Traveler

Often when I travel I visit a ward.  I am always asked where I am from.  Usually I respond with, "The Pre-existence".    When they discover I am more recently from Sandy Utah they will often respond with, "So you are from the factory".
Another note for @Blissful_Heart  I have attended LDS churches on 5 different continents.  Often I do not understand the language but I recognize everything else.   What is going on and being taught is without difference.  Even the missionaries there look the same.
 
The Traveler

I have learned many great and important truths reading the Book of Mormon.  Never-the-less I have been unable to obtain all the truths it contains for myself despite that I have read it many times.  I have often found that I have been helped to understand some truths I have missed by conversing with others that have also read the Book of Mormon.  At other times I have not been inspired by some claims others have made concerning what they say they have learned from their reading of the Book of Mormon or other “things” they believe are relevant.  This also applies to various claims of “studies”.
I do not know how or why it happens that some seem to read things and derive something very different than what I gain from reading the same thing (especially in scripture).  But I have learned that if I ask questions about how they concluded what they say from their reading and they become angry or condescending – with answers that seem to me to have nothing to do with my question.  It is going to be next to impossible for me – not just concerning the particular matter at hand but almost anything they would say.
 
The Traveler

At various times because of our callings both my wife and I have taught young men and young women how to live in tents and cook over fires (mostly coals).  I have taught how to backpack to youth.  It may come as a surprise to many but my wife and I have (only because we were called to do so) taught youth in our stake how to pull a hand cart with supplies in order to survive if someday it is necessary to travel in such a matter.  I have also taught young men how to build a snow cave and survive in temperatures as low as -30 degrees F.
All this because I was called to teach these things to youth.  But to be honest the only time I have needed a snow cave to survive in -30 degrees F is when I have been doing so – not as the option to survive but as a youth activity.
I do not know that pulling a handcart will be necessary – I do not know if snow caves will be necessary either.  Sometimes I think we teach such things – more to understand what can be done rather than what must be done.  I do not know what is necessary to prepare for the coming of our Messiah – but I believe we should doing things that will make us and prepare us to be physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
 
The Traveler

Elder Oaks has an answer for you.  Bold/italics/underlining mine:
“Judge Not” and Judging - By Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles - Aug 1999 Ensign
 
 
It sounds to me like person0's experience is a good example of a powerful and righeous intermediate judgment.  
 
 

This post explains a lot 
 
The Traveler

@Blissful_Heart 
I am a 5th generation “Mormon” - Old guy with grand kids and not far away from great grand kids.   I was taught in my youth that if I loved and honored G-d that I would serve a mission – which I did.  I have never encountered a missionary that did not love those they taught – even those that they taught that did not become members.  Often this great love of investigators developed by missionaries, go far beyond individuals to entire cultures in which young missionaries serve.  It is rare that any Mormon congregation is void of missionaries and previous missionaries that have learned through their service to dearly love new converts.  I am sure that with effort some exception could be found – but such would be the exception and not the rule.
As a side note.  Mormons once lived in the Midwest (in Illinois) and were driven from their homes during the winter.  This is part of our history – when our Prophet Joseph Smith was murdered and we (my ancestors included) were forced out of the USA into the western wilderness that was then Mexican territories.  One in 5 Mormons died of illness and exposure that winter in a place called “Winter Quarters”.  During our time of distress and great need there was only one Christian organization (church) that offered aid and relief – that was the Catholic Church.   Previous Catholics make some of our very best Mormons. 
I thought I would add that most of those I have taught and helped prepare for baptism on my mission were previous atheists – on my mission, I served a lot at Universities.   Now, as an engineer and scientist – I continue to spent much of my working experience with atheists.  After reading your post it dawned on me that often I will side with atheists as being less “tainted” or misguided in truths than those from the religious sector.  Thanks for helping me become aware of this!!!
 
