Reverence Children in Sacrament Meeting

[Carborendum]

I was once in a ward (actually the entire stake) that was very rowdy before and after the meeting.  It got so bad that the bishop had to yell into the microphone just to be heard so he could start the meeting.

The choir director asked the organist to stop playing for about 30 seconds.  Then he got up to start leading the congregation in an impromptu hymn.  When people started singing along with it, the crowd began to shut up and take their seats.

The bishop didn't authorize this.  The director did it all on his own.  But seeing the effect, the bishop fully supported it.  It became known as a "Reverence Hymn."  I'd never heard of it.  But it seemed that it was a previously existing term. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

I'll give up my 2009 Handbook when you pry it from my cold, dead hands

Do you plan to ski this winter without gloves?

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I was once in a ward (actually the entire stake) that was very rowdy before and after the meeting.  It got so bad that the bishop had to yell into the microphone just to be heard so he could start the meeting.

The choir director asked the organist to stop playing for about 30 seconds.  Then he got up to start leading the congregation in an impromptu hymn.  When people started singing along with it, the crowd began to shut up and take their seats.

The bishop didn't authorize this.  The director did it all on his own.  But seeing the effect, the bishop fully supported it.  It became known as a "Reverence Hymn."  I'd never heard of it.  But it seemed that it was a previously existing term. 

I admittedly get irritated with Utah-bashing, especially the bashing of the Utah Saints, and normally speak up against it when I see it. Forgive me if I indulge just a bit in what may seem like Utah-Saints-bashing. It is not meant as such; just a recounting of my experience.

We were students at BYU when Sister Vort and I married in 1988. At BYU, Church student wards are provided for all students, both single and married. Sister Vort and I met and married at a singles BYU ward (namely, the language houses ward, whatever it was called, back in the olden times when there were actually individual language houses scattered around the perimeter of campus). But we bravely decided that rather than continue in a BYU married ward, we would venture out and join the Real Ward® that included the house we were renting. So the Sunday after we returned from our short honeymoon, we dutifully set off for Our Real Ward.

For me, it was an interesting experience. This ward had so many young men that it had two rather large elders quorums. (Quora, I suppose. Don't get much chance to use that plural, so I had better take advantage when I can.) I was assigned, IIRC, to the second quorum. The people were very friendly and as welcoming as one could expect. My wife's experience was similar. The Relief Society was enormous. For the time we were there, she was asked to introduce herself EVERY WEEK. Apparently, the RS presidency couldn't keep track of who was new and who had already introduced herself. So although people were friendly enough, we were lost in the crowds.

But the point of this story is sacrament meeting in the ward. Every sacrament meeting was an exercise in utter futility. There were LITERALLY (i.e. I am not making this up) small children running up and down the aisles screaming and running around the congregation, even on the pulpit. You may disbelieve me if you choose, but I am not exaggerating. It was unending pandemonium every single week. (In the six weeks we attended, we managed to hear exactly one sermon: A young (maybe 14-year-old) woman complaining about how awful her life was and how she didn't get the support she needed from her YW leaders.)

After six weeks of this, we admitted defeat and fled back to the confines of our new BYU married student ward, where we greatly enjoyed worship and fellowship for a couple of years.

I don't know what ever happened in that ward. I do not understand why the bishopric did not put an end to such disgraceful actions in their first few weeks. I wonder if people just get inured to the noise and irreverence and don't notice it any more. I could also believe that some ward members might take offense and get their nose out of joint, which would be too bad. But what good does such a "meeting" do, anyway? Maybe it would be worth offending some to create an actual reverent atmosphere. It's one thing to have babies and little children occasionally crying out during a meeting and having to be taken out of the congregation area; that's how life is, and most Saints understand that. But utter pandemonium is not acceptable, and cannot possibly be pleasing to him whom we claim we're worshipping.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

You may disbelieve me if you choose, but I am not exaggerating.

