Does God want members of His Church to prosper financially?

[sgrGODSway]

There is a great discussion going on in another part of this forum that I feel really belongs here. It was originally posted here but got moved before anyone had joined the discussion. Now that there have been 21 responses to the post I think it is time it gets moved back here where more people will likely read it and share their point of view.

Right now you can follow this link to the post http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-resources-information/19230-science-getting-rich-gods-way.html or you can find it by going to: LDS Mormon Forums...then to: Resources...then to: LDS Resources & Information...then to: The Science of Getting Rich GOD's Way.

I'd like to see the discussion here but at least it you can join it now that I have told you how to find it.

Thank you!

[Maxel]

From the Site Rules:

13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. If appropriate, you may post a link to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of LDS.net. LDS.net is not responsible for the content of any site linked on LDS.net.

Jacob 2:18-19

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. He blesses some with prosperity, and others with a lack thereof. My opinion is financial concern should be second, at best, in our mind concerning the Kingdom of God.

[Moksha]

I am wondering if more than one thread on your book may be sort of like spam.

BTW, Super Abundantly Rich Without Need of Mammon would be a book I would like to read.

[sgrGODSway]

I don't mind changing the topic heading...and I am not selling my book. Anyone who would like to read it can have it for FREE. I wrote it after a lot of fasting and prayer. I felt inspired to write it. I have shared a lot of the concepts with members of my ward as well as with non-members and I have "watched a light go on in peoples' heads". The book has created some great "aha" moments for people. There is nothing written in the book that is out of harmony with Gospel teachings.

Have you ever heard a talk or lesson that "quickened your understanding" because the Spirit was testifying Truth to you? In my book I am just sharing testimony of something that has become clear and profound for me.

I apologize if anyone thinks my intention was to spam or sell anything. That wasn't/isn't my intent.

I don't want the post in two places. I just feel that it belongs here instead of where it is.

PS. - Moksha, I like your book title. I think you should write that book :-) !

Edited March 12, 2009 by sgrGODSway

[pam]

When you see a thread has been moved it's because a moderator felt that it more appropriate in another section. Any time someone disagrees...just pm a moderator.

[Hemidakota]

I would personally change the title to read with th, LET US FOLLOW AND BE LIKE JOSEPH SMITH IN EARNING THE ETERNAL REWARDS.

[Maxel]

I somehow missed the whole 'it was moved' fact about your first thread. Obviously, the moderators feel that you're not breaking any site rules, and I apologize for my implication that you were. I chalk it up to bad pancake mix.

I don't mind changing the topic heading...and I am not selling my book. Anyone who would like to read it can have it for FREE. I wrote it after a lot of fasting and prayer. I felt inspired to write it. I have shared a lot of the concepts with members of my ward as well as with non-members and I have "watched a light go on in peoples' heads". The book has created some great "aha" moments for people. There is nothing written in the book that is out of harmony with Gospel teachings.

After reading this post, I feel worse about implicitly implying that you were doing something morally wrong. I chalk that up to bad manners and jumping to conclusions. Again, my apologies. Good luck!

[sgrGODSway]

Apology accepted.

[hordak]

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I don't think God is concerned with how much money make.

[beefche]

I don't think God is concerned with how much money make.

Hordak, do you think that means that to be rich is sinful or wrong? I see that as evidence that if your heart is set on riches then that is sinful. Having riches is not sinful...unless your heart is on them.

In fact, I would think God wants us to be wealthy (not just with money, either). My thoughts are that if we are righteous and wealthy, we have more to bless others with (money, health, vitality, wisdom, etc.).

[hordak]

Hordak, do you think that means that to be rich is sinful or wrong?

I see that as evidence that if your heart is set on riches then that is sinful. Having riches is not sinful...unless your heart is on them.

Absolutely not. I agree with your idea. Nothing wrong with earning money. It' expecting or praying for it i think is wrong.

