A Gentle Request

[Jenamarie]

Hopefully I can word this as to offend as few people as possible, but I feel strongly that I need to address something.

When I first started questioning the church back in November I almost immediately ran into several walls. Whenever I would ask my husband, or someone else I trusted one of the difficult questions about the church, one of these things always happened:

1. They accused me of reading anti literature

2. They accused me of "thinking too much" about a negative story or part of doctrine

3. They accused me of "trying to plant seeds of doubt"

4. They told me my question "didn't matter" or make the gospel untrue

5. They told me to "just pray" and not worry about trying to sort it all out for myself.

Nobody tried to actually answer my questions, or address my concerns.

If it hadn't been for the deep love I have for my husband, and my desire to look really really deep before I lept out of the church and broke his heart (because I knew I wouldn't want to go to church with him anymore, and he told me he'd be heartbroken to lose the "eternal" part of his marriage to me) I probably would have left within the first few weeks of my questioning. Eventually I found that there *were* answers to my questions out there, but it was without help from anyone within the church. Everyone either brushed me off, or told me to "just pray about it", which was difficult for me to do, when I wasn't even sure at the time who God *was* and didn't know if I was praying to a God who was at the head of a Godhead, or a triune God. My testimony was hanging on a string, and no one seemed willing to offer some of their testimony strings to mine to strengthen me.

And now I'm finding much of that same attitude here, and it breaks my heart. In the past month I've seen people who I felt were genuinely searching for answers to the difficult questions they had about the church have their questions left unanswered, while the sourcses and motivations for their questions were attacked. They must have been reading misleading anti-literature. They must be looking for any negative thing they can about the church and willing to believe it over anything positive about the church. They must be here to try to drag down the Testimonies of others.

It needs to stop. IT IS 100% POSSIBLE TO HAVE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CHURCH AND CHURCH HISTORY WITHOUT READING ONE WORD OF ANTI-LITERATURE! It happened to me. I very very nearly gave up my membership in the church because I was feeling lost, and it seemed like NO ONE in the church was willing to lift me up. I felt like I was having my intelligence questioned as being the cause of that lost state.

Please please please be as loving as you can towards those who have difficult questions about the church. If people in the church don't love them hard and work to help them find answers, even if it's just offering to pray for them during their search that they'll be able to find them, then there are plenty of people in other Christian denominations who will give them the love they're craving, and provide them with "answers" to their difficult questions. If people within the church are so unwilling to give answers, where else does the questioner have to go?

[Guest tomk]

Jena:

Thank you for this post.

I think at least a few members fear deep questions because they find their own knowledge and faith are lacking. They have the same questions, and are embarrassed that they don't know the answers or cannot explain some point of doctrine. So they react as you have indicated above.

Speaking only for myself, I grew-up in the Church. Baptized at age 8. Priesthood at the usual ages, 12, 14, 16 and 18. 4 years of early morning Seminary. 2 year mission. Sealed in the Salt Lake temple.

And then I went inactive for 10 years.

When I finally came back into full activity, it was because I wanted it. For the first time in my life, I began seeking for the Lord in earnest. Up until that point, I had taken the Church and the Lord for granted. Many people experience this, even life-long members. Many lifelong, outwardly devout members of the LDS Church are not converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ! Why? Because they have never STOPPED and QUESTIONED their beliefs. Not really. And because they have not STOPPED and QUESTIONED their beliefs -- they do not OWN them. Their beliefs are not THEIR beliefs, but somebody else's beliefs that they just regurgitate when they bear their testimony or participate in Sunday school lessons.

This is not a criticism. It's just a natural, normal part of growing-up in the Church. Just because you have a long line of membership in your family line gives you no special position or priviledge. Even members of the Church since age 8 must experience the REBIRTH and BECOME CONVERTED!

It took me until age 34 to actually become converted. And even so -- it is still a process -- a process that requires daily course correction and repentance. I must begin each day by approaching the Lord and trying to connect with Him -- or soon I find myself becoming lax and slipping back into old habits.

The Church can bring you so far in your progression. After that, the person who leads you along is Jesus Christ, Himself. By and large, the things spoken from the pulpit are primarily for the new convert. Same goes for Sunday worship services. The Lord leads us personally the rest of the way. The needed knowledge and instruction comes directly from Him, and Him alone. By necessity, the Path is customized and individualized for each person, and the Lord Himself ministers to us.