Oh, I believe you totally. One of my biggest surprises was how children sort of “run free” in sacrament meetings. It don’t let it bother me but it was totally different than any other church service I had ever been to.  

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Oh, I believe you totally. One of my biggest surprises was how children sort of “run free” in sacrament meetings. It don’t let it bother me but it was totally different than any other church service I had ever been to.  

FTR, children in LDS meetings, especially sacrament meeting, should never be allowed to "run free". I think we take it as a point of pride (if I may put it so) that we gladly include our children in our congregations, even though that means we have to make allowances for some minor disruptions. We're okay with that, because that's what it takes to rear a family, and we're all about that. Non-LDS visitors often notice, and occasionally remark, on this phenomenon. To many, it seems baffling to allow such interruptions, and makes the meeting seem less reverent to them. This is a social point, something that visitors will have to adapt to, because we're not leaving our children alone while we go to sacrament meetings any time soon.

If this is what you're talking about, Gator, then I understand and I sympathize with the viewpoint of the visitors, even while I hold fast to the LDS point of view. But what I was attempting to describe is something that went way, way, WAY beyond that. I have never, before or since, participated in any Church meeting or activity that approached the atmosphere we experienced for those six weeks. I have sympathy for those in the ward who longed for a Spirit-filled meeting of Saints but who never got it. I understand how difficult the challenge would be for a bishopric. I don't mean to be critical of individuals. I have just never experienced anything else like that, and frankly hope I never experience anything like it again. Or if I do, I hope I'm in a position to help such a ward find a better way.

[LDSGator]

Just now, Vort said:

If this is what you're talking about, Gator,

They would bounce from pew to pew, wander around, and generally just be little kids.
 

As someone who doesn’t have kids of my own, I have no right to say anything about how someone does or doesn’t parent their child. That would be the height of obnoxiousness on my part. 

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

They would bounce from pew to pew, wander around, and generally just be little kids.
 

As someone who doesn’t have kids of my own, I have no right to say anything about how someone does or doesn’t parent their child. That would be the height of obnoxiousness on my part. 

Yeah, I've seen that before. I find it inappropriate and a sign of parents lacking in parental skills. A bishop should pull such parents aside and kindly counsel them to control their children and not allow them to wander around. But again, what I'm describing goes way, way beyond that.

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

But again, what I'm describing goes way, way beyond that.

I get it. I imagine it would be very frustrating. 

[Grunt]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

 I do not understand why the bishopric did not put an end to such disgraceful actions in their first few weeks. 

I can't speak to that ward, nor am I casting judgement.  I will, however, share my experience as a member of the bishopric and the struggles we have with serving the one vs the many.  

I'm in a small ward, so it may be different here.  We have several children that require special attention.  They are often loud and boisterous.  Some families have several of these children in the same family.  The parents walk in and you can see the weariness in their face.  They've probably spent the entire morning trying to get those children dressed, fed, and to church.  They do this faithfully every week.  Then they spend the entire Sacrament meeting trying to keep those children quiet and in their seats.   They know other people are looking at them disapprovingly.  They get up and walk the halls with their children, hovering at the door during moments their children are quiet, trying to get some of the message they need but they miss most of it.  We try so hard to get them help, but it rarely works out.  

My heart breaks for those parents and I've spent many hours on my knees asking for ways to serve them and the ward.   

[Carborendum]

36 minutes ago, Vort said:

quorums. (Quora, I suppose. Don't get much chance to use that plural, so I had better take advantage when I can.)

Amen to both of your posts. 

But I thought I'd use a bit of thread jack to elicit discussion about this thought above.  I'm not certain that it is necessarily required to use "quora." 

As I understand it (although I know several Romantic languages, I don't know Latin all that well -- especially the plethora of grammatical conditions and terms) the word Quorum in Latin means "of whom."  There is neither singular or plural of such a term.  It is a preposition.

It becomes further complicated because Latin does have a word "quora" but it is considered a plural of another word that is so ancient that we don't know what it means anymore.  We don't have enough usages of it to determine the meaning from context.

