Pre-life - Standing on the fence?

[Maya]

I bewlieve many were more to this than others. Some may even have decided at the last moment and maybe even doubtet a bit.

If we all were SOOO much into this then why are there so many that do not even want to listen?

[Hemidakota]

As members of the Church, we are engaged in a mighty conflict. We are at war. We have enlisted in the cause of Christ to fight against Lucifer and all that is lustful and carnal and evil in the world. We have sworn to fight alongside our friends and against our enemies, and we must not be confused in distinguishing friends from foes. As another of our ancient fellow apostles wrote: “Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4.)

The great war that rages on every side and which unfortunately is resulting in many casualties, some fatal, is no new thing. There was war even in heaven, when the forces of evil sought to destroy the agency of man, and when Lucifer sought to lead us away from the path of progression and advancement established by an all-wise Father.

That war is continuing on earth, and the devil is still wroth with the Church and goes forth “to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Rev. 12:17.)

And it is now as it has always been. The Saints can only overcome him and his forces “by the blood of the Lamb, … by the word of their testimony,” and if they love “not their lives unto the death.” (Rev. 12:11.)

Now there neither are nor can be any neutrals in this war. Every member of the Church is on one side or the other. - Bruce R. McConkie Ensign 1974

-a-train

This is where I have to disagree with Elder McConkie. [Will not be the first thing I had disagreed over. :)] However, I still love that man as a great brother.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

I bewlieve many were more to this than others. Some may even have decided at the last moment and maybe even doubtet a bit.

If we all were SOOO much into this then why are there so many that do not even want to listen?

The last conversion of those who were not totally devoted to our Master, had to choose between Lucifer or mortality. This doesn't mean they will eventually bring forth the same character as it was in the pre-mortal life.

[HoosierGuy]

That article by Elder McConkie is powerful. Wow. I printed out two copies, one to carry in my car and one to carry around with my scriptures.

[KristofferUmfrey]

I agree there were no fence sitters, just folks who didn't help out much.

[Nappaljarri]

I don't think there were fence sitters. Really. I believe in a God of leadership and he would have said... you all have your agency... now make your decision.... My side, or Lucifer's side. There may have been some with quarms about decisions to be made, but they had to choose then, and they have to choose again now.

[Guest DeborahC]

Well, I think we were on one side or the other, no fence sitters.

I also think that once we're here, the veil passes over us, and we forget that we were on the Lord's side.

If that were not the case, there wouldn't be any reason to be here on earth at all.

But it's part of the plan that we must choose again, here on this plane of existence, right?

[Nappaljarri]

Well, I think we were on one side or the other, no fence sitters.

I also think that once we're here, the veil passes over us, and we forget that we were on the Lord's side.

If that were not the case, there wouldn't be any reason to be here on earth at all.

But it's part of the plan that we must choose again, here on this plane of existence, right?

THE

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 93

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, May 6, 1833. HC 1: 343–346.

1–5, All who are faithful shall see the Lord; 6–18, John bore record that the Son of God went from grace to grace until he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; 19–20, Faithful men, going from grace to grace, shall also receive of his fulness; 21–22, Those who are begotten through Christ are the Church of the Firstborn; 23–28, Christ received a fulness of all truth, and man by obedience may do likewise; 29–32, Man was in the beginning with God; 33–35, The elements are eternal, and man may receive a fulness of joy in the resurrection; 36–37, The glory of God is intelligence; 38–40, Children are innocent before God because of the redemption of Christ; 41–53, The leading brethren are commanded to set their families in order.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who aforsaketh his bsins and cometh unto me, and ccalleth on my name, and dobeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall esee my fface and gknow that I am;

2 And that I am the true alight that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

3 And that I am ain the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father abecause he bgave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made cflesh my dtabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the aworks of him were plainly manifest.

6 And aJohn saw and bore record of the fulness of my bglory, and the fulness of cJohn’s record is hereafter to be revealed.

7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the abeginning, before the world was;

8 Therefore, in the beginning the aWord was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

9 The alight and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were amade by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, abear record that I beheld his bglory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the afulness at the first, but received bgrace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from agrace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the aSon of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, aJohn, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my bbeloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received aall bpower, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the afulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and aknow what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my acommandments you shall receive of his bfulness, and be cglorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive dgrace for grace.

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the abeginning with the Father, and am the bFirstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are apartakers of the bglory of the same, and are the cchurch of the Firstborn.

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is aSpirit, even the Spirit of truth;

24 And atruth is bknowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is amore or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a bliar from the beginning.

26 The Spirit of atruth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He breceived a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

27 And no man receiveth a afulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that akeepeth his commandments receiveth btruth and clight, until he is glorified in truth and dknoweth all things.