The Traveler

I'll try to be as brutally honest as I can be.
Converts are seen as "real" LDS.  Many Converts become leaders of their congregations, leaders in the church, and integral parts of their wards and stakes.  Converts are just as real LDS as any other LDS.
Just like many other arenas, at times, there is a culture in the LDS church that affects some areas where there are cliques.  At times, one could say like attracts like.  Among some of these, for whatever reasons, at times, they will stick with each other and really don't associate with those who are not part of those cliques.  AT times, these are composed of those who were born in the church and grew up around others and are very common with the others.  They became a close knit group of friends and may have problems letting others in.  Other times it is centered around those of certain monetary status.  Sometimes it's based around those who are in a certain club or group.  The reasons and groupings vary from place to place and area to area.  This can, at times, make it seem like there are those who are considered the "real" LDS vs. those who do not fit into whatever this clique's representation seems to be.
This is more of a cultural thing than anything dealing with the doctrine of the LDS church. 
In the gospel, all are equal and loved in the Eyes of our Lord.  We all are given the same ability to attain the same blessings as any other.  Those who convert to the church have the same rights, blessings, and attainments as anyone who is born into the church. 
My family is not members of the church (my wife is and my children are members as is her family, my family is not).  In some ways, I have been blessed in ways that some members are not able to appreciate.  It means that I have the opportunity to try to bring the gospel to the rest of my family, or at least represent the LDS church to them.  It means that I have an understanding of life outside the LDS church, and have the chances to look to my ancestors in regards to that desire for an eternal family. 
If I remember, I believe a majority of LDS members ARE converts overall (I think in the time of David O. Mckay there was about 1 million members, where as today there is over 15 million members).  I good comparison is that in the year 1990 there were about 7 and a half million members.  That number has doubled in that time.  I believe that is mostly converts.  Thus in 25 years, the number of members have doubled and that is due to people converting to the LDS church.
This probably means a good 50-60% of all the members you meet will be converts.  If you get baptized, then you will actually be in the majority.  Good company to be in...eh?

Every member a missionary, isn't it?
The purpose of being a missionary is to call people to repentance.  That's what conversion is.

I would like to think that my association with Zion people would inspire me to do better but I do see the potential for embarrassment:
Priesthood leader: Our string of 99 months in a row of perfect home teaching came to an end last month.
Me: Doh! 

When I was the SS president I asked that an instructor be called for a hall Sunday School class as well as a 3rd hour class.  Have this individual walk the halls, take roll and give short spiritual encouragements to those wandering the halls – perhaps even having an opening and closing prayer.  The bishop vetoed my suggestion.
 
The Traveler

I have tried to determine BofM geography.  What I have found is a great deal of evidence that Jesus did indeed come and visit the Americas.  What I do not know is if what the Book of Mormon calls the Nephites and Lamanites were the only civilizations in the Americas he visited.  I have thought I have figured out BofM geography only to discover too many discrepancies with whatever model I have researched.
In short, I do not know – and have come to the conclusion that it is not important enough – yet – to G-d to reveal the truth of this matter.  Although I have an open mind in this matter – over the years I have become very skeptical of those that think they know – especially that have figured it out without any conclusive empirical evidence.
 
The Traveler  

I can see I was raised differently than most on this forum.  But then I am an old guy and it would seem I grew up in a different era and culture.  My first job started when I was 8 selling stationary, greetings and occasion cards and planning calendars door to door.  I would say that 80% of what I grew up doing and thinking proper would be considered child abuse by most today.  When I served in the army a young comrade died during a training exercise – it was because the training was intense.  
When I was released from active duty – I served a mission which is about the easiest, most carefree and funniest 2 years of my life.  I also used up all my savings on my mission.  The attitude of my parents growing up was that I could do whatever I wanted but I would have to finance it.  I could stay out as late as I wanted but for most of my life I got up at 3:00 am to go to work.  Having worked to provide for my activities, clothes and personal needs since age 8 – working through college was not a change in life. 
At college I had a couple of businesses.  Though I was busy with school and work I found time to go skiing every week.  In the summer I took some time off for scuba trips to Mexico.  But I was not an exception – my brothers also provided for themselves and were better at it than me.  I was sort-of the black sheep of the family because I skied and took scuba trips.  Though I thought my family was poor based on our home, car and living accommodations I was taught not just to not being lazy but to love and enjoy work.  As it turns out my father was wealthy – he just did not believe in living lazy.  What I thought was normal, I have come to discover is worse than unique – it is strange, disrespected and shamed by most in today’s society.  Rather than honor others for their work ethic we honor them for the “things” they accumulate and flaunt.
There are two great secrets to wealth.  Please note that I do not believe being rich and wealthy are the same things – though many think so.  The prodigal son was rich – being rich is wasteful and extravagant.   
First secret to wealth – Love hard work.  It is not enough to do hard work – you must learn to love and enjoy it.  Hard work must be more fun and exciting than play.  If it is not you may someday enjoy some riches but you will never be wealthy and happy without being excited to work hard.
Second secret to wealth – Spend less than you earn.  It does not matter how much you earn – just do not ever spend all of it.  If you feel you must have more to spend; then just work more.
 