In English, however, the meaning of the term "quorum" is slightly different from the Latin origin to mean "a group", especially a portion thereof (which hints at the original meaning "of whom").  And in English, it is considered a singular.  So, even though we tend to required the -um shall change to -a because of the Latin, the rule is ambiguous with this word.

So, some dictionaries favor one term over the other.  Some dictionaries admit that both are fairly popular. In fact, as i type this, the word quora is being highlighted as an incorrect spelling.

Feel free to correct me.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

23 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I can't speak to that ward, nor am I casting judgement.  I will, however, share my experience as a member of the bishopric and the struggles we have with serving the one vs the many.  

I'm in a small ward, so it may be different here.  We have several children that require special attention.  They are often loud and boisterous.  Some families have several of these children in the same family.  The parents walk in and you can see the weariness in their face.  They've probably spent the entire morning trying to get those children dressed, fed, and to church.  They do this faithfully every week.  Then they spend the entire Sacrament meeting trying to keep those children quiet and in their seats.   They know other people are looking at them disapprovingly.  They get up and walk the halls with their children, hovering at the door during moments their children are quiet, trying to get some of the message they need but they miss most of it.  We try so hard to get them help, but it rarely works out.  

My heart breaks for those parents and I've spent many hours on my knees asking for ways to serve them and the ward.   

Certainly, we do have some tolerance for certain conditions which are above and beyond which then result in conditions at church which are above and beyond.

In our ward, we have a family with special needs children.  One of them is much like Rain Man.  If you were to meet with her for 1 minute, you'd think she is mentally handicapped.  And she is.  But one side of her brain is highly intelligent.  She can memorize data at an intense rate.  And so far, it seems she remembers every detail forever.  But she doesn't know what any of it means.  And her social skills are non-existent.  Sometimes, she'll just carry on a fairly loud talking voice in the middle of the sacrament being served.  She simply doesn't know better.

The entire ward is aware of this.  And we're ok with it.  What are we supposed to do? Turn up our nose at a mentally handicapped child?

I also understand that many parents grew up in different ways and never really learned parenting skills.  And they never learned what "reverence" means.  So, they then teach their children to ignore the concept of reverence.  I believe this is an area where we can make an impact.  But I don't have the management or social skills to propose what methods to use to effect such change.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Feel free to correct me.

Nah. I was mostly joking anyway.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I can't speak to that ward, nor am I casting judgement.  I will, however, share my experience as a member of the bishopric and the struggles we have with serving the one vs the many.  

I'm in a small ward, so it may be different here.  We have several children that require special attention.  They are often loud and boisterous.  Some families have several of these children in the same family.  The parents walk in and you can see the weariness in their face.  They've probably spent the entire morning trying to get those children dressed, fed, and to church.  They do this faithfully every week.  Then they spend the entire Sacrament meeting trying to keep those children quiet and in their seats.   They know other people are looking at them disapprovingly.  They get up and walk the halls with their children, hovering at the door during moments their children are quiet, trying to get some of the message they need but they miss most of it.  We try so hard to get them help, but it rarely works out.  

My heart breaks for those parents and I've spent many hours on my knees asking for ways to serve them and the ward.   

Just to clarify, my experience had little or nothing to do with handicapped or special-needs children. It was an entire (and humongous) ward where child discipline was apparently non-existent, where a dozen or more little children would run screaming up and down the aisles and even on the pulpit, where the average ambient noise level from the congregation was sufficient to render the speaker inaudible, even over an amplified PA system. Again, I am not exaggerating.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Just to clarify, my experience had little or nothing to do with handicapped or special-needs children. It was an entire (and humongous) ward where child discipline was apparently non-existent, where a dozen or more little children would run screaming up and down the aisles and even on the pulpit, where the average ambient noise level from the congregation was sufficient to render the speaker inaudible, even over an amplified PA system. Again, I am not exaggerating.

I sincerely wasn't judging, just offering my perspective when approaching parents with unruly children.