A Gentle Request

[Misshalfway]

Whether it is via internet forums or through our personal dealings with our brothers and sisters upon the earth, we sometimes do and think things that make perfect sense to us, never realizing that another may be confused about our mannerisms or actions.

So true. Such realizations can help us be more sensitive.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know much about these organizations other than their existence, but I believe the church has a pretty good support system for the students who wish to ask questions or wish to learn more about the church.

Thank you, John. I did not know of any these...sounds very spiritually healthy.

[prisonchaplain]

I would only be guessing, but my guess is that BYU students would have to ask their questions clandestinely with trusted friends, lest they be reported to the religious authorities. Fortunately, they have access to boards like this to fire away their questions at will.

If you are right, that does not sound so healthy. But I wonder...one of the best decisions I made was going to Whitworth College (Presbyterian). I arrived on campus with something of a conservative evangelical theological chip on my shoulder, ready to see how this liberal, dry "mainstream" Christian school was. I was pleasantly surprised by the depth of faith, the rigor of study and inquiry, and by the absolute openness to spiritual exploration and inquiry. They did not make me Presbyterian, but they did make me a much more intelligent and better Pentecostal.

[rameumptom]

What a wonderful heartfelt post (the OP). I have a general question. Often Christian young people go through their questioning period during college. In fact, this is an age group in which we lose many. The church's respond has been:

1. Try to allow in our church-sponsored institutions for honest, frank inquiry, as our "children" become adults and make the faith their own.

2. Provide church-sponsored clubs (ours is XA - Chi Alpha) for our students who attend 'secular universities.'

So...how are the BYU schools in this arena? It's a faith-promoting environment, but does it support those students who need to explore difficult questions?

And...is there an LDS club for university students outside the BYU system?

At most colleges, the LDS have an Institute program, where the students can receive college credit for religious classes. The Institute is also the center of activities for LDS students. They organize Family Home Evenings, activities (dances, trips to temple, fun events, etc), and often will have their own congregation.

For example, In Indianapolis, we have a large student population (IU/Perdue, Ivy Tech, IUPUI, etc). We have a single adult branch/congregation, as well as many activities for them together. The Institute director is a good friend of mine, and my bishop. he works for the Church, ensuring the quality of the program for the college students, as well as for our high school seminary program. The group is very cohesive and reach out to all our young adults, both in college and already working.

[Aphrodite]

Jena a post like this has been needed for some time. I have been questioning the church for some 3 years now. Initially I was shocked at the backlash I recieved. I too have been accused of reading anti-mormon literature, causing trouble and 'just looking for an argument'. I was so upset and surprised at this at first, fully expecting love and support. Sadly I have learnt this is not to be. In a way tho, these people, inclusind some on this board, have done me a favour as I now know how most mormons really think and feel about people going off the iron rod of mormonism. Im now very wary of members unfortunately, as there may be a self righteous, judgemental person underneath the charm offensive, just waiting for the oppurtunity to bite.

[StrawberryFields]

This is what is on my profile...

ABOUT ME

I like Happy People!

I can't stand a "Self-Righteous-Mormon" or people who are negative and looking to catch people doing wrong. Tolerance is a Virtue!

Did I say I like Happy People?

I live in Utah and I have had my share of "Self-Righteous-Mormons". I don't think that people who put down others for not being as good as them or who judge others because they think they are better in one area of the gospel than another are living a Christ Like Life at all. We have been taught over and over to be loving and kind yet so many times we miss the mark completely and for the wrong reasons. Maybe it's because of my upbringing and having parents who were less active and judged for that that I strive to help those who really need help. We don't get ahead by stepping on one another, we get ahead with the help of everyone.

Hugs, SF

[rameumptom]

I think that this issue is not just a Mormon thing. I am sure there are many traditional Christians that have a very hard time accepting their child becoming a Mormon. In fact, I've seen some strong reactions by some, including disowning the child.

So, this trend towards a bit of harshness is not a Mormon thing, it is a human thing.

I find that it often deals with how we ask questions. If we ask an honest question, and then show disdain or harsh rejection of the answer we receive from someone, just how do we expect to have them respond? Suddenly, we have turned from being an honest seeker of information, to someone who is insisting on answers that will satisfy.

We can't always get both. First off, our bishops and other leaders are not necessarily scholars. Few of them went through a theological seminary. Few of them are trained as teachers, psychologists, or marriage therapists. Yet, when a bishop doesn't fully assist a person in the way that person expects to be helped, there is often a backlash.

Perhaps the people you are asking the questions to, are the wrong people to ask? Or perhaps there isn't an answer that will satisfy you.

