Can someone please be honest with me?

[MarginOfError]

I had posted this message on another thread, but I decided it would be best to start a new one.

I would like for everyone to stop lying to me about church history. Before I was baptized, I asked repeatedly to church leaders for answers regarding blacks in the Mormon church. I asked about the priesthood ban, and I was never told it was through revelation! I was also told that Brigham Young had put the ban into effect.(no official reason given) I questioned skin color, curses, etc. And, everyone assured me that those things were false and that skin color only had to do with good/evil (spiritual). Not race.

So, I trusted my bishop and me and my beautiful family were baptized. Years later, a woman made some offensive comments regarding blacks in Relief Society. Being that this was a concern to me from the very beginning, I started researching church history again. I read some very disturbing things that some of our leaders and authorties of the church said. I tried get answers, but no one would be direct and honest with me. Unless, you are a person of color, you really don't realize how this hurts me. This is suppose to be the true chruch! Led by God. Well, God is not racists! I do not believe the ban and the racists things that I have read came through God! Please!

As some of you know, after being sealed in the temple and being active for eight years, my entire family went inactive due to the fact we felt lied to. (you should know, I asked these questions again before making covenants in the temple.) Again, I was assured that the preisthood ban did not occur due to racism (nothing ever mentioned about me being the lineage of Cain either).

So, a month ago, I started having promptings to return to church. These same "spiritual feelings" led me to the church. I lost sleep for a week thinking of nothing but the church. My life was fine. We have always been a close happy family so nothing was missing from my life. But, here I was thnking of the church. My husband informed me that he had prayed about it two weeks prior. Again, I asked for the stake president and bishop to come out to talk to us. They gave no reason for the ban. They said that skin color was not race in the BOM, but spirtual. I prayed about it. I went back to church.

So, is there a secret class for white members? Do you learn that blacks are the lineage of Cain? Were we less valiant in heaven? Is this what you learn? Because I have asked time and time again and was assured none of this was this case. I was told these were anti-mormon people writing these things and taking things out of context. Yet, I am reading from some of you things that I had not heard.

Why does my Patriarchal blessing state my lineage as being the same as some of my white brother and sisters of the church? Why does my blessing go on to say that I fought valiantly in heaven and many wonderful things about me in the pre mortal? The Patriarch holds the priesthood and was ordained by Prophet Hinkley.

I am reading things on these post that totally contradict what was assured to me before I made my sacred vows to God, and I am upset for the "secrets". Unless these are some of the prejudice views of man, and not the church. (which is my belief) God would not keep leading me back to a racist church.

Here is my family's conversion story. We are the second story. Meridian Magazine : : Print

I love the church, but I question why things are kept from me if we are the true church. It really bothers me. I don't want to encourage my family to be fully active again, unless I have all the truth.

What I can offer you is not official Church doctrine, but my interpretation of the myriad things that I have read on the subject. You may find things that you like, or things that you don’t like. You’re welcome to adopt or reject whatever you will.

The first thing I will say is that many Church members have a bad case of The-prophet-can-do-no-wrong-itis. They look at people who have served as presidents of the Church, or in the Quorum of the Twelve, as if they never had a life outside of those responsibilities. They also tend to think that anything these men said is inherently prophetic, regardless of when the statement was made. For example, statements made be Elder Ezra Taft Benson (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve) are often erroneously attributed to President Ezra Taft Benson, even though Elder Benson said things that contradicted what members of the First Presidency of the time were saying. People often do this because they don’t realize the importance of context for a quote. Context includes things such as who said it, when they said it, where they said it, and to what audience they said it. More often than not, the comments immediately preceding and subsequent to the quote are important to understanding the full meaning of the quote. All too often, these parts of the context are omitted because people either a) don’t look them up, or b) just want to use the quote to support their predetermined conclusion.

Second, we as humans—and I myself am also guilty of this—seem to be determined to latch on to things we learned in our youth. We often don’t even consider the possibility that something we’ve heard for years upon years can be false or misconstrued. If we’ve been hearing it for so long, it must be true, right? The only way to get around this issue is thorough study in which we seek out the references that teach what we know so that we can reconstruct the knowledge for ourselves. Ideally, this also involves learning what sources contain the information and where they can be found so that we can share them with others. This kind of study also needs to be approached with an open mind—a mind willing to accept that maybe what we understood or believed before wasn’t entirely correct. Unfortunately, many times, people embark to find the supporting evidence of what they already think they know, but refuse to consider the possibility that what they already know is errant.