You can always take your questions to the Lord, Jena. Don't worry about whether members respond positively to your questions. Take your questions to the Lord Himself, directly. He will not upbraid. :)

Love,

Tom

[skalenfehl]

Jenamarie, I have watched you grow in your posts since the first day you introduced yourself. I can only hope that I personally did not contribute to your frustration. I know I can be very bold, but it is with much love for my brothers and sisters that I express myself.

I agree that there are members who have become less sensitive to the needs and pleadings of our fellow brothers and sisters who have lost their way and are truly seeking their way back to the iron rod. I think that church members have become too conditioned and calloused at times by persecutions and the proverbial pointing and laughing from those in the great and spacious building that they do not distinguish them from those who are seeking to restore their faith in the swirling mists of darkness.

I am thankful to you for your dedication and willingness to be a part of the forum and for your sensitivity to bringing this up. It has certainly caused introspection on my part. Thank you for this post. Best wishes.

[HiJolly]

I was born in the Church, much like Tomk; Same progression as he; But I never left. And my first real questions concerning the Church came from learning about science and reading anti-Mormon literature.

My first anti- literature was a pamphlet on my winshield at the Universtity, concerning Brigham's Adam-God teachings. I didn't get a satisfactory answer on that one for over 20 years.

But I already knew from personal experience that God was real, that He cared about me, and that the Church was not a problem. So, the rest was relatively easy for me.

I love to answer questions from interested parties. So few are sincere, though, here on the 'net. (sigh).

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

It needs to stop. IT IS 100% POSSIBLE TO HAVE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CHURCH AND CHURCH HISTORY WITHOUT READING ONE WORD OF ANTI-LITERATURE!

Joseph Smith talked about doctrines and principles he received but could not pass it on for the fear of people leaving the church in his time. Yet, I had a few questions that I asked on the Ey-L board years ago, only to receive my answer via the Holy Spirit after months of exhausted study. They were too busy either arguing or plain arrogant. Thanks to the Holy Ghost promptings though....

recap, I could say, we all have questioned gospel doctrinal points and asked for help from those who claimed to know more and felt the swift sword fall at our necks.

Excellent post Jena.

[Vanhin]

Jenamarie,

Though I cannot recall a time when some unanswered question about the Church led me to question my faith, I can appreciate your post. I imagine that the way some members react to difficult questions when presented to them can be very frustrating.

There are many things we simply do not have the answers to because of the absense of clear records, and it can be difficult for even learned historians of the Church to explain these things, but they shouldn't have to. If our faith ever had it's basis on historical events of the Church, then I can see where this would make a difference, but it really doesn't. This is where I take a slight objection to something you wrote, which is actually a common gripe that people struggling with difficult questions usually have. That is that they are often told to "just pray about it". For some reason that answer is not only unsatisfactory to the struggling individul, but it seems to upset them. But why?

It has never been the claim of this Church that it's truthfulness is based on the fairytale lives of our past leaders. The missionaries don't teach that, and as far as I have observed, neither does the curriculum of the Church. Now, we do have some remarkable claims, such as the visitation of heavenly messengers, and God himself conversing with Joseph Smith. However, we don't have physical scientific evidence, like the world would demand, to back up those claims. We teach that our message is true because God says so, and a person can find out for themselves directly from God about it's truthfulness. That involves prayer...

Laman and Lemuel can help illustrate this. Lehi had beheld a vision where many things were revealed to him, including things related to his posterity and the latter-days. Nephi admitted that some of that stuff was "...hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord...", and so he went and prayed about the things his father has spoken about. God opened up a great vision to Nephi, and allowed him to be a witness to the message. When he returned to his fathers tent after the vision, he was worn out, and "overcome" because of the things he had seen. He found Laman and Lemuel disputing with each other about the things that Lehi had told them about. After he had regained his strength, Nephi went over to find out what their problem was. Here's what happened:

And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations. And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord? (1 Ne. 15:6-8)

What a pure, plain, and simple concept. Have you asked God about this? Of course they had not, and the account continues:

And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts? Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you. (1 Ne. 15:9-11)

There's not a question that we have, that we cannot bring before God in prayer. If we don't harden our hearts, and ask in faith, believing that we will receive, and if we keep the commandments, the answer will be made known to us.