The Traveler

I made this list:
#1. Calling someone to repentance
#2. Being critical of their ideas or understanding of doctrine
#3. Expressing a different opinion
#4. Testifying of Christ - especially the atonement
#5. Telling someone they have sinned against G-d and will be damned unless they have a change of heart
 
It is my opinion that #1 and #4 are basically the same thing and is what is meant by every member a missionary – declaring repentance.
#2 is very problematic.  In 3Nephi Jesus condemned the disputations over the name of the Church and this included those that were right.  In essence he told the ones that were right that they were wrong to criticize those of a different opinion.
#3 I do not believe has anything with calling someone to repentance but is how I think doctrine should be discussed.
#5 I believe is a contingent of stewardship – that like revelation G-d has designated that judging someone to be damned is a right (perhaps either the most sacred or very close to the most sacred right) of G-d and those specifically that G-d had delegated keys of being a judge in Israel. 
 
The Traveler

I have tried to determine BofM geography.  What I have found is a great deal of evidence that Jesus did indeed come and visit the Americas.  What I do not know is if what the Book of Mormon calls the Nephites and Lamanites were the only civilizations in the Americas he visited.  I have thought I have figured out BofM geography only to discover too many discrepancies with whatever model I have researched.
In short, I do not know – and have come to the conclusion that it is not important enough – yet – to G-d to reveal the truth of this matter.  Although I have an open mind in this matter – over the years I have become very skeptical of those that think they know – especially that have figured it out without any conclusive empirical evidence.
 
The Traveler  

In most discussions I am not so interested in a person’s opinion as the method or path they have followed to arrive at their opinion.  It is not always the case but it is often the case that opinions are arrived at without a clear understanding where it actually came from.  I do this often enough myself that it embarrasses me to admit it.
I also believe that most arguments or disagreements (but not all) come from one of two reasons.  One is because we do not listen carefully enough to what the other person believes and why they believe it.  But the second I believe causes the greater pain and anger and that is that we do not have a clear understanding of what it is we believe. 
I sometimes think that there is such a fear of being wrong that many become angry to have their opinions scrutinized.   It is kind of like a cornered animal that attacks and bites in defense.  Often, we put ourselves in a corner with the logic that if someone else is right – then we are wrong.  This means that the discussion no longer is a search for truth but a defense of territory of opinion.
There is also a tendency to think there is a correct opinion and all others are wrong.  The problem I have had with such thinking is that it often causes me to focus too much on a single point that I do not comprehend the greater picture.   In short seldom does someone want to discover what they have missed.  Because of the impression that if they missed something then they were wrong.  But this contradicts the line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept that is the method and path G-d takes us on to truth.  And so it is my opinion that Satan tempts us away from truth by flattering us that we know enough and do not need to add someone else’s insight.
 
The Traveler

I believe that the same individual that in D&C 121 told us to show an increase of love also said that increased or greater love is a willingness to lay down one’s life for another – as by example he did.  This is what is scary to me.
 
The Traveler

I believe that the same individual that in D&C 121 told us to show an increase of love also said that increased or greater love is a willingness to lay down one’s life for another – as by example he did.  This is what is scary to me.
 
The Traveler

Correct, traveler.  Fast offerings involves donations of food, access to resources to gain employment, etc.  Monetary assistance comes in the form of covering expenses.  Church assistance will cover a bill for you, but it won't give you money to cover your bills. 

Seldom is anything in life as simple or as complex as we think it is.  In my profession I am often tasked with testing "things".  It is usually at the boundaries of the extreme where “things” break down and fail.  It is my personal opinion that we learn the most about ourselves and others at the extremes when there is failure (much more than successes) – and perhaps that is part of why we experience fallen mortality.  Sometimes I think we may over judge failure of others and worry too much of it – unless it is our own failure.
Despite the failure – I have never found anyone that enjoys being reminded of their own failures – repentance is only fun and enjoyable when we get to or make excuse to; call others to repentance.  But I am also most impressed when someone is willing to apologize.  Probably because – at least for me – it is so difficult.
 