Third, people are notoriously bad at accepting the fact that some things we just won’t know the answer to. We seem to think there must be an explanation for everything. In the realm of revealed religion, we are not going to know everything, and there are going to be things that aren’t well explained. The reason for this is that they are not particularly essential to the goal of our mortal life; that is, obtaining exaltation. There is much we will learn in the eternities, and we are only given the tools we need for us to get ourselves there. What we really ought to do, in my opinion, is investigate some of these tough scenarios and look at plausible explanations and be willing to accept that any one of these explanations, a mixture of them, or something entirely different is the true reason.

As an example of plausible explanations, let’s consider dinosaurs. Where did they come from? Many people have their theories, and here are a few

• They actually lived on other planets, and pieces of those planets were used in the construction of this planet.
• The creationary period was much longer than six days on earth and dinosaurs were a part of the process of preparing the earth for man
• The organic material was placed so it could be compacted into fossil fuels by a loving God who knew we’d need a power source many millennia later.
• Dinosaurs are God’s private hoax. They never existed, and he gets a great laugh out of watching us try to figure out where they came from.

These all seem like plausible explanations to me, but I am not willing to state that any one is definitively true (although I do have an affinity for number 4).

Now, before I dive into your real question, let me point out that prophets are people who have emotions, opinions, and thought processes every bit as flawed as yours and mine. And even within the highest circles of the Church, opinions do not always agree (ie Ezra Taft Benson v. Hugh B. Brown). And it isn’t always obvious when an prophet or apostle is giving his personal opinion or when he’s speaking for the Lord.

Some of the explanations I’ve heard for why blacks were denied the priesthood for so long include

• The early Church members were predominantly from the Northeast US and Britain. Most people from those areas were abolitionists, which contributed to many of the problems with the surrounding pro-slavery counties in Missouri (remember, Missourians waged war on Kansas to try and influence an election toward making Kansas a slave state). Blacks may have been denied the priesthood to avoid further complications and persecutions that would arise if the public perceived blacks as having equal status in the Church. Over the years, this line of thinking may have become entrenched in people’s minds as, “just the way it is” and it wasn’t until Church leaders were trying to find a way to establish the Church in Africa that they successfully overthrew the antiquated notions of their youth.
• Brigham Young may very well have been racist. This shouldn’t be a big surprise, as most people were racist against blacks in those days. The policy to deny blacks the priesthood may have been based in his prejudices. If racism was as entrenched in the minds of Church leaders as it was among most white men of the time period, it is pretty conceivable that it would take over 100 years to overthrow that policy. So why would someone with such prejudices be chosen as a prophet? Remember that Young was president of the Church at a time of great tribulation for the Church, and Young had a mind that was able to manage all the logistics of moving thousands of people across the plains and establishing a civilization in an arid wasteland. The church has been built line upon line, and sometimes the lines, as interpreted by man, need to be revised.
• It could be that the statement Young made about blacks being ‘fencesitters’ is true. I will, however, admit that this seems less likely to me, as the statement was made to a Utah legislature and not in any kind of doctrinal setting to the Church at large.

There are probably a great many other plausible explanations, and I have no idea which, if any, are true. I know that I feel good and I feel happier when I live the principles that the Gospel teaches. For this reason, I continue to live its teachings, or rather, its doctrine. At the same time, I have no problem questioning its policies. Sometimes, policies will need to be changed in order to advance the work of God, and many times, questioning the status quo inspires us to ask God about it, leading to the needed change.

RANDOM TANGENT:

As far as I know, there is no direct link between Cain (the brother of Abel) and black skin. In the first volume of History of the Church, Joseph Smith talks about a meeting on the edge of the Missouri border where there were many of the tribe of Joseph (alluding to American Indians) and many who were descendants of Ham (blacks). Ham was one of the sons of Noah and was married to Egyptus (Abr. 1:23). In that same chapter, we learn that the curse of the Canaanites was preserved through Epyptus (see vv. 21-25). This is where the trail runs cold; I don’t know of (or remember) any scriptural evidence that links the Canaanites to Cain. It doesn’t seem like a big stretch to go from Cain to Canaanite, but there were people named Canaan in the scriptures, so the matters seems inconclusive to me at best.