Though that advice seems rote, and redundant, it is the way to a resulution of our concerns; to bring them to the Lord that is. He is mighty, and can help us see things that we cannot see on our own.

I submit that the most effective way to alleviate our concerns about Church history, is to gain a knowledge from God about the truthfulness of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. Simple as that. And the best way to gain that is to read, study, ponder, and pray about the Book of Mormon. God has promised to let us know by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true. We can also bring our other concerns to the Lord, by this same process, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, he will answer us.

If we already know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, and the Book of Mormon is true, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church, then it doesn't matter if we read something peculiar about the past or present leaders of the Church. At that point we can safely chalk it up to our own lack of understanding, and that one day we will have all the pieces and will be able to see clearly the circumstances. However, we need not assume the worst, but the best instead. I am confident that Joseph Smith was a righteous man and so was Brigham Young, and all the prophets. God calls righteous men to that calling, and will replace them if they go astray.

Anyway. I know my post was long, but I hope it was of some value to this conversation.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited June 19, 2008 by Vanhin

[Tough Grits]

...I know I can be very bold, but it is with much love for my brothers and sisters that I express myself...I think that church members have become too conditioned and calloused at times by persecutions and the proverbial pointing and laughing from those in the great and spacious building that they do not distinguish them from those who are seeking to restore their faith in the swirling mists of darkness...

I agree with much of what skalenfehl stated in his own post.

I come here for conversation, for the sharing of ideas, and for fellowship.

It grieves me greatly to see others (here and in our own personal lives) belittle each other and antagonize each other.

If somebody has a sincere desire to know more about the Church, or finds themselves questioning things they have been taught...I see nothing wrong with reaching out and trying to find answers from anybody and everybody that they can.

However, I do have an issue with name-calling, back-biting, and being rude to the thoughts and opinions of others.

I do not belittle or make fun of Catholics, Buddhists, Scientologists, or any other religion. I believe that there is truth all around us, and it is up to us to lift each other up and help each other to be the best we can be, regardless of our religion.

But there have been times, especially recently on these threads, where it is a religious mud-slinging.

Religious mud-slinging teaches nobody. That is not how the Savior taught. That is not the example that he set.

I also believe in following the posted rules of a site. We all agreed to accept those rules and abide by them when joining this site.

I do believe that there can be VERY healthy discussion, growth, and sharing on this site, but I think too often things get off track when others get into a match of pride, arrogance and supposed wits.

That is not how the Spirit operates. That is not how the Savior taught others or invited them to the fold.

My issue is how we treat each other, not necessarily what is being discussed...as long as the topic itself is within the rules of the site.

I think knowing the perspective of others is vital in getting along on these kinds of forums. My perspective is from a place of sharing without fighting, sharing without name-calling, sharing without ridicule, and sharing without calling the intelligence of others into question.

I will defend anybody's right to express their heartfelt opinion, regardless of whether they are LDS or not. I was once agnostic. I remember what it was like to be persecuted in school by the "religious" children who thought me evil for being agnostic. I know what ridicule is from both ends...being non-religious, and being religious.

However, I will also defend my own right and agency to not have to be subjected to an absense of the Spirit because of ugly, childish behavior.

[Hemidakota]

Toughgrits...I would stand by you any day. LOL In all seriousness, [example here from another thread] I can say, I would defend MikeUK opinions. I for one understand his frustration expressing his point. However, it is perplexing to see others who don't.

[Jenamarie]

My issue is how we treat each other, not necessarily what is being discussed...as long as the topic itself is within the rules of the site.

This is what I'm getting at. Thank you.

[prisonchaplain]

What a wonderful heartfelt post (the OP). I have a general question. Often Christian young people go through their questioning period during college. In fact, this is an age group in which we lose many. The church's respond has been:

1. Try to allow in our church-sponsored institutions for honest, frank inquiry, as our "children" become adults and make the faith their own.

2. Provide church-sponsored clubs (ours is XA - Chi Alpha) for our students who attend 'secular universities.'

So...how are the BYU schools in this arena? It's a faith-promoting environment, but does it support those students who need to explore difficult questions?

And...is there an LDS club for university students outside the BYU system?

[PapilioMemnon]

Thanks Jenamarie for sharing this.

I really dislike personal attacks and am sensitive to the way people treat each other, they way they express/communicate ideas, thoughts, etc.