I think God couldn't care less if you drive a 93 Geo Metro or an 09 Cadillac Escalade.

I have met very few people who pray for wealth so they can give it to others.

[sgrGODSway]

It's kind of funny but I think people assume that one must choose between having money and the Gospel. I also think that people feel it takes a lot of time and energy to make money. That may be true when you work for money but not when you co-create it with God's help. In fact co-creating money with God only happens if it is done HIS WAY. Yes, money can be made doing things in oposition to God's will...we all know this is true...but that is not what I am talking about. What I am saying is that anybody can prosper financially with God's help, and there are certain Laws that must be understood and applied, but once a person understands these Laws and how they work they can "become rich GOD's Way." Becoming rich any other way would not be following the Gospel plan. I share how this is done, in my book, and I am giving the book away for FREE so there is no reason for someone to not be able to afford it. My only wish is that if you like the book you share it with someone else.

[skippy740]

Being in the financial advisory business, my income is VERY much tied to these kinds of discussions.

Here's my take on it: Leave the world in a better place than when you entered it. Move from Success to Significance. Leave a legacy.

What kind of legacy do you want to leave behind? How about a testimony of tithing? How about a solid record of being honorable in your dealings?

There are times (especially now) when people are VERY FOCUSED about their financial situation. (I know I am.) But what is your motivation? Is it to have that Ferrari? Or is it to provide well for your family?

After your family is taken care of, and you've separated your self-image from the material possessions you hold in your life... what now? What do you strive for now? It's not about the MONEY now. You THINK it's about the money... because you feel you don't have any right now.

I would like to be at a point in my career where I'm bringing home a 7-figure annual income. Why? It's not about the money. It's not about recognition either (although I'm sure it will be nice). It's about who I need to become in order to achieve it. Enlightened self-interest is a very worthy goal.

At this point, I would have more freedom of time and financial means. Now I would have time to do more volunteer work or other non-profit charitable causes and find ways to give of my time, talent and means to others.

I have requested the book and I look forward to reading it.

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO, first, the thread is appropriate in both spots. After all, we are discussing the role of wealth in the gospel life. I see both sides. Jesus warns against the want of money and of storing treasures, and yet there are many passages where the LORD speaks to our prosperity. Additionally, so many of the Bible characters were people of means.

Additionally, while some are born with gifting in the area of acquiring wealth, I'm sure there are universal principles that the rest of us can learn. So...if you've gained some insights...thanks for sharing. I'll look over your blog soon.

[Islander]

I walked away from a very prominent position in a top 5 consulting firm in order to REALLY take care of my family. Although financially we reduced our income by 50%, we are, sincerely, much happier now. The old adage of"been there, done that" really does make sense and holds true. I earned a substantial income, traveled extensively and had tons of professional recognition but I was never home.

Today, I run my own small company, go home for lunch with my wife, can pick up the kids and go play with them after school early in the afternoon. The highlight of my day is when I can stop whatever it is I am doing and go with the Elders to visit and teach an investigator. That is just priceless. On Fridays all the Elders in the area come to my office for lunch (pizza or subs) and we have a great time. I drive 20 miles per week!!!

Material wealth, in my opinion, is the result of one's effort and industry. But our primary concern and life focus should be our relationship with God and our devotion to service in His name, our marriage and relationship to one's spouse and our care for the children. Everything else is peripheral. Whatever measure of wealth we obtain it is a gift and blessing from the Lord. Concern yourself not with obtaining an ever growing increase but with your stewardship of such blessing. We will account to the Lord for how we used it. Wealth as a measure of success is a very poor metric.

The "gospel of prosperity" has never been preached in our church to the saints in 180 years. We should not confuse personal insight, opinions and belief with revelation for the saints and the whole church.

Hope your book does well.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Islander

[sgrGODSway]

Islander

It sounds like your income may be less, but it enough to control your time. Most people, who don't have a business of their own, don't have the ability to do what you do.

