Oh for crying out loud, take your kid out of the chapel.

[NeuroTypical]

If you are too lazy to parent your child, then you don't need to have kids. It's really a simple concept.

These kids act this way every single week. I know their parents and there isn't any valid excuse for the behavior of their kids. Their parents aren't dying, they aren't ADHD or have any other disorder. They are just the product of lazy parenting.

I hear a harsh judgement. Sometimes harsh judgements are called for. Here's a great Ensign article from Dallin H. Oaks a few years back - it might help you figure out whether your judgement is righteous or not.

Aug 1999 Ensign - “Judge Not” and Judging

Righteous Intermediate Judgment

The most fundamental principle is contained in the Savior’s commandment that we “judge not unrighteously, … but judge righteous judgment”. Let us consider some principles or ingredients that lead to a “righteous judgment.”

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire.

...

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest.

...

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. In an essay titled “Sitting in the Seat of Judgment,” the great essayist William George Jordan reminded us that character cannot be judged as dress goods—by viewing a sample yard to represent a whole bolt of cloth (see The Crown of Individuality [1909], 101–5).

How many are you sure of there, Rachel?

LM

[LolaBella]

Rachelle, I COMPLETELY AGREE with you. I have two girls, 2 and 3 and parents who do not discipline their children are so frustrating. I do what has been said already-If they act up they get taken out with no toys, no eye contact from me, no talking nothing-I will tell them what I expect-Quietness or the foyer, and once they are prepared to behave, back inside. Its just basic common sense.

Loudmouth-I really have to disagree with you. I hardly think that expecting a parent to keep their kids under control is exersising 'unrighteous judgement'!!! For crying out loud!! All Rachelle, I, and most people with half a brain in their heads want is for parents to take their kids out when they are noisy. It doesn't matter how you were brought up either, its BASIC COMMON SENSE.

DH was teaching one time and this kid was screaming away-it was so bad, the guy just sat there. My DH stopped talking, put his manual down, leaned against the table, folded his arms and crossed his legs and smiled at the guy, making direct eye contact. The guy got the message and scuttled out!

Rachelle, I'd love to sit with u in sacrament meeting! It seems people like u and I are in the minority!

[Wingnut]

DH was teaching one time and this kid was screaming away-it was so bad, the guy just sat there. My DH stopped talking, put his manual down, leaned against the table, folded his arms and crossed his legs and smiled at the guy, making direct eye contact. The guy got the message and scuttled out!

My mom was teaching in Young Women once, and stopped in the middle of her lesson to wait for the MiaMaids to stop giggling and threading their strips of paper through the sweater of one of them. I was mortified (as I was also a MiaMaid) that my mom would do that, but she was making a point.

[Guest DeborahC]

I think that's a very effective way to deal with rude people, personally, and wish more speakers at Sacrament would use it!

[NeuroTypical]

Loudmouth-I really have to disagree with you. I hardly think that expecting a parent to keep their kids under control is exersising 'unrighteous judgement'!!!

And of course, I never claimed otherwise. My claim, is the statement: "They are just the product of lazy parenting", that she made a 'harsh judgement'. I leave it up to anyone who reads that ensign article to conclude for themselves if it's righteous or unrighteous.

All Rachelle, I, and most people with half a brain in their heads want is for parents to take their kids out when they are noisy. It doesn't matter how you were brought up either, its BASIC COMMON SENSE.

I agree with you that it's common sense. But again, not everyone is in posession of basic common sense. Not everyone had good parents like you who raised them right. Not everyone is in full posession of their mental faculties. Not everyone has had good parental role models in their life. Hidden physical conditions can sap energy reserves, making it a hundred times harder to do what needs to be done. Yes, such behavior can very well be a result of how you were brought up.

I really don't want to stand by and say nothing while these folks are brushed aside with a dismissive wave and a "lazy parent" label.

One thing touching a nerve here, is that these judgements are being leveled at folks at church, in Sacrament meeting. You know, the meeting where we all sit and think for a minute about the state of our own soul, and what we can do to bring ourselves closer to God?

My mom was teaching in Young Women once, and stopped in the middle of her lesson to wait for the MiaMaids to stop giggling and threading their strips of paper through the sweater of one of them.