It is not easy though to put a "feeling" along with words that we are not speaking, but typing, and unfortunately, the tone can be easily misinterpreted.

I too have always been very straightforward, and can be very bold, but I do not use my words, but the Savior's, and sometimes they are words that I can only state, not excuse.

I'm a member of the church since 94, and by the time I found the church, I had already studied the Bible so much (Coming from a Catholic faith & attending a private Catholic school & actively participating in studies), and looked into other Christian beliefs & denominations, that when I found it, I KNEW what I had found it; I immediately recognized it. It took me 1 month & a half to be baptized, and that long only because I had chicken pox - Yes, I got at 21 from my son :-( ,at the time and couldn't attend the meetings. I don't say that to boast... I'm just stating what happened to me. Since I was a young, very young girl, I felt attracted to religious things, and had an inherent belief in Heavenly Father, and all that not because of my parents, for they did not raise and teach me about these things, but I sought them myself (How does a young girl, +-8-9 years old, goes to a beach house for summer vacation with her sister (4 years older) and babysitters/maids, and only have the parents on weekends, wake up each day and goes at 8am to church ALONE (Right next door)? My parents wouldn't attend church, just weddings, baptisms, etc... and just had general beliefs about the Lord and His teachings, nothing else! I used to read the Bible alone at home; it was my favorite book! I just understood why I felt this way, had such desire to be involved with the things of the Lord, and serve Him, when I got my Patriarchal Blessing!

I can't recall having any questions (Doubts) about the faith & church even though I did questioned, studied, and compared with the Bible as the missionaries taught me. I was just in such a state of awe, almost not believing what I had found, that I just wanted to clarify things... I had found everything I had thought it had to be, and the way it's supposed to be! I didn't have any doubts! But I worked to receive a witness and testimony of all things, and I still do it now, and every so often I ask the Lord to refresh my memory so that my testimony can continue to grow strong!

I'll try my best to reach out to those who have difficult question, and will try to answer them to the best of my current knowledge, and if don't know, I will try to find from true, accurate sources to offer accurate answers to those who are looking for them.

If I do fall short, please, kindly let me know also; I'd really appreciate to have the opportunity to do something about it.

[john doe]

What a wonderful heartfelt post (the OP). I have a general question. Often Christian young people go through their questioning period during college. In fact, this is an age group in which we lose many. The church's respond has been:

1. Try to allow in our church-sponsored institutions for honest, frank inquiry, as our "children" become adults and make the faith their own.

2. Provide church-sponsored clubs (ours is XA - Chi Alpha) for our students who attend 'secular universities.'

So...how are the BYU schools in this arena? It's a faith-promoting environment, but does it support those students who need to explore difficult questions?

And...is there an LDS club for university students outside the BYU system?

LDS-owned universities generally require students to take a religion class each semester. The student usually can choose which aspect of the gospel they wish to study.

The LDS church also conducts institute courses at many universities in the US, where the student can interact with teachers trained by the church. How extensive or intensive these are, I don't know, but they are in place.

There are fraternities and sororities aimed toward LDS students, but I don't know the names of them, or how widespread they are throughout the country.

The church also has a student support group, called LDSSA, or LDS Student Association, which operates on many campuses in the US.

I don't know much about these organizations other than their existence, but I believe the church has a pretty good support system for the students who wish to ask questions or wish to learn more about the church.

[MikeUpton]

Thanks to the OP for pointing this out. Sometimes it is a relief to me knowing there are others out there who are able to see the problem we have when we ask questions. I myself have faced this problem a lot recently. Although my testimony of the church was not particularly in question, there are things I did not understand, so naturally it was my desire to learn more about these points. It was important to understand these things so that I might know how to proceed with my life. To even ask about those points to many members would cause them to emit the same sort of behaviour you have spoken of, albeit without the "have you been reading anti?"

To a person who was really going through a very difficult time, and needed answers badly, I have to say, that they were indeed difficult questions, and I cannot blame others for not being able to answer them. However, the attitude I often ran into while asking the questions made my situation even worse. I feel I have something of an answer now to what I asked, but looking back, it would have been a lot easier had people been less willing to project and sling mud, rather than just do their best to humble themselves, and try to understand the situation. Anyway, I've moved on now. My testimony is intact. I thank you again for this post.

[Misshalfway]

LDS-owned universities generally require students to take a religion class each semester. The student usually can choose which aspect of the gospel they wish to study.