In another thread, one individual that is disaffected with the Church demanded us LDS believers to defend the Church against his criticisms without using FAIR or FARMS data! Here was a person that was fulfilling a self-defeating behavior and prophecy. He had already come to his conclusion, and had delineated the answers he would accept, so as to prevent any potential answer coming from an LDS scholar. Sometimes, we insist on a specific answer, even when it isn't one that others can give us; either because they do not have the knowledge, or they do not believe it is the correct answer. It isn't always satisfying to ask for an answer, and then not hear an answer, or not hear the answer we wish to hear.

So, in such an instance, sincerity and open-mindedness are necessary to seek answers. Patience is needed to ensure we do not give up when seeking an answer that is elusive. And charity is needed to thank those who attempt to answer us, but (at least in our view) fail miserably.

Some things we must keep to ourselves, because the world/Church are not ready for the question, or we are not ready for the answers. There are many things I believe that are not Church doctrine, but are hinted at by scripture. Yet, I will not teach those things, and I'm cautious as to whom I share them.

[StrawberryFields]

I think that in our church we are taught to become "perfect" and some people have the belief that they are!!

I would like to think that we will be judged by the same measuring stick we judged others with. I want mine to have lots of room for errors. :)

[Moksha]

I arrived on campus with something of a conservative evangelical theological chip on my shoulder, ready to see how this liberal, dry "mainstream" Christian school was. I was pleasantly surprised by the depth of faith, the rigor of study and inquiry, and by the absolute openness to spiritual exploration and inquiry. They did not make me Presbyterian, but they did make me a much more intelligent and better Pentecostal.

Hence the term Liberal Education. Free inquiry into the various realms of knowledge plus the ability to examine beliefs without fear of reprisal is a great thing, is it not?

[Traveler]

It is the nature of the internet that if something enlightening and intelligent is posted for various readers to read - readers will read and nod their head in agreement. If on the other hand something really stupid and foolish is posted it is the nature of internet readers to read that and respond over and over and over again.

So in you want to be noticed and get a lot of response - post something stupid and foolish - almost everyone will know who you are. It is like a misbehaving child that does so just to get the parents attention. Many would rather have a negative response than no response.

We tend to feed the beast and ignore the beauty when it comes to responses.

The Traveler

[StrawberryFields]

It is the nature of the internet that if something enlightening and intelligent is posted for various readers to read - readers will read and nod their head in agreement. If on the other hand something really stupid and foolish is posted it is the nature of internet readers to read that and respond over and over and over again.

So in you want to be noticed and get a lot of response - post something stupid and foolish - almost everyone will know who you are. It is like a misbehaving child that does so just to get the parents attention. Many would rather have a negative response than no response.

We tend to feed the beast and ignore the beauty when it comes to responses.

The Traveler

Yes I think I will reply to this lol!!!

[Flyonthewall]

Before I started posting on internet boards, I thought I knew the gospel pretty good. After lurking on the apologetics board, I came to understand that I was just at the tip of the iceberg(still am).

There have been times throughout my life where I go through some hard times and the first thing I want to do is question my faith, and blame God. This causes me to have doubts and questions about the church and what I have been taught. I can use this to dismantle my faith, or to temper it.

I think the majority of LDS go through this, in some form or another, sometime(s) during their life.

I do agree with you that the reaction to these times will vary, but they should all be on the help and support side of things and not the rebuking side.

[Islander]

Hence the term Liberal Education. Free inquiry into the various realms of knowledge plus the ability to examine beliefs without fear of reprisal is a great thing, is it not?

Hummm, not really. It means, more or less that the academic pursue is not tied to a certain academic subjects, such as philosophy, history, literature, music, art, and other so-called "humanities". It is sort of go to college for 4 years, take whatever class you want and accumulate units until...ooops!!..got enough for a degree.

[WANDERER]

I have read anti-Mormon literature. The natural response was to find out how members respond to their beliefs, critisms and to just read about everyday life sort of blogs that show why people are LDS and how it all fits together for them. I guess there is also the responsibility of finding an opposite perspective to balance things out a little. LOL at the idea of anti literature directing me to study LDS viewpoints....if only they knew. I guess in some ways the milk before meat idea means that novel approaches are needed if you don't fit that model. Yes it does mean that your going to go through a bit of a tempering process...but that is pretty much what active, rather than passive, faith involves.

[PapilioMemnon]

To ask is something I encourage people to do; I'm not afraid of answering people, and when they ask things, even if they have been born in the faith.