29 Man was also in the abeginning with God. bIntelligence, or the clight of dtruth, was not ecreated or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that asphere in which God has placed it, to bact for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the aagency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is bplainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.

33 For man is aspirit. The elements are beternal, and cspirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when aseparated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The aelements are the btabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even ctemples; and whatsoever temple is ddefiled, God shall destroy that temple.

36 The aglory of God is bintelligence, or, in other words, clight and truth.

37 Light and truth forsake that aevil one.

38 Every aspirit of man was binnocent in the beginning; and God having credeemed man from the dfall, men became again, in their infant state, einnocent before God.

39 And that awicked one cometh and btaketh away light and truth, through cdisobedience, from the children of men, and because of the dtradition of their fathers.

40 But I have commanded you to bring up your achildren in blight and truth.

Yes agreed about being overshadowed by evil on this earth (read verse 39-40)... Once again... I love this section.. It continues.... but I didn't want my post to go too long.

[bmy-]

Verse 40 made me laugh a bit..

I have commanded you to raise your children in blight and truth. [the verses are split into a,b,c..so on.. it's just a typo I ran with]

Just pointing that out.. it's good for a chuckle. I'll continue to do what I do best.. fence sit and choose the winning side. As long as it helps me progress in the most efficient manner possible.

[Hemidakota]

I agree there were no fence sitters, just folks who didn't help out much.

Hmm...Symantec’s of wording. It is ok to disagree with GAs as it with people on this forum.

[Hemidakota]

I don't think there were fence sitters. Really. I believe in a God of leadership and he would have said... you all have your agency... now make your decision.... My side, or Lucifer's side. There may have been some with quarms about decisions to be made, but they had to choose then, and they have to choose again now.

Guys, look at your own posting....you are still stating the fact there were “FENCE SITTINGS”. As stated already, for those who were undecided or fence sitters, in order to come to mortality or be thrusted out of GOD’s presence, they had to make a choice but that still didn't mean they were total devoted to the Savior. It just an acknowledgment. He is the Savior at this about it. It goes also, they have a choice here to follow the Savior in this life but the personality does come and will surface in this life in not choosing to do so. Look around you….that is a lot of souls may not inherit the Celestial Glory in the end. Now, this is a sadden day to think about that….

[Hemidakota]

Verse 40 made me laugh a bit..

I have commanded you to raise your children in blight and truth. [the verses are split into a,b,c..so on.. it's just a typo I ran with]

Just pointing that out.. it's good for a chuckle. I'll continue to do what I do best.. fence sit and choose the winning side. As long as it helps me progress in the most efficient manner possible.

No typo but a reference link. ACHILDREN...the A is a reference web link.

[Maedoc]

Guys, look at your own posting....you are still stating the fact there were “FENCE SITTINGS”. As stated already, for those who were undecided or fence sitters, in order to come to mortality or be thrusted out of GOD’s presence, they had to make a choice but that still didn't mean they were total devoted to the Savior. It just an acknowledgment. He is the Savior at this about it. It goes also, they have a choice here to follow the Savior in this life but the personality does come and will surface in this life in not choosing to do so. Look around you….that is a lot of souls may not inherit the Celestial Glory in the end. Now, this is a sadden day to think about that….

You see, this is where I think the disagreement arises. From what I've read in your posts, you seem to believe someone who is not totally devoted can be considered a fence sitter, even after making a choice. I would say that once a choice is made, no matter the level of devotion, the person is removed from fence sitter status. In my mind, the fence sitter is neutral, and on either side is a spectrum ranging from barely devoted to completely devoted.

I would even go so far as to say it is impossible for anyone to ever be a "fence sitter." Matthew 12:30 tells us "He that is not with me is against me..." Even in not making a choice, you have still made a choice. It is the Lord's side with whatever degree of devotion, or satan's.

[Guest DeborahC]

Honestly, though, the bottom line is about what we do NOW.

The past cannot be changed, whatever its meaning was... it no longer exists.

What is important is NOW.

And right now, unfortunately, I consider myself a fence sitter!

[Heavenguard]

People who sit on the fence in this life aren't sure if God (or a god) exists, or they believe that there is a God, but he's so far removed that it's not something that matters to them. If there is a pre-existence in which we were conscious and aware, then you couldn't possibly not believe that God doesn't exist, or that he's someone/something that's far removed from you. You'd either have to be with God or not.

What HoosierGuy said in his first post got me thinking a little, though:

I know those of use with bodies here on earth stood on the side of Heavenly Father and Jesus in the pre-life. I know if we would have stood with Lucifer we would be here with no body but only an evil spirit.