The LDS church also conducts institute courses at many universities in the US, where the student can interact with teachers trained by the church. How extensive or intensive these are, I don't know, but they are in place.

There are fraternities and sororities aimed toward LDS students, but I don't know the names of them, or how widespread they are throughout the country.

The church also has a student support group, called LDSSA, or LDS Student Association, which operates on many campuses in the US.

I don't know much about these organizations other than their existence, but I believe the church has a pretty good support system for the students who wish to ask questions or wish to learn more about the church.

I would just add to this wonderful descriptions, that the church has singles wards (i am sure you are familiar what wards are, PC :) ) that are specifically designed to help college aged church members. They worship together, and also teach and lead each other in those services and conduct lots of weekly fhe and other activities. They have firesides and parties and dances and service projects. All of these are designed to help students strengthen and maintain testimony while promoting an atmosphere of constant gospel study.

[Truegrits]

As we help another to learn, to seek, to grow, it also strengthens our own testimony. It lifts our spirit, being able to quide others, to help them find the answers they are searching for. Maybe I will not know the answers myself, but then that becomes an opportunity for ME to learn also.

I also think, though, that one cannot give another all the answers. Just like we, as parents, want our children to read and learn for themselves, so do we, as adults, need to do so. When you can know a thing for yourself, then it is yours... Not just something someone has told you.

I feel that we are all going through this thing called life together.

The kinder we are to each other, the happier and more rewarding our experience will be.

[MikeUpton]

I would just add to this wonderful descriptions, that the church has singles wards (i am sure you are familiar what wards are, PC :) ) that are specifically designed to help college aged church members. They worship together, and also teach and lead each other in those services and conduct lots of weekly fhe and other activities. They have firesides and parties and dances and service projects. All of these are designed to help students strengthen and maintain testimony while promoting an atmosphere of constant gospel study.

thats about what my bishop emailed to me a couple days ago. :) the church takes care of its members.

[Moksha]

So...how are the BYU schools in this arena? It's a faith-promoting environment, but does it support those students who need to explore difficult questions?

And...is there an LDS club for university students outside the BYU system?

I would only be guessing, but my guess is that BYU students would have to ask their questions clandestinely with trusted friends, lest they be reported to the religious authorities. Fortunately, they have access to boards like this to fire away their questions at will.

[WillowTheWhisp]

One of the things which really impressed me about LDS missionaries before I joined the church was that if I asked them a question they didn't know the answer to they did not fob me off. They were wiling to admit they did not know the answer but then they did try to find someone who did and who would be able to help me. I never came upon the same kind of stone walls I had met elsewhere.

[MaidservantX]

THIS type of attitude and belief and willingness to communicate and love and speak truthrfully is what I imagine for this LDS.net board (and life in general!). I am glad to see so many strong and compassionate people here who are willing to carry out their beliefs.

[mormonwoman]

I have had friends struggle as you have mentioned, Jenamarie, and I have heard similar complaints. I hope we can all as members have compassion, no matter where someone is on the path of their faith.

In addition to that, though, what I have seen, on the flip side of this, is that sometimes people really can and do think themselves out of the Church. And that is a concern that is valid and real, and might be what adds to people's knee-jerk (or maybe not so knee-jerk) reactions. And so some people may have genuine reasons for their hesitancy to respond as you would have hoped. This doesn't justify unkindness, or wrongful judging, or unthinking responses from fear alone. But realize that sometimes it really can be a genuine response as well. Even Pres. Eyring, in a recent New Era article (May, p. 6-9), said this, and it really struck me:

"The best way to answer concerns is always simple declaration of the truth, combined with warm invitation."

He doesn't try to say that we should be able to answer or address every concern. Sometimes a simple response really can be good and right. But clearly, he is talking about something done in love and with the Spirit.

So we should never be unkind, and we should always express concern and support for someone struggling in their faith. But we can also be patient with those who don't know quite how to respond, no? :) Remember that not everyone will know where to send someone who is really questioning, or may not have the need to study at that level. Not everyone will have had the same experience of needing to dig for specific answers, and may truly believe that such an approach can be damaging (having seen people lose their testimonies and end up in confusion because of 'research' I understand this genuine concern and think it's not always unwarranted...and such drifting doesn't even need to include anti stuff!).