My son, oldest, is one of them; he has asked many things, has told me he doesn't believe all things, and even though I get sometimes concerned with his ideas, and research, I encourage him to find for himself. WE talk about different faiths and their beliefs, and I state them as I know them (If I don't, I go to a website where I can find, and share with him).

I talk and teach him what I can, the basic, in simple terms, and encourage him to seek the answers (he has to do something!), read the scriptures, attend General Conference, etc. I allow him to express his own thoughts and ideas even, or should I say, especially if they differ from mine. His belief, or lack of it, has been greatly influenced by the other parent who has left the church a long time ago (He never really wanted to be there), who has been throwing at him (My son) as many negative thoughs, comments, ideas, and lies about the church as he can, and trying to force him to feel the same way.

Well, he did... for a time. Now, he even goes to the temple with me, even if he has nothing to do there (He does not have the priesthood yet).

Some results: A few things he didn't believe before, he's gained more understanding. I see growing in understanding.

We are all in different levels... and we need to be patient with others as they learn just as much as we want them to be with us. Strengths & weaknesses are different for each person.

I know the Lord's commitment to protect our agency, and have come to understand that I need to pass that along. His words are to be taught with love and patience; we need to be patient as others find for themselves. This can't be rushed, or hushed.

I do what I can, and leave the rest to the Lord; I have faith, and that keeps me from hijacking my son's agency, and forcing (If there's such thing) him to believe in what I do. I think there are some people that are not sure of what they believe in the church, and fear questions because they are not even sure themselves. Everyone must come to know for themselves (Question in faith & pray about it), and not keep borrowing light for the rest of their lives.

I know that once he (my son) finds it, it's his to keep! No one will be able to take that away!

[MikeUpton]

I think this video provides a good analogy of our "helpfulness" sometimes.

YouTube - I've gotta get out of here!!

[MikeUpton]

this video is not an exact demonstration, but its not too bad i think.

[Moksha]

It means, more or less that the academic pursue is not tied to a certain academic subjects, such as philosophy, history, literature, music, art, and other so-called "humanities".

What you paraphrased about Liberal Education, is from an essay by Mortimer Adler, the subsequent sentence gives more meaning as well.

"Liberal education is not tied to certain academic subjects, such as philosophy, history, literature, music, art, and other so-called "humanities." In the liberal-arts tradition, scientific disciplines, such as mathematics and physics, are considered equally liberal, that is, equally able to develop the powers of the mind."

[justamere10]

It's easy enough I think for members who are super busy to perhaps subconsciously make the Church all-encompassing. We begin to fail to differentiate between what is genuinely "Gospel" and what is the ordinary problems that come with life in the 21st century.

Should things consistently go bad for us for a period of time, as they inevitably do, we might begin to question our LDS beliefs when in actuality the problem may have nothing at all to do with that, it could be experienced by anyone else regardless of religious affiliation or none at all.

We may think that God owes us because we've been so diligent participating in Church programs. Or we may think our faith is bulletproof but then along comes something we've never thought much of before and it clicks with some other thing, and we're off to do research, clinging perhaps to a fast vanishing hope in those hours of doubt and anxiety that our whole reason for being doesn't suddenly come crashing down after all those years of discipline and self sacrifice...

I think we all know those moments, times of darkness and doubt. Ultimately there MUST be an element of faith in this mortal period of our existence. That's how it was designed to be so we could be tried and tested. But ultimately it's our own personal relationship with God that is going to determine whether we pass or fail this all-important second estate.

I just started reading a biography of David O. McKay, the man who was the Prophet when I was converted to the LDS faith. Because of some spiritual experiences I had the first time I went to a temple, I have always felt particularly close to President McKay. But after reading only a few pages in his biography I realized that I didn't really know the man. I realized that I've been way too dogmatic in my online relationships, that I've made the Church too all-encompassing, and that he didn't.

For example, I think for many years that I've had the attitude that the theory of evolution was a "Gospel" matter. On occasion I've written in opposition to it. But already, reading just a bit into his biography, President McKay has taught me that evolution, like many many other things, is not something the Lord has revealed anything about, that it is not a Gospel matter at all!

I think sometimes those dark moments come because we've pulled too much into the label "Gospel", things that don't properly belong there, things the Lord has revealed nothing about. What's most important I think is that we can always turn inside ourselves and find there a loving FRIEND ever patiently waiting, sometimes needing to knock to get our attention back from those all encompassing things that keep us too busy for Him.

Salvation is an individual process. Regardless of the programs, regardless of contradictions, regardless of fears and anxieties, we must each individually find HIM inside ourselves.