[Just_A_Guy]

It's probably worth pointing out that President David O. McKay explicitly prayed for permission to remove the ban--sometime in the late 1950s, if I remember correctly. Permission was denied.

[Maureen]

Hi Lovely - you mentioned you have done some research. I don't know if you have read this yet but I thought it might be helpful. It is a lot of reading.

Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview

[Maureen]

The link name is only a part of the reading involved. The whole set of articles is titled: Neither White nor Black: Mormon Scholars Confront the Race Issue in a Universal Church.

[prisonchaplain]

I am NOT looking for a reason not to come back. I am back! Why is it when I ask sincere questions that I am struggling with, people want to claim I have a hidden agenda? Did you read my conversion story? (Charles family in Meridian)? I have struggled with this issue before I joined the church. We were presented with "truth" before baptism and asked to pray on the things that we are told to us. I feel as though I was not told the truth and things were kept from me. Then when I go inactive, people want to blame me? That really is not fair. I am VERY spirtual. You have no idea. Why do you think I am tormented over this? I sometimes can't function with my day-to-day task, because my faith is such an important part of my life.

IMHO, you struggle not against truth or revelation, but against the natural inclination of folk not to discuss uncomfortable topics--especially ones that raise up passionate opinions.

To give you a non-LDS example, my own church (which started nearly 100 years AFTER yours) also has some racial issues, given the timing. The "father" of our key pentecostal doctrine, Charles Parham, dismissed the Azusa Street Revival, condeming it as the-n-word religion! God used a very broken vessel, to be sure. Early white pentecostal preachers got their licenses (which allowed them free train rides back in the day) from George Mason's church (a black pentecostal group) because they had no organization--this in spite of the fact that for the most part black ministers would not have been allowed to preach in the white churches.

In the 1980s and 1990s there were a series of reconciliation meetings. Leaders from my church washed the feet of leaders of the historic black pentecostal churches. The first such incidences of this were spontaneous, and later on it became a prepared symbol of repentence. We were talking about all of this in our ministers' preparation class, when one student said, "Yes, I was talking with a black brother about this, and he said it was nice--but when will the white churches join us in fighting for economic justice and Affirmative Action?"

My church, like your church, is predominantly Republican. Not totally, not doctrinally, and not officially. But, it is. And the fear that expressing sincere repentence and empathy will turn into something more complicated and uncomfortable leads many of us to brush the hard stuff under the rug and say, "What's past is past. Let's move on towards victory."

Personally, me thinks Christians should be able to have the hard conversations WITHIN the church. But I also understand that many LDS who have been so for several generations believe that they too are oppressed minorities, and since they overcame, so should the other groups. That latent feeling, of course, can lead to severe misunderstandings and anger.

It's a tough thing you ask, Lovely. Many will try to side-step it. Perhaps a few brave souls will walk with you through the stormy waters of history and relationship, and mutual understanding.

[Soul_Searcher]

It is my opinion that NONE of the racial policies / statements including the priesthood ban were from God. These were the opinions of men. BY gave and many after him gave ridicules statements and sermons concerning other races that are completely false (as i'm sure you found) with very strong language including some starting with "the law of God".

IMO if the reason is wrong the policy is wrong it could not be from God.

Many I have spoke with are uncomfortable with this idea as it means all Prophets could be influence by personal opinions and new policy/ current could be wrong.

It is better then the alternative however.

I agree with this completely. However, I think that if one is to assume the Prophet was wrong, and it was his personal opinion, how can we be sure that what any Prophet has said is not personal opinion? We can't pick and choose what we feel we want and pass the rest of as 'opinion, not revelation'. Gordon B Hinckley himself said 'it's either all right, or all wrong'.

I have a book that is by Joseph Fielding Smith and he talks about black people in there. It is quite frankly disgraceful. We showed it to the missionaries and they were dumbfounded and shocked. There was an uncomfortable moment in our house after that. It is a very uncomfortable topic, one I find very hard to come to terms with myself.

[Guest idntknw]

Lovely12, I just wanted to say that I understand how you are feeling and I struggle with the same questions about race. I think it is human nature to want to question things. This is a perfect example of those "things".