The Traveler

I just want to express my appreciation, especially to taking a mature, respectful approach to these topics and am sorry if anything I have posted came across in a negative way.  I don't feel I need to continually keep apologizing over & over again for it, as I already have numerous times.  But,  I will say again, that I do not understand everything, but I do know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.  Mr Folk Prophet , I am sorry if I offended you. I really have know idea anything about you, other then that you are LDS and married, I apologize to you.  I really don't understand why so many on this thread like to be so blunt, but I really do appreciate the few that have been really kind and compassionate and what I feel a Christ-like connection with.  I know I have made some mistakes.  I know people don't usually see a need to change there ways and I can be stubborn too, but I want you all to know that I have always been and am an active LDS member and am a very serious member, I mean, you know how some members go see movies that shouldn't be seen, and tv that shoudn't be seen, and do things on Sunday, the list goes on, I am not saying I'm better than anyone, but just to give you an idea of who I am, I have never b een that way, my spouse is not that way, and our kids are not that way.  We have 4 kids, 2 with special needs, 1 very severe.  He is 17 and like a toddler mentally.  He has high energy and is everywhere, like you wouldn't believe.  The other is high functioning autistic, doing a service mission.  He is our oldest.  Born with a rare congenital heart condition and has a feeding tube and 11 food allergies.  So, I'm sorry if I come across hard sometimes.  Life isn't easy, but its ok.  Maybe if we all get to know each other better, we can be kinder and judge less. Peace brothers and sisters.

Ok, I take that back.  Sorry

Heres a thought- the amount of money one spends on a new car payment every month is enough to clothe and feed a family of four every month. 

Scripture tell us that discipline is a matter of heart, might, mind and strength.  The problem with the Pharisees was not that they were too disciplined – actually it was that they were not disciplined enough concentrating only on the outward appearances of discipline – thinking that lip service (declaration and outward presentations were enough).
On another note – last year when I visited the country of Israel, one place I found interesting was the shrine of ancient Jerusalem which is a model of Jerusalem and the temple before being destroyed by the Romans.  At the shrine the nation of Israel prepared a video of what a traditional visit to the temple was like – going all the way back to the first Temple of Solomon.  Anciently someone coming to the temple would change to a white linen covering and enter a pool where they were “washed” by emersion to be ritually cleansed and purified before bringing a sacrifice to the temple for their sins.  I also learned that this ritual washing by emersion traditionally goes back to Moses and the Tabernacle and also when Josiah brought the Israelites to the river Jordan to wash everyone before they would enter the “promised land”.  Incidentally the place Josiah brought Israel was the same place Jesus came to John for baptism.
When I visited Qumran; there were ritual places for emersion washing.  I asked the trained guide authorized specifically for Qumran if that was the purpose and I was told that it was.  The point being that at the time of Jesus there were many baptisms both at the temple and other places – but only the baptism of John was acceptable – the difference of John’s baptism is not in Biblical scripture so we cannot use the Bible as the authority for why.   This leaves the Christians of today to wonder if their baptisms are of the authority of John’s or similar ot the authority of the Levites at the temple or the priests at Qumran.
Lastly, I would point to Acts chapter 5 and Ananias and Saphira that held back in their discipline (after accepting baptism for remission of sins) thinking that a complete and total commitment was not really necessary.  I leave Acts chapter 5 as an exercise to the reader to determine if G-d expects full or partial commitment in our discipline (discipleship).
 
The Traveler

No, nobody deserves what happened to the Fancher party.  The whole thing is a blot on our past, a stain on our history.    Brigham Young was involved - he saw it coming, and tried really hard to stop it.  He failed.  
Hide what happened?  You mean by publishing the story on our church website and writing books about it?
https://www.lds.org/topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/150th-anniversary-of-mountain-meadows-massacre
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/interviews-with-authors-of-massacre-at-mountain-meadows
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mountain-meadows-massacre
 
Hide what happened?  You mean by funding a monument for the site?

Your mistake is in taking Rich23 seriously. He obviously had no intention of engaging in rational conversation on the topic. He's an axe-grinder. Period. He comes onto an LDS site proudly proclaiming his not-a-Mormon-any-more status, and throws down the gauntlet of Mountain Meadows, hoping to enjoy the conflagration as he throws the lit match into the powder keg.
The very best thing to do with the Rich23s of the world is to call them on their duplicity and then refuse to otherwise engage with their dishonest selves.