Public shaming can be quite effective in controlling behavior. Sometimes it's called for. Other times it isn't.

LM

Edited December 8, 2008 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[WillowTheWhisp]

One thing touching a nerve here, is that these judgements are being leveled at folks at church, in Sacrament meeting. You know, the meeting where we all sit and think for a minute about the state of our own soul, and what we can do to bring ourselves closer to God?

But that's just the point isn't it? With screaming children drowning out even the sacrament prayers how on earth can anyone be expected to sit and think even for a minute?

BTW here in the UK smacking children is not allowed and taking someone else's child out of sacrament meeting is also not permitted. You cannot be alone in a room with a child who is not your own. This even applies to Primary teachers. If there is only one child in that class age group and only one teacher then the class cannot exist. As for smacking someone else's child. You could be arrested for assault.

Edited December 8, 2008 by WillowTheWhisp

[Vanilla]

...adults who can't keep their mouth shut during Sacrament meeting. What is so important for an adult to tell another adult other than "I am having a heart attack". If not that then it can wait until after the meeting is over.Ben Raines

I heard a quote once when I was in primary that has stayed with me. I would love to say it to the adults that talk and whisper (loudly) or text away on their cell phones with the little beep beep beep for each stroke, but I have yet to be able to do it with a Christ like spirit instead of in irritation and anger, so I just think it to myself and try to let it go.

"I came to hear the Lord today, to feel His Spirit strong, instead I hear your talk and noise, do you think the Lord stayed long?"

Some day I will boil over and stand up in the middle of the meeting and yell at someone to shut up. Ben Raines

Hey Ben, if you ever do get the chance to use this quote, let me know how it works! I am pretty sure that standing up and yelling it will have the proper effect! :-)

As for the crying babies...little babies are not doing it in bad behavior, babies just cry, so they can cry in the foyer or mother's room instead of disrupting the rest of the congregation.

And for the little spirits filled with "Heavenly Energy"....I knew without a doubt that if I was taken out to the hall, that there was going to be a spanking involved and that everyone in the chapel would know that I was getting my "energy" busted out of me. Even at age four, I did not want the humiliation of being taken out like one of the other kids my age. (Yep, I actually got spanked for being disruptive and wow, I turned out okay, hmmmmm, imagine that! But that was a different time and now parents are afraid to do stuff like that.)

We didn't get snacks or drinks (unless we were babies and needed bottles), nor did we get toys or games. We were allowed to bring a pen or pencil and a pad of paper. My sister and I were allowed to play the "connect the dot" game, but let one giggle peep out of us and we were separated in a heartbeat and usually caught heck for it later.

[john doe]

But that's just the point isn't it? With screaming children drowning out even the sacrament prayers how on earth can anyone be expected to sit and think even for a minute?

BTW here in the UK smacking children is not allowed and taking someone else's child out of sacrament meeting is also not permitted. You cannot be alone in a room with a child who is not your own. This even applies to Primary teachers. If there is only one child in that class age group and only one teacher then the class cannot exist. As for smacking someone else's child. You could be arrested for assault.

It's called The Nanny State for a reason.

[MarginOfError]

And of course, I never claimed otherwise. My claim, is the statement: "They are just the product of lazy parenting", that she made a 'harsh judgement'. I leave it up to anyone who reads that ensign article to conclude for themselves if it's righteous or unrighteous.

::snicker snicker:: I love Elder Oaks's talk, and just for the fun of it, I'll point out that the judgment being made here is actually within the bounds of what Elder Oaks presented. Elder Oaks stated that we are not to make final judgments. It would be inappropriate to say that such behavior or such poor parenting will prevent that family from sharing eternity together. But as long as the judgment that their parenting style is poor is made with willingness to change our judgment should the parenting style improve, then what we are making is the intermediate judgment. These judgments we are permitted to make as these are the judgments we need to make to surround ourselves with the proper influences.

But even so, we cannot call these intermediate judgments 'righteous' if we are not making them with love and compassion.

