Traveler

Thank you for engaging.  I would like to explorer with you why you think moral obligations are different than legal obligations.   I would think that if laws are not moral the only other possibility is that they are immoral.  I see this kind of thinking of disconnecting morals and law as most problematic.   Once in a conversation, a person insisted that morals and values cannot be legislated.   I was quite surprised with the logic - because for all that I have studied in law - morals and values are the only things our human societies can legislate.  We cannot legislate the universal gravitational constant, the value of pi or any such thing - we cannot legislate that the color red is really blue or that electrons do not have charge.
In fact the only reason I can see that any moral or value be legislated is because there is some disagreement in society as to what is moral and what of human value is of worth.  Thus the whole purpose of Law and the force of government (as near as I can logically determine) is to force by law the morals and values of one segment of the population upon all other segments that object or disagree.
This would mean that morals and values are important in society.  I do agree that families are the best and most effective institution to teach morals and values - but at the same time that does not mean that no other institutions in a free society need be concerned with morals or values.  In fact I believe all public institutions must be moral and reflect values.  One may ask the question - "What or whose morals and values?"  That is the question of the day.  And the answer to such question is the very structure of law in any society - even the basis of all sustainable relationships of two or more individuals.
I think it is worth while to discuss and debate morals and values - but I think it is not smart to disconnect (or even try to disconnect) morals and values from law the the force of governments.
 
The Traveler

If you insist on everything being written - you may be a lawyer or perhaps a successful business man - the kind I do not like having anything to do with.  As humans we communicate symbolically - usually with words.  Seldom is the intended meaning completely encapsulated in the words used - on occasions the context may be more important than the words themselves.  Never did Brigham Young teach that any human was not a child of G-d or that G-d loves some of his children more than others.  It is important to understand that the era in which Brigham Young lived - it was widely believed that Negros were not descended from Adam and were creatures (sometimes called mud creatures) less than human.  Brigham never taught that priesthood and temple blessings would never be extended - In essence he taught that it would come at another time.  All that we know now by revelation is that now is that time.  
Your post imply that you know something about this matter that I don't.  If you know that Brigham Young should have revealed that Blacks should have been given the Priesthood and Temple blessings in his day and not later - I would be most interested why.  I have pondered this question for most of my life and have not found a logical reason - or even a spiritual one.  Someday I will know the answer - weather it be this life or the next.  I have a very long list of unanswered questions - I have said this before - from time to time I find answers to questions but it seems that when I do there are a thousand new questions that arise.  
I am personally grateful that Blacks can now hold the priesthood and attend the temple - I can say that such is an answer to many heartfelt personal prayers even though I do not understand at all what changed.  I see no evidence that anything changed that Brigham did not have some (at least in part) understanding.  If you have contrary evidence I would be very interested.
 
The Traveler

The LDS can create a school system much like the Catholics do - all community-started and funded - especially in places with large LDS population.  It would be a private institution owned by an LDS group and affiliated with the Church as far as oversight goes.  These schools would not need to use tithes.  I believe it is doable especially with the number of LDS children who do not avail of the public school system.  A private LDS college much like Notre Dame for the Catholics is also doable with the help of benefactors.  South Virginia University is such a college with Marriott as the benefactor.  I'm not sure if the Church discourages LDS schools or if none of them crop up due to cultural reasons.  Places like the Philippines would jump at the chance at opening an LDS K-12 school instead of sending their kids to the Catholic School next-door!

I have often wondered whether it would be appropriate for the Church to expand the BYU system by opening various campuses around the US and the world. I strongly suspect such a thing would be financially unsustainable. It's evident that the Church leadership has mixed feelings about being in the education business, and there is a strong reluctance to expand traditional educational institutions and opportunities. Personally, I'd love to see BYU-LA, BYU-Independence, BYU-São Paulo, BYU-Paris, etc. But I'm highly dubious any such thing can or will happen, and I bet it wouldn't go according to plan even if they tried it.
BYU-I has been experimenting for years, and with pretty good success (so I've been told), with a distance learning model. How that shakes out as far as college degrees and employment goes, only time will tell.

I do not believe that those accepted at BYU are divinely called or specified through revelation.  I think there are people that make this determination and that it is possible that the spirit of G-d is not the determining factor.  I do not think the resources of the church are so that education is impossible - rather I believe we are in a new era.  It appears to me that building temples has become a greater priority than building Universities.   
I have often wondered - wondered because I met my wife at BYU.  I cannot imagine  how we could have otherwise found each other.  In my generation it would seem that perhaps as much as 80% of the strong family foundations throughout the church had connections through BYU.  I am quite certain that is no one is better for me than has been my beloved wife.  None of our children have attended BYU and thus none found their spouses as my wife and I.  Their struggles have been different enough that I am not certain if it is the matter of not meeting at BYU or other factors in our society.  But I believe that the temples are more important than universities.  And that we should be more engaged in preparing our children to attend the temple than to attend BYU or any other university.
 