I think you are doing exactly what you want to do and you do what makes you happy. That in my book is RICH.

I also know that anyone can have as much money as they like WITHOUT it taking a lot of time and becoming an all-consuming obsession.

You have become good at obeying some of the Laws...whether you do it consciously or not. An awareness of the Laws makes it easier to follow them and to teach others how to get results too. It's not so much what you do but how you think subconsciously that determines you outcomes. We have all observed someone trying to mimic the actions of another without getting the same results.

Edited March 13, 2009 by sgrGODSway

[Elgama]

I think God wants us to prosper - some people achieve that wealthy, some don't. Our goal is eternal progression, so whatever situation allows us to progress the furthest I am guessing is what my Heavnly Father wants for me. I have been promised in blessings the latter half of my life will be incredibly comfortable and happy, but we are comfortable right now.

-Charley

[a-train]

The LORD does want us to prosper financially and that is why He has warned us against debt and told us to have a savings and food storage. But we seem to keep forgetting that.

-a-train

[Moksha]

I suppose with enough bucks, we could order a custom built needle from Nieman Marcus that not only a camel, but a Mercedes and medium size private jet could fit through as well.

Hey, I was wondering if the dropping Dow signals a downturn in faith for those of the prosperity gospel.

[sgrGODSway]

a-train

Thank you!

There is the perpetual education fund too. It seems that poverty isn't God's plan or why would He care if someone lives in poverty if just being righteous was good enough for Him.

Question for everyone? Why do some people fear money and success? I believe that this fear will have to be dealt with and overcome, in this life or the next. Heavenly Father is the most successful person there is. All we have is His. He took all He put on this earth and gave it to Adam and Eve to have dominion over (please don't think of dominion in a negative way...God wouldn't give "dominion" to Adam and Eve if that were an evil term). I think that fear drives too many decisions when it comes to money. Money is just a simple means of exchange. It is a tool. It can be used for good or evil. Good people will do good with it and wicked people will do evil.

[Islander]

a-train

Thank you!

There is the perpetual education fund too. It seems that poverty isn't God's plan or why would He care if someone lives in poverty if just being righteous was good enough for Him.

Question for everyone? Why do some people fear money and success? I believe that this fear will have to be dealt with and overcome, in this life or the next. Heavenly Father is the most successful person there is. All we have is His. He took all He put on this earth and gave it to Adam and Eve to have dominion over (please don't think of dominion in a negative way...God wouldn't give "dominion" to Adam and Eve if that were an evil term). I think that fear drives too many decisions when it comes to money. Money is just a simple means of exchange. It is a tool. It can be used for good or evil. Good people will do good with it and wicked people will do evil.

You should read the conference report where Pres. Hinckley addressed the issue of the PEF. It has absolutely nothing to do with prosperity. You can not be a bishop and be unemployed, for example. I think this issue requires a bit more study of your part.

Again, I have no idea what your book is about but the premise that "God wants you to prosper" or the expectation that with righteousness and faithfulness comes prosperity is not a biblical principle not have we received such teaching from the prophets of this dispensation. You are entitled to your own insights, ideas, thoughts and opinions on the subject. That is a far cry from being able to share it with the saints as if an inspired or scriptural principle.

Today, most of the saints live outside of the US, most in object poverty and most of them are not illiterate. The Gospel is being proclaimed far and wide and the knowledge of the salvation of Christ and the power of the Priesthood of God is what has changed the lives of millions. Prosperity? They will die without reaching that point of earthly station, but they have received the bounty of eternal life.

I do wish you the best in your enterprise.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Islander

[sgrGODSway]

You are correct...you have no idea what the book is about. It has been read by members and non-member Christians alike and the response to date has been positive. You are welcome to read it for FREE if you like and I'd love to hear your opinion.