I've been accused on this board of being condescending, and maybe I am, and maybe it doesn't matter, but for all it may be worth if anything at all, my humble counsel to you my sister Jena is "don't sweat the small stuff." Instead of heading to books and boards and googles, head instead to your closet, and renew there your personal acquaintance with God...

I know He lives and Jesus is the Christ. I rejoice in that knowing. What could be more important than that for anyone?

[Tough Grits]

Please please please be as loving as you can towards those who have difficult questions about the church. If people in the church don't love them hard and work to help them find answers, even if it's just offering to pray for them during their search that they'll be able to find them, then there are plenty of people in other Christian denominations who will give them the love they're craving, and provide them with "answers" to their difficult questions. If people within the church are so unwilling to give answers, where else does the questioner have to go?

I wanted to go back to the original post for a moment.

This is truly a deeper matter than it may appear to be from the surface.

There are always people (in general, not necessary LDS or even religious) who will resent or chuckle that others even have a question to begin with. There are always those rare gems *sarcasm* who think it is dumb for anybody to ever ask a question about anything...period.

Even in my college classes, there the "those" kind who snicker when one of the other students raise their hand for further clarification.

I guess that is life.

But with religion, maybe even more specifically in regards to other faiths interacting with those of the LDS faith, there are so many out there who are not sincere in their questions or their interest. But I also know that the door swings both ways. There are also LDS who think nobody should ever have an original thought, question, or idea with anything related to the scriptures, words from our prophets, or with the gospel in general.

Did you know that Captain Moroni and Moroni were two different men in the Book of Mormon?

See, I did not know this until last month when we were talking about Captain Moroni. Suddenly the thought just occurred to me...was Captain Moroni the same as the angel Moroni?

So, I raised my hand in Sunday School and asked the teacher if they were the same person. Now, I was not embarrassed. I felt prompted to ask. As I was asking my question, I noticed a few other heads nod...as if to say that they were the same person.

Luckily, the teacher clarified otherwise. Captain Moroni was the leader of the Nephite armies (see Alma 43:16 in the Book of Mormon, about 74 B.C.). The other Moroni was the son of Mormon (see Mormon 6:6; about A.D. 385).

Did you note the difference in the dates? There was about 300 years difference between the two Moroni's.

There was more than a few confused looks in the class when the teacher brought this fact out. Apparently, my question had been a valid one, and I was not the only one confused about the matter!

I have read the Book of Mormon several times. I have studied it collectively, and merely by verse or topic. But for some reason it had never occurred to me that I had read about two different Moroni's.

Apparently it had never occurred to some of the other members of the class, who by the way, have been members all their lives.

Why is it important to know that the Moroni's were two separate individuals separated by hundreds of years? Do you know which one appeared to Joseph Smith?

Introduction page of the Book of Mormon, after the Title Page:

After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.

Why do I mention this?

Sometimes, it truly does go beyond asking the Lord in prayer. Though that is always wise advice, we have to be mindful of the promptings of the Spirit as well.

Apparently, that prompting of the Spirit that I received that Sunday was not merely for me...but for the other members who were confused too.

So, I truly do advocate pondering a matter, searching out the answer for yourself, and then praying upon the matter for a witness of the Spirit.

However, I also advocate following a prompting from the Spirit. And sometimes that may lead somebody to ask a question in Sunday School, Relief Society, Priesthood, on LDS.org, or even here at LDS.net.

Maybe in having your own question answered, another is also receiving the answer as well.

By the way, that truly is the reason why Sunday School and Relief Society/Priesthood is to be taught in such a manner that class participation is vital in bringing out the meat of the lesson. Yes, the teacher is called and set apart to lead and direct the class to coincide with the lesson material, but it is also up to the members who sustained that teacher, to offer testimony, comment, and questions so that all may learn and be edified.

We should never be ashamed to ask sincere testimony building questions, but we should also never be afraid to give heartfelt testimony and comments in class as prompted by the Spirit. We can never be quite sure if our questions and/or comments are to build our own testimony, or if they are needed in building and adding to another's testimony.

Just thought I would share. I think the greatest call that anybody could ever have in life, or in this Church, is the call to be a teacher. I also believe that one cannot be a teacher, without also being a student. As we all learn, especially when we are teaching!

~TG

[Hemidakota]

Invoking the Spirit can be done by the right people when teaching.

[mommamarty]

WOW, So many of the things that you brought up are exactly how I have felt. When I lived in an area that had small wards and branches it seem like everyone is working to help build each other up, and strengthen testimonies working together to find the answers that people need. Now I live in an area with lots of LDS members and large wards, and if you are struggling they don't want to know it. They don't want to get personal, help, or even acknowledge that you might have doubts or questions. I certainlly glad to know that you found the answers you were seeking, and I hope that we can all be helpful to those in need here.