The Traveler

Just for information - I have some apartments in Provo within easy walking distance of the BYU campus.  I have dealt with the BYU student housing administration.  I believe I can say with authority that there are bureaucracies at BYU that have nothing to do with the "restoration" or principles of the gospel and that the housing authority have never helped any of my tenets - ever - I can understand them giving me a hassle but not my tenets.  If you are eyeing property in Springville - you son may have a hassle with the bureaucracy that you will find frustrating but if he plans on having BYU roommates you are in for some surprises and I can say (with some authority) you will ruin the friends of your son (trying to be his roommate) experience at BYU.
 
The Traveler

No, this is incorrect. The cruise is funded by the sponsoring organization.
"Our" tithing is not ours at all. It is God's. It is merely our privilege to pay tithing and receive the blessings, spiritual and otherwise, that come from that law. The disposition of the tithes gathered is not our concern or, frankly, our business. Section 120 provides for those decision-makers, and does not include "tithe-paying Saints" among them.
I can fully understand Saints that feel ownership of BYU and some kind of inheritance right to send their children there. But that's not how it works. My understanding and even sympathy doesn't change the fact that the tithes are the Lord's money to do with as he (or as his appointed leaders) see fit.

His "change" to your quote was clearly marked as such. No one who reads his post will think you wrote that. No need to get in a snit.
For that matter, his change to your quote did indeed make it more accurate. You admit that the reason for the Priesthood ban is unknown, so claiming it was done without revelation is equally moot to claiming it was done with revelation. Unless you were actually trying to be biased and leading in your statement -- on which point we give you the benefit of the doubt -- saying the two claims are "equally incorrect" is more accurate than stating that one was "moot" without mentioning that the other was equally moot.

I think too many parents think of their children as extensions of themselves rather than independent individuals with agency and freewill.  Children raised thinking they are privileged or better than others (especially because of their parents and especially because of what such parents can purchase with money) - are one of the worse possible problems of human societies.  I was taught this by my parents - that I thought were poor and needed my help to support the family until, while in college - I discovered otherwise.
BTW - Not that it makes any difference but I was raised in Provo, two blocks from the campus of BYU.  The neighborhood I grew up in is now overcome with BYU students - and I am not sure it is an improvement.
 
The Traveler

Hey, that's cheap and easy. Let me play, too.
As far as is known, there is revelation behind the Priesthood ban.
Lookie thar! An equally true statement!

No, I understood you were speaking about a few of his statements, not all of them. I am also in understanding that as with all these new policies (which have been given through revelation) we only know the revelation, we do not know all the conversations that were had before such events. We do not have all that was said.
However, maybe I have misunderstood, as when I read your comment I hear someone saying President Young was wrong with the priesthood and temple ban, or the current leadership is wrong. If you are indeed saying this, then you are inferring far beyond your priesthood stewardship and lack of keys and I can readily disregard and say you are wrong, as both can be correct. The reasons one gives can indeed be wrong (as already expressed by Elder Oaks). The revelation can still be right.
If you are merely stating one of BY's quotes was wrong, then indeed this is a truth for everyone. Imagine if everyone pulled up what we have said, and how many times we would be wrong? When quotes are opposing, obviously one is right and one is wrong. But I don't see you just specifying a quote. It appears you are clearly inferring the former, "The priesthood ban was wrong, or the current brethren are wrong." If so, both can be correct, and what @Traveler shared is more accurate. If I am wrong regarding what your statements are implying, then you can clarify.
 
 

It would be more accurate to say that you do not understand how both could be correct.
 
The Traveler

@Vort and @MormonGator
As much as it is human nature to rape and murder - it is also human nature to love and have compassion.  As much as I have traveled and talked to many peoples in many lands - It is my general understanding that the nature to rape and murder is actually much less prevalent than love and compassion.  In addition I am convinced that humans are an advanced intelligent species and that without a greater inclination towards love and compassion that the human race would not have survived.  
 
The Traveler

It would be more accurate to say that you do not understand how both could be correct.
 