And for some, when hard questions come, it really is as simple as praying, and letting some questions go and relying on the beautiful, basic, simple principles of the gospel and the restoration that end up being the foundation of a testimony.

In the end, the gospel really is simple. That isn't to say that we shouldn't listen or care when people have struggles, but in the end, there will always be some questions that can't be answered (if we could prove it all intellectually, what of faith?), and a testimony really does end up being about the simple basics...God lives, His Son is our Savior, the plan of salvation is real, God speaks through prophets, He spoke to Joseph Smith and restored authority, scripture, ordinances and the Church, and we can know these things are true through the power of the Holy Ghost. We don't have to have all the historical or doctrinal questions answered to know those foundational things. And I think this is sometimes what people mean when they say, "Just pray about it." They may not be trying to be dismissive, but simply expressing what they believe is the truly right approach...to really dig deeper roots of testimony rather than trying to uncover every rock of history or doctrine. Don't fault them for what really may be what works for them...just as you don't want to be faulted for your genuine questions.

Again, I realize that it's also important not to sweep others' concerns under the rug, and to be willing to listen, care, and support. But I guess I also empathize with those members who really do believe that one can work through the questions through simple means, or even with those who are afraid. If you have ever seen someone who IS trying to pull others down, or have seen someone think themselves out of the Church, it's something that IS concerning. So I think we can have compassion for those who are afraid of such things, even if they are incorrect about someone's motivations...not because an unkind response is justified, but because we each have our weaknesses and struggles that deserve patience and compassion as we each sort through and try to overcome those weaknesses and struggles.

BTW, I hope you have come to a place of peace in your journey, and that you can hold onto what you DO know. In all my exposure to the classic issues that tend to concern people, through trying to help friends who have engaged in a journey such as yours, I really do come back to the basics! It is those basics that end up grounding me and keeping me in a place of peace, in spite of questions that I have...that I think many people have at some point. I don't have answers for it all, but I do know this work is true, and that is enough. And in the end, I find that the more I focus on the basics, the more I learn that really strengthens that faith, and the less I feel the need to 'understand' some of the other stuff. What I know means that there is a lot I can let go.

[Misshalfway]

Thank you to the OP for your careful and powerful post. I feel so much the same way. I find myself now avoiding conversations that are contentious or demeaning -- conversations that I would otherwise enjoy.

There is no crime in asking questions. No sin in having concerns. Most of us have them at one time or another. And in this church, I think having concerns can be scary to admit. Not that I don't think there are answers and tremendous blessings that come from emerging from such tests of faith. I think it is more the interpersonal disconnects that come from so many "natural man" tendencies.

Having been thru a very recent struggle of faith myself, my heart has grown in compassion for others who struggle.....and also surprisingly for those faithful who don't understand or who struggle not to judge. More and more I realize how human we all are! And how we are all in our own individual and dynamic process thru this life. Satan I believe works on all of us. That we all have in common! :) Perhaps while one is being tempted to give into the doubt, another is being flattered into pride.

I suppose it all comes down to love. Love suffers long and is kind. Seeketh not her own! I know you all know those Bible and BofM verses.

I was also thinking of this one.... 1 Peter 4:8

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Perhaps we can all be patient and kind with one another as our struggles over self are exposed as we converse with one another.

To everyone who is questioning and to the rest who sometimes forget that it is ok to do so -- Peace.

[rena_goldmoon]

I have a general question. Often Christian young people go through their questioning period during college. In fact, this is an age group in which we lose many. ?

I was just in college not very long ago and found this to be true. What I was also able to exsperience was that it was a great time for searching for invetigaters as well and many come into the fold or come back durring that time. All I have to say Is what helps the most is having good friends who are willing and able to search and prey with you. we are told to seek out the answers for our questions. Part of growing in this life is understanding the gospel.

Also we had a strong Student LDS progrem at our college. Like I said friends helping friends. I dont know one of my friends who would "turn me into the authorities". Maybe suggest I talk to one that has more exspirence but that is all. Part of growing is lifting eachother.

[rena_goldmoon]

Im not sure their is one of us who does not struggle in some way or another. Otherwise we wouldnt be here. (In life) We are all here to ask and to grow. If you think you understand all your kidding yourself. Anyhow. I believe we all need a reminder to think before we speak and try to understand others as well as try to answer honestly without judging. I know if they are asking they usually arent attacking just searching. So thank you for the original post.

