask Gramps" article making that same case but I don't know how much evidence there is to support that argument.
    https://askgramps.org/can-you-please-explain-how-ephraim-and-other-israelites/
  24. Like
    laronius got a reaction from SilentOne in Lovely LDS post on X   
    A sizeable percentage of those on the membership rolls of our church are not active. They didn't have to "escape" they simply stopped coming. I agree that leaving behind the cultural aspect of the Church requires significant adjustment but this video is not about closure. He is openly engaging our church but now as an antagonist. This is not escaping but attacking.
    Obedience to God's laws is the only thing that brings lasting joy. So to the extent that anyone obeys God's laws they can receive that joy in proportion. Our Church's mission is to teach a fullness of God's laws so people can receive a fullness of joy, if they so choose it. It's up to them. But we seek for those who are not content being just fine. 
  25. Like
    laronius reacted to mikbone in Lovely LDS post on X   
    I don’t really have an allegiance to the cultural aspect of the Church.  Some of my family’s best church memories were during COVID when we had Sacrament meetings in our home.  
    And I didn’t spend a second watching this boy’s hour long declaration of weakness.  Everything I needed to know came from the title and screen shot.
    Jesus Christ guides this Church.  Not man.  
    “choose you this day whom ye will serve⁠; … but as for me and my house⁠, we will serve the Lord⁠.”