The Traveler

I am not sure that those that have this kind of opinion - realize that citizens should not be separate from military personal - that historically if the military is separated from the citizens it is likely and  probable that those in the military will determine they should run the country - and such societies have no means (power) to stop them.  It is often the case that dictatorships separate citizens from a military obligation.  I believe our forefathers believed in a citizen army where every citizen has both a right and obligation to not just have a say in what the military does but to also serve in the military.  In other words that free citizens have a military obligation.  In essence if citizens do not feel obligated that such a society will not and even should not remain free.
 
The Traveler

@Vort and @MormonGator
As much as it is human nature to rape and murder - it is also human nature to love and have compassion.  As much as I have traveled and talked to many peoples in many lands - It is my general understanding that the nature to rape and murder is actually much less prevalent than love and compassion.  In addition I am convinced that humans are an advanced intelligent species and that without a greater inclination towards love and compassion that the human race would not have survived.  
 
The Traveler

When there is a possible disagreement - I try to approach thoughts from a different logical perspective - especially when I think others are not considering certain points of logic.  So rather that bare testimony about accepting all callings - I may say something like, "It has been my experience that when ever we accept a calling there are blessings - which means that whenever we turn down a calling we are in essence refusing blessings."  Then I may say something like, "you may not need blessings but for me most of my very most sincere prayers are pleas for much needed blessings."  For me, there has never been a sacrifice made for a calling that the windows of heaven did not open and return 10 fold blessings.  I believe it would be more foolish to turn down a unwanted calling than to turn down a million dollar inheritance.   Money will not last in eternity as much as blessings - and to be honest - I will not force others to accept a million dollar inheritance or a unexpected (unwanted) calling - but I would make the best of any opportunity that may come my way.
Someone may not accept their next calling but when they kneel in prayer with the tears of their family - they may remember that it may be the now most needed blessings that they refused.
 
The Traveler

@Vort and @MormonGator
As much as it is human nature to rape and murder - it is also human nature to love and have compassion.  As much as I have traveled and talked to many peoples in many lands - It is my general understanding that the nature to rape and murder is actually much less prevalent than love and compassion.  In addition I am convinced that humans are an advanced intelligent species and that without a greater inclination towards love and compassion that the human race would not have survived.  
 
The Traveler

Another way to look at this is to ask - how much more must Jesus suffer for those sins before you will say enough to his pain and sorrow - that the sin has been forgiven in your heart?
 
The Traveler

It would be more accurate to say that you do not understand how both could be correct.
 
The Traveler

When there is a possible disagreement - I try to approach thoughts from a different logical perspective - especially when I think others are not considering certain points of logic.  So rather that bare testimony about accepting all callings - I may say something like, "It has been my experience that when ever we accept a calling there are blessings - which means that whenever we turn down a calling we are in essence refusing blessings."  Then I may say something like, "you may not need blessings but for me most of my very most sincere prayers are pleas for much needed blessings."  For me, there has never been a sacrifice made for a calling that the windows of heaven did not open and return 10 fold blessings.  I believe it would be more foolish to turn down a unwanted calling than to turn down a million dollar inheritance.   Money will not last in eternity as much as blessings - and to be honest - I will not force others to accept a million dollar inheritance or a unexpected (unwanted) calling - but I would make the best of any opportunity that may come my way.
Someone may not accept their next calling but when they kneel in prayer with the tears of their family - they may remember that it may be the now most needed blessings that they refused.
 
The Traveler

@Vort and @MormonGator
As much as it is human nature to rape and murder - it is also human nature to love and have compassion.  As much as I have traveled and talked to many peoples in many lands - It is my general understanding that the nature to rape and murder is actually much less prevalent than love and compassion.  In addition I am convinced that humans are an advanced intelligent species and that without a greater inclination towards love and compassion that the human race would not have survived.  
 
The Traveler

@Vort and @MormonGator
As much as it is human nature to rape and murder - it is also human nature to love and have compassion.  As much as I have traveled and talked to many peoples in many lands - It is my general understanding that the nature to rape and murder is actually much less prevalent than love and compassion.  In addition I am convinced that humans are an advanced intelligent species and that without a greater inclination towards love and compassion that the human race would not have survived.  
 
The Traveler

Meh. Smart people doing dumb things is as common as the sun rising in the morning.

You are incorrect.  I don't like the Savage Nation but he's far from a babbling idiot.  And biased information doesn't make a fact false.  "The sun rises in the east" is true regardless of whether a left-winger or a right-winger presents the information.
@Traveler made it sound too peachy.  The report actually states that 71% of today's youth between 17-24 years old can't qualify for military service even if they have the desire to join the military due to these 4 main factors:  1.) Health - 32%, 2.) Physical Fitness - 27%, 3.) Education - 25%, 4.) Criminality - 10%. Some youth are disqualified for more than 1 reason.