Here is why President Hinkley said the PEF was created:

"Now, my brethren, we face another problem in the Church. We have many missionaries, both young men and young women, who are called locally and who serve with honor in Mexico, Central America, South America, the Philippines, and other places. They have very little money, but they make a contribution with what they have. They are largely supported from the General Missionary Fund to which many of you contribute, and for these contributions we are very deeply grateful.

They become excellent missionaries working side by side with elders and sisters sent from the United States and Canada. While in this service they come to know how the Church operates. They develop a broadened understanding of the gospel. They learn to speak some English. They work with faith and devotion. Then comes the day of their release. They return to their homes. Their hopes are high. But many of them have great difficulty finding employment because they have no skills. They sink right back into the pit of poverty from which they came.

Because of limited abilities, they are not likely to become leaders in the Church. They are more likely to find themselves in need of welfare help. They will marry and rear families who will continue in the same cycle that they have known. Their future is bleak indeed. There are some others who have not gone on missions who find themselves in similar circumstances in development of skills to lift them from the ranks of the poor.

In an effort to remedy this situation, we propose a plan—a plan which we believe is inspired by the Lord. The Church is establishing a fund largely from the contributions of faithful Latter-day Saints who have and will contribute for this purpose. We are deeply grateful to them. Based on similar principles to those underlying the Perpetual Emigration Fund, we shall call it the Perpetual Education Fund.

From the earnings of this fund, loans will be made to ambitious young men and women, for the most part returned missionaries, so that they may borrow money to attend school. Then when they qualify for employment, it is anticipated that they will return that which they have borrowed together with a small amount of interest designed as an incentive to repay the loan".

Heavenly Father cares. He wants us to develop our talents and abilities, and to serve Him. This is difficult if day to day needs aren't met.

My book isn't about becoming a millionaire, multi-millionaire, or even billionaire. It is about how we can live the kind of life that lets us become all we can become...and money is just a piece of the equation. How much money a person needs to accomplish this is going to be different for each individual. The book is about how we are co-creators with God. It shows how to use God's Laws to our benefit and not to our destruction. It shows how we are responsible for our own "outcomes" because we are "the cause." It shows how to make changes on all levels...spiritual, intellectual, emotional, physical, etc...if we feel their are changes we would like to make.

Money is a tool...nothing more, nothing less. It is a simple means of exchange. Their are Laws that govern its acquisition and its successful growth. If you have all the money that you need to be, do, and have all that God wants you to be, do, and have then you are blessed and you should share how you have been able to do it with others. If you have an unfulfilled righteous desire(s), and it will likely take more money to accomplish it then what I share can help.

President Hinkley recognized a need for a large number of our members to change their financial status and God lead him to the next step...much like Joseph Smith would be lead to the next step because "he inquired of the Lord".

Everything I share in the book jives with what the Bretheren have talked about. Nothing opposes their teachings.

If all we ever needed was taught in Scripture and General Conference then many of the General Authorities would be wasting time writing books.

I am not a GA. I am a person sharing what I have learned, that's all, and it has helped many others to progress in whatever areas of life they saw need of help.

[a-train]

I think the trouble here comes with the definition of prosperity. If making for yourself a life of accumulating material wealth at the expense of your spiritual wealth is the definition of 'prosperity', then certainly the LORD has not promoted it. But if by 'prosperity' we mean the physical and spiritual redemption of man, we can see that it is the focus of the gospel. The Word of Wisdom, for example, is designed to bring about physical prosperity, and we can see many examples (such as the late President Gordon B. Hinckley) of those blessed thereby. The avoidance of debt in keeping with the admonitions of the prophets is also unquestionably good advice.

The accumulation of material possessions at the expense of liberty through debt and slavery is not the definition of prosperity. The wealth that cannot go through the eye of the needle is not wealth at all. What prevents the camel from going through? It is captive.