However, I will also cite Boyd K. Packer's classic Reverence Invites Revelation

When we return for Sunday meetings, the music, dress, and conduct should be appropriate for worship. Foyers are built into our chapels to allow for the greeting and chatter that are typical of people who love one another. However, when we step into the chapel, we must!—each of us must—watch ourselves lest we be guilty of intruding when someone is struggling to feel delicate spiritual communications....

The reverence we speak of does not equate with absolute silence. We must be tolerant of little babies, even an occasional outburst from a toddler being ushered out to keep him from disturbing the peace. Unless the father is on the stand, he should do the ushering. (Boyd K. Packer)

[MarginOfError]

By the way, loudmouth, I want to thank you for challenging us to check our emotions and frustrations and try to view this with a little more compassion. We might pick on you a little for it, but I, for one, am appreciative of your intent.

[BenRaines]

Elder Oakes gave another talk at last general conferece. It was on Sacrament meeting and preparing for it. Another good read and to put in to practice.

I love all at church but would like for someone to respect my attempt at reverence as I try to respect their right to let their children run wild.

Ben Raines

[TheyCallMeMom]

Maybe we shoud lovingly take the parents out and sit with them on our laps and hold down their arms to teach them how to teach their children. :)

It is hard for adults to teach other adults manners if their parents didn't.

Ben Raines

we do it.. we lead by example and have seen it work first hand

Whats more embarrassing, and inspiring, than sitting behind 7 well behaved children and your 1 or 2 are acting up every week. thats why we sit in the second row.. and are thanked often for it

[Guest Alana]

My kids also might fall under this category. You see, my daughter has perfected the 'I'm going to be loud for 3 seconds only at random intervals' technique. This allows her to be as annoying as possible without actually having to be taken out because by the time I'm a nano second from getting up she has stopped and is looking like an angel. OK, not an angel, but at least not the demon she was seconds ago. Also, I don't sit in the back where we can be the least obtrusive. We sit about 1/3 back from the front on the side. Why? Because my kids are way less wiley when we sit here. This means there is not many people in front of us, so that my kids are less distracted and thus quieter. I don't let my kids walk in the aisle, or play on the edge of the pew, but sometimes they get away from me. I don't run and grab them, because they run. So I sit there and smile and pay no attention, and with in 30 seconds they'll wander back and I'll grab them before they know what's happened. With my first baby (I only have two) I usually made it to the sacrament being passed and then to the mothers 'lounge.' With baby two we probably had a solid 10 months of not having to leave. Now that she is almost 2 though, she's getting really wiggly. My husband doens't come to church, so I've just started sitting with an older couple at church who I'm comfortable with helping us.

I really do keep other people in mind. I expect my kids to be respectful and at the same time not robots. It's hard to find the balance. I know that sometimes my kids are distracting. I might wait a minute longer to take them out than most people would, but it's hard to gather both of them together and go out with out both of them freaking out at the same time. I guess all I can ask is for you to have pity on me. Church is the most exhausting 3 hours all week.

[Misshalfway]

There is no doubt that a crying toddler should be taken out to the hall or the mothers room or even the parking lot if needs be.

I have been in a lot of wards, and I must say that on the balance (at least in my experience), most parents do a pretty good job at managing children and their variety of behaviors. I wonder if the ones being spoken of in this thread are a minority at best.

And you know.....if you don't like kid noise.....well, I think you might have picked the wrong church. :) Anyone for a cheerio????

[Honor]

One of my most confusing experiences happened shortly after my son arrived. I had always planned on being a parent who was quick to remove my disruptive child from a meeting - my husband tells me I go overboard with trying to look out for the comfort level of those around me (I didn't think there was such a thing). During our first few Sundays at church with our newborn, I found myself jumping up when my son became fussy and taking him out to nurse or to be comforted. This was what I believed I was supposed to do. Then I started getting comments from other women about how I needed to relax and let him cry a little. My internal reaction what "WHAT?! I'm doing this for YOU so I'm not the next topic of complaint at your next playgroup! I've sat through those conversations and I don't really want to be the reason for one!" Outwardly I probably just smiled nervously and continued making my way to the mother’s lounge. It's like when I was attentive, I needed to relax, but if I wasn't, I was an oblivious mother. I felt like I was being made fun of for being a clueless "new mom" when really I just wanted to make sure I was not more of a disruption than I had to be. It all threw me for a loop.