That much makes sense, thus far. But to think about what it means... those that rebelled against God don't have a chance to live this mortal life, fine. But those who were with God get to live this mortal life and are then given another (very great, more probably than not) chance to run against him. It seems like the good guys get two chances to be good, or once to be good and once to be bad, but the bad guys only get one chance to be bad. It's ... a very strange thought.

[MrNirom]

If God has said that there must be opposition in all things.. how could that be without someone like Satan?

He must have some kind of a plan for him that maybe we don't fully understand?

[HiJolly]

He must have some kind of a plan for him that maybe we don't fully understand?

I'd bet on that one.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

You see, this is where I think the disagreement arises. From what I've read in your posts, you seem to believe someone who is not totally devoted can be considered a fence sitter, even after making a choice. I would say that once a choice is made, no matter the level of devotion, the person is removed from fence sitter status. In my mind, the fence sitter is neutral, and on either side is a spectrum ranging from barely devoted to completely devoted.

I would even go so far as to say it is impossible for anyone to ever be a "fence sitter." Matthew 12:30 tells us "He that is not with me is against me..." Even in not making a choice, you have still made a choice. It is the Lord's side with whatever degree of devotion, or satan's.

Hmm...this is where I would say ASK GOD for youself. Perhaps a visitation of what was prior to our exit for here would be a neat trip?

Look, I cannot convince but say what I honestly believe. I am a literalist and at times, it must ache our FATHER's heart in some matters. This is a given. We believe what we are given until it is replaced those falsity or fables.

I will also add, before our departure from the gates of spirit world, we had those who do object to our presence then and in this mortality, still will not like us now. Given point? Look at Christ mortal life...and then look at Joseph Smith mortal life.

Last, what was the character of Cain then and now?

[Hemidakota]

If God has said that there must be opposition in all things.. how could that be without someone like Satan?

He must have some kind of a plan for him that maybe we don't fully understand?

I remember someone asked that question to Hugh [Nibley] about Lucifer. He remarked, something of the order, he was meant to be defective from the beginning. Meaning, he still had the choice to choose the right but knowing his character was already flawed, he would play that role.

[mikbone]

8 hours ago, Jeff Craig said:

I have had the same line of thought of late; in that I have wondered if there were fence-sitters who literally might have made it into mortality by "the skin of their teeth".

Welcome to the forum.

yeah, the term fence-sitters is frowned upon due to its prior association with racist commentary.

But then you have…

Moses 5:24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Wherein God is talking to Cain and states that He knew he was rotten in the pre-mortal existence.

It seems that Cain was more of a double-agent that somehow managed to get a passport and visa to Earth despite his true intentions.

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Wherein God is talking to Cain and states that He knew he was rotten in the pre-mortal existence.

How do you get that out of the text?  That's not how I read it.  The "for thou was also before the world." isn't saying, "You were Perdition before the world."  It's saying "You existed before the world - in the pre-mortal realms."  Because Cain, like all of us, is an eternal being, his loss is a tragedy.

Bruce R. McConkie may have interpreted it the way you do, though that portion of his talk was not delivered in General Conference (watch the video, he skips that and the following two paragraphs).  I couldn't find anyone else who interpreted it this way.  Anyway, I'm not seeing it.

Meanwhile, read this thread - holy rampant unsupported speculation, Batman!

[mikbone]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

How do you get that out of the text? 

Reading comprehension I guess.

Id rather be called rotten than perdition.

To each his own.

Edited January 9 by mikbone

[zil2]

1 minute ago, mikbone said:

Reading comprehension I guess.

Id rather be called rotten than perdition.

To each his own.

He's called perdition, yes.  The phrase after the semi-colon could be interpreted either way, but the semi-colon separates it a bit too much...  You'd think if that were the interpretation, others would have said something.  Further, I don't believe anyone was sent here to fail.  Your interpretation seems to suggest Cain was sent here to fail.

[mikbone]

51 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Further, I don't believe anyone was sent here to fail.  Your interpretation seems to suggest Cain was sent here to fail.

Depends on who sent him.  And your interpretation of failure.

Cain came to Earth with a purpose. 

Korihor had a plan as well.

 

So is everyone that dosen’t make it to the Celestial Kingdom a failure from your perspective?

Edited January 9 by mikbone

[askandanswer]

I can envisage a scenario where mortality was the default outcome for all who did not choose Lucifer. Perhaps an active choice for God was not needed for an opportunity in mortality, maybe the only requirement was to not choose Lucifer. This approach would be consistent with a merciful and loving God who wanted the best for His children, and might not violate the laws of justice. 

I've sometimes thought that if there were fence sitters back then, they might be those in mortality who live in a time and place and regime where organised religion is not allowed. They didn't choose "religion" back then so they don't have it now. Purely speculative.