We seem to so quickly remember that we cannot serve mammon and God, but we seem to forget that while we are not to serve earthly resources, we are to be served thereby. The Church has accumulated vast resources. With land, resources, capital, and labor the Church produces necessities of life. This is no sin, but it is righteousness.

If our eye is single to God's glory, all these things will be added to us. This does not mean that only the righteous will accumulate wealth. In fact, a great deal of the wicked system we live in transmits wealth to a wicked few. Further, there is no reason to believe that spiritual worthiness will bring monetary wealth. But we should not feel like we are doing sin in building a savings, no matter how large it gets, if it be that our purpose in building it is righteous.

If that purpose is to educate and raise up children to God and to send them on missions and to build meeting houses and do the work wherein we have been called, then it is certainly no sin.

-a-train

Edited March 14, 2009 by a-train

[bert10]

Prosperity versus getting rich.

You know that there are not the same thing. The Lord created the earth with enough resources to sustain adequately everyone on it. Shortages are caused when a small minority has more than what they need.

Everytime a man buys more than he needs in cars, house, clothes etc except food which we can share with those who have not...is shouldering part of the responsibility for the shortages.

King David said it best....

Psalms 23:1 - A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psalms 23:2 - He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Psalms 23:3 - He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psalms 23:4 - Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psalms 23:5 - Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Psalms 23:6 - Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

There used to be a Christian movement a few years ago...expounding the Scriptures on how to get rich.

I am a Spiritual seeker and I am interested in your book. The Job that I have right now...was provided to me by the Lord [long story]. And it is sufficient to meet my family's need. Wanting to be rich is of the Ego and it is not the same thing as prosperity. Just be aware....And the more one has...the more one is tied to Babylon. And with wealth comes a huge responsibility to them who has not.

Peace be unto

bert10

There is a great discussion going on in another part of this forum that I feel really belongs here. It was originally posted here but got moved before anyone had joined the discussion. Now that there have been 21 responses to the post I think it is time it gets moved back here where more people will likely read it and share their point of view.

Right now you can follow this link to the post http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-resources-information/19230-science-getting-rich-gods-way.html or you can find it by going to: LDS Mormon Forums...then to: Resources...then to: LDS Resources & Information...then to: The Science of Getting Rich GOD's Way.

I'd like to see the discussion here but at least it you can join it now that I have told you how to find it.

Thank you!

[sgrGODSway]

I propose that there is no lack. God used matter unorganized to create and organize the world, but He didn't use it all up when making this beautiful world we live in.

When we do things God's way we are co-creators with Him. When we do things in opposition to His way (opposition to Law) we harm others. One way creates more good for all, and the other way is to try to take from another to have more for oneself.

The good news is that the adversary and man cannot take it all. That isn't possible.

Does God see lack or abundance? What do we see? I think if we can see things as He sees them and understand things as He understands them, we can become co-creators with Him. He is way more advanced than we are, but His goal is to help us become like He is. It may take millions and millions of years to become like He is, after this life, but eventually we can get there...because He says we can.

Man couldn't fly until he understood the Laws of aerodynamics. He used those Laws to overcome gravity. I believe God has also provided Laws to overcome lack and poverty, they just aren't well understood. If we obey these Laws we prosper. If we disobey these Laws whether in ignorance or on purpose we deal with the consequences.

There is God's lasting way to abundance, and there is the fleeting counterfeit way of the adversary.

Some people obey God's Laws on purpose, and some by accident...but obedience still brings blessings. Laws are never-changing. They always work.

If a young innocent child walks off a cliff, they will still fall. Their lack of knowledge regarding the Law of gravity doesn't keep them from falling. Innocent people get hurt all the time because they ignorantly break Laws.

I think a lot of members of the Church break the Laws that God has established for co-creating their lives. It mostly happens out of ignorance. Most people don't know how what they are thinking and doing determines their outcomes. They have no idea that they can easily change all of this rather quickly once they know what to do, how to do it, and why they should.

Edited March 14, 2009 by sgrGODSway