Marty

[Hemidakota]

Now that is very interesting....Oh! Wlecome to the forum.

[MrNirom]

It needs to stop. IT IS 100% POSSIBLE TO HAVE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CHURCH AND CHURCH HISTORY WITHOUT READING ONE WORD OF ANTI-LITERATURE!

Short story long. LOL My life: 2 marriages.. 2 divorces.. left the church. (couldn't endure to the end) 20 years later.. decided to reactivate myself due to a new relationship and the fact I quit smoking (That is a story in and of itself).

She is taking the missionary discussions. In 20 years.. I found out a lot has changed. On line scriptures that talk. WOW. I never lost my testimony... never even questioned it.. until.. someone sent me a YouTube video.

I watched the video.. and then thought.. I wonder if the church has something on here. Did a search: Mormon 1st thing that came up: Cartoon banned by the Mormon church. Hmmm why would they ban a cartoon? I watched it. Oh boy.. I thought.. well this is crap.

I make my little comment in comment section.. this is crap. Then it happened. The professional anti's came out of the woodwork. Their questions and comments were 500 characters in length. And it was like.. post.. post.. post. I couldn't even start to type a response.. and there would be a new one. What I read was shocking! This couldn't be true. But there was so much of it. 15, 20 25 questions.. all different.. all about something someone said.. JoD HC Ensign, etc were all being quoted. I was in overload!

I really started questioning my faith. I had never heard of this stuff before. How could I have been so wrong? I really got scared. What was I going to do now? It took me a day to calm down. I couldn't even tell my girl friend my feelings as she was just starting to be interested in the church. I didn't want to ruin it for her especially since I didn't have any answers. Hey.. I didn't ask for this.. I wasn't searching any Anti Mormon sites. But it all got put in my lap real quick. Everything from The God Makers to Sandra Tanner to many ex Mormons all telling me how I had been duped.

I cried. I mean.. I sobbed because I could not believe all this. "Thank Goodness I did not waste the last 20 years of my life believing in a false church", I was thinking.

The next day. I just couldn't swallow defeat. There was something wrong here. There just had to be. I could feel it. I prayed for a way to find the truth. I was on my knees begging for an answer. No special feeling came.. no burning chest.. no calmness over the body.. nothing. I went back to my computer.. went to the LDS website and somehow I found FAIRS. WOW. Here was almost every answer to the questions I was being asked by these Anti's. It was amazing. The Lord did answer my prayer. And as I read the answers.. I now realized... even looking back.. how their questions were designed specifically to hook you. My eyes were opened and I could now see what they were doing. Where before I thought they were trying to help me... but now.. I could really see what they were doing. I then read almost everything I could read about in FAIRS and the other Mormon sites. Now I feel like a soldier armed to teeth. My weapon is knowledge. Now I can tell the difference between someone out to destroy.. or out to learn. And there is nothing anyone can say now.. that would shake my faith. (Lord.. please don't test me)

But this is what I can say. To talk about this stuff.. the truth.. really shakes up some people. They don't like it. 34 wives? Joseph had 34 wives? one was 14? and some were still married? Who wants to talk about that? Most don't understand it. I do. It does not shake my faith now. I understand the background on it. 34 wives is the surface part of it. If you didn't know about it.. or didn't know the details.. it could throw you for a loop. But when you learn the history.. the background.. the details.. it all makes sense. It is not what it seemed to be. It is rational.. it is explainable. But it is still uncomfortable. And if someone doesn't know the answer.. they don't want to hear the question. And I think for a lot of Mormons.. they are afraid to say.. I don't know the answer to that question. Because if they did say that.. they too would have to research the answer.:)

[rameumptom]

MrNirom,

Thanks for your testimony. The same reasons they give to not believe in Joseph Smith could be used against the bible. Moses married his niece! Moses and Joshua wiped out entire cities full of innocent women and children. Abraham tried to kill his own son (and of course, God would NEVER command someone to do something THAT hideous). Jesus cursed a fig tree to death, simply because it didn't bear fruit - a little harsh, wouldn't you say?

It is often in the background info, as you pointed out, that we find the truth and reasoning. Only because much of the criticism hits the surface and looks pretty harsh, does it seem to have credence.

I've been doing apologetics for almost 2 decades now online. I've worked with FAIR a lot in the past, and worked on the MADB (formerly FAIR boards) for years.

I'm glad you didn't do a knee jerk reaction as most of the virulent antis have done, but sought out the information and guidance of the Lord. FAIR has some good stuff, well researched.