Now just so you know, I KNOW there's a big difference between a fussy newborn and a screaming toddler and I have since become quite comfortable with the way I choose to handle any outbursts from my now 2 year old, but the experience made me feel like I was “danged” if I did and “danged” if I didn't. If there's going to be a double standard, shouldn't it be on the positive side of things rather than the negative? That we should be appreciative if a parent removes their children in a timely manor but ALSO be charitable towards those that don't do it quite as quickly as we might like?

[Iggy]

Another pet peeve is that for years there seems to be someone who thinks it is appropriate to clip their fingernails in Sacrament meeting. Arrrrgggghhh Ben Raines

We have a woman who cuts her Toe nails either during Sacrament or in Relief Society!-- THAT grosses me out.

Last time she sat in front of me in RS and went to cut her toe nails - I told her to stop and save that for home when she got through bathing. Oh, yeah - I said it LOUD.

Yesterday was F & T meeting. The first hour was all children. I asked the primary secretary seated next to me if Primary was canceled on F & T? She looked at me kind of funny, then I said - is that why the primary kids are giving their testimonies - you don't allow them to do it during Sharing Time like they should be?

Only three adults got to give their testimonies. One actually gave a Sunday school lesson, the other gave us a family history and the other mumbled and cried.

[Moksha]

If only there could be a giant hampster wheel in the gym.

[Guest DeborahC]

We have a woman who cuts her Toe nails either during Sacrament or in Relief Society!-- THAT grosses me out.

Eeeewwwwwwwww!

[Jenamarie]

Yesterday was F & T meeting. The first hour was all children. I asked the primary secretary seated next to me if Primary was canceled on F & T? She looked at me kind of funny, then I said - is that why the primary kids are giving their testimonies - you don't allow them to do it during Sharing Time like they should be?

Only three adults got to give their testimonies. One actually gave a Sunday school lesson, the other gave us a family history and the other mumbled and cried.

Are you sure they "should" be? I know my current Bishop doesn't allow Testimonies to be borne in the auxiaries (when I was in the YW's presidency we used to allow 5 minutes at the end for Testimonies, and RS did the same thing, then the Bishop asked us to stop, because he wanted to encourage more people to get up during the main meeting). If mostly kids went up to the pulpit then that's not the Primary Presidency's fault. Unless the kids were beating down any adult who tried to approach the pulpit, it's only the adults' fault that there weren't more of them up there.

[MarginOfError]

Whats more embarrassing, and inspiring, than sitting behind 7 well behaved children and your 1 or 2 are acting up every week. thats why we sit in the second row.. and are thanked often for it

Oh, I don't know, perhaps making a comment like that.

[Hemidakota]

I have witnessed myself. Parents with large families have a greater honor among their children in being obedient in Sacrament than a smaller family with children raising children with no control.

[Misshalfway]

I have witnessed myself. Parents with large families have a greater honor among their children in being obedient in Sacrament than a smaller family with children raising children with no control.

You are really going to say that?

Gosh....I love it when we start deciding some are "better" than others. Seems to me that misses the whole message of the Savior. So easy to throw a stone..........

[Jenamarie]

I have witnessed myself. Parents with large families have a greater honor among their children in being obedient in Sacrament than a smaller family with children raising children with no control.

You ought to come to my ward. It's quite the opposite.

[Hemidakota]

No one is casting stones here....something that is observed in a Sacrament meeting.

[Jenamarie]

Also, I'm kind of bothered by the amount of judgement against parents that has come out in this thread. I admit that my kids aren't the best behaved kids in Sacrament meeting, and more often than not one of us ends up out in the foyer with one of them for being unruly, but it is NOT for a lack of trying. Little kids have agency too, and I can teach and teach and teach, and enforce the rules, and try to make Sacrament as entertaining as possible for a 2 and 4 year old as I can (and for myself! I've sat through more than one mind-numbingly boring Sacrament meeting), but in the end it's up to them to use their little minds to CHOOSE to listen to those lessons and obey those rules that my husband and I have set up, and, being so young, and being in such a not-kid-friendly place, it's a difficult choice for them to have to make. Especially when the far more entertaining options of Primary and Nursey appear to be just outside those double doors.