Either this policy of not allowing Black persons the priesthood is a policy that was from God, or it was a policy from people. Myself, I will not believe that God would not allow Black persons to hold the priesthood, therefore it was put in place by people.

I do not buy the argument that a lot of people were racist and it took until 1978 (the year I was born) to change the policy. The Church should lead on issues like this.... not seemingly dragged along.

I don't know, maybe I am wrong.

[Saguaro]

Lovely12,

I recently listened a series of podcasts of an interview with Darron Smith, a black member of the church and former BYU professor, I found it very informative. You can find the podcasts here:

Multimedia & Writing Archive | Mormon Stories Podcast Archive

They are numbers 22, 23, & 24. There are other podcasts on that page regarding blacks and the priesthood but I haven't listened to any of them. Darron Smith has also written a book about his experiences:

Amazon.com: Black and Mormon: Newell G. Bringhurst, Darron T. Smith: Books

and he has he has his own website:

DarronSmith.com

I have not read the book nor looked at his website much, but the podcasts were very enlightening.

[applepansy]

We have been commanded by the Lord and counseled by our leaders to be obedient. This is a hard thing to do sometimes. Most especially when we don't agree with what we're hearing, reading, being taught, or be asked to do. Our Priesthood leaders have been called of God and ordained to lead...be the prophet, a GA, a Stake President, a bishop. We have been told that even if the priesthood leader is wrong, if we are obedient, everything will work out for our benefit.

I have had experience and struggles with being obedient when I didn't agree with a priesthood leader. I had to humble myself and consciously choose to support a priesthood leader whom I felt was wrong. It directly involved one of my children. The immediate result was very difficult.

Because I chose to humble myself and be obedient, the Lord made everything right. Looking back I can see the hand of the Lord. Truth became common knowledge and the way was paved for things to be made right. I have a strong testimony that obedience works. We will always be blessed for following the counsel of our leaders, even when or rather, especially when they might be wrong.

Our faith is in our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Through them all things are possible, including strengthening our faith when its being tested.

If this is off topic I apologize but I don't feel it is. Obedience can apply to all issues or concerns within the Church.

Lovely, I am not suggesting you're being disobedient. I see you struggling with a history in the Church that is difficult to reconcile. I can hear the hurt in your words. My heart hurts for you and I pray you'll be able to find the answers and peace you seek. My reason for posting this is to maybe give you another tool to help you find your answer and calm your heart and mind.

Prayerfully,

applepansy

[rameumptom]

The Church and its people (including prophets) are not perfect. We/They have personal perspectives that often cloud how each of us understand scripture and the world around us.

We are getting past the ban on the priesthood. We are now coming to grips with the fact that the ban was not due to any revelation or curse.

These things are issues we are now dealing with. And the church members are busy discussing it in many venues right now. blacklds.org is a great website. The Genesis Group is the Church's official group for blacks in the Church. Darius Black and Margaret Young have written several books, and now a documentary on blacks in the Church. Several blogs have written on the subject.

While a painful topic, I think it is good for us to all work through it together, so that all of us on all sides of the issue gain closure and understanding.

Even though I think Pres Brigham Young was very wrong on this opinion of his, I still believe he was an amazing man and prophet. None of us is perfect, and each of us has some very bad skeletons in our closets. Each of us has wrong-headed beliefs and perspectives. But if we are all seeking to progress in knowledge, light and truth, we can all be healed and blessed and united in our work.

[bytebear]

Hi Lovely12,

You do have a unique challenge that most members don't have to deal with. Here are my suggestions. First, if you are not a member of the Genesis Group, I would find out about it. You can even meet some black members who have been members long before the priesthood ban was lifted.

I would also not focus on "the ban was wrong" but focus on "Why would God allow the ban?" or even "Why would God institute the ban?" Did the ban have a purpose? If so, what is it. I think you will find more insightful spiritual answers if you open your heart to the purposes behind God's work, rather than just dismiss it as being wrong.

Now, that may make me seem like a racist, but I think people do the same thing with other issues in the church, like tithing or the Word of Wisdom? If you just dismiss the WoW as wrong, and stupid, you will never get the insight as to why God has instilled it. I hope that makes sense.

Unfortunately the priesthood ban has racist connections, because in the 1800