[MikeUpton]

The main thing I have learned from having questions about the church, is to realize that questions represent places where our knowledge is incomplete, and not a fault in the teaching we have questions about. I still don't have a perfect answer to my questions, but you know what? I know the church is true anyway, so it doesn't affect my knowledge of the truthfulness of the Gospel.

My knowledge of the truthfulness of the Gospel has not come from a carnal understanding of precepts or teachings. It comes from many many witnesses to my soul that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church. The witness of this truth has been given. I cannot deny that. If I am presented with questions in my life about any particular teaching, I must admit that regardless of my question, I already know the church is true. Even if there is any sort of question that comes up in my life, this knowledge gives me a certain course. I will remain forever in this church even if the question is not answered until the next life. It is me who lacks understanding, and not the church lacking the truth.

I struggle to do my best with the understandings I have. I can only hope that the Lord will see this and have mercy on me, as imperfect as I am. Truth shall forever remain the truth, whether we perceive it or not.

Edited June 20, 2008 by MikeUpton
formatting, additional point.

[Tough Grits]

Whether it is via internet forums or through our personal dealings with our brothers and sisters upon the earth, we sometimes do and think things that make perfect sense to us, never realizing that another may be confused about our mannerisms or actions.

When I am in an interesting discussion, I am usually learning just as much as I am trying to share. Usually, especially when asked a direct question about what my belief is, I will turn to the scriptures or the words of our leaders.

Why do I do this?

It is not because I lack an understanding or testimony for myself.

Rather, it is because an idea or discussion intrigued me enough to get my mental gears turning, and my own turning gears sent me in search of further light and knowledge on the matter.

From my perspective, I am doing something that I was taught to do since the elders first gave me the discussions 10 years ago...they taught me to ponder, search, and pray.

That is how I try to handle communication with others. I ponder the matter. I think about what I know, what I feel, and what I personally think about the matter. Then I go and find further information to either support my own beliefs, or I find information that teaches me what I may not have known or had gotten slightly mixed up.

I then pray upon the matter. I seek out confirmation from the Spirit if what I have read is true. Many times, I do not even have to pray, as the Spirit will be burning so strong within me as I read the scriptures or as I read what leaders have written and said on the matter that I will know instantly that the words are true.

For me, I do not feel that this shows a lack of personal knowledge or testimony.

For me, it is a learning process that helps ME to solidify what I already knew or thought to be true. Usually, once I find what I was looking for, I just end up quoting direct scripture or the leaders themselves.

Why do I sometimes do this instead or using my own thoughts and words?

"In the Bible we read this important declaration:

'In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established' (2 Corinthians 13:1). This assures God's children that divine doctrines are confirmed by more than one scriptural witness.

"The Bible and the Book of Mormon are both witnesses of Jesus Christ. They teach that He is the Son of God, that He lived an exemplary life, that He atoned for all mankind, that He died upon the cross and rose again as the resurrected Lord. They teach that He is the Savior of the world."

Topics: Savior, Bible, Book of Mormon

(Russell M. Nelson, "Scriptural Witnesses," Ensign, Nov. 2007, 43)

Just as the Bible and the Book of Mormon are two witnesses of truth, so too do I feel that my own words and thoughts expressed through quotes from scripture and/or words from our leaders display two witnesses of truth.

When I quote scripture or the words of our leaders, I am in essence stating that I believe what I found to be true for myself and I am using the precise words of scripture or of my leaders, rather than fumble with my own words.

But in order for me to even post that quote, I have to have found it true and in line with my own beliefs and testimony.

It should not be supposed that just because a quote is inserted instead of my own words, that I lack the testimony to state the matter for myself.

Rather, it should be supposed that I am using the words of scripture or of my leaders to act as a second witness to what I believe for myself.

I have been thinking about this for some time...and this thread has allowed me to explore exactly why I find it so important and necessary for me to use direct scripture and quotes from the leaders rather than just always relying on my words or thoughts alone.

This has helped me to understand why I do what I do, and maybe it will help others. Sometimes, we just don't really realize that we should be explaining why we do what we do. Because we do it, and have probably done it for so long, we don't even realize that others may not understand or know why we do it that particular way. Maybe we don't even realize that we are peculiar to others.

I guess I am just peculiar...HUH???? LOL LOL

Edited June 20, 2008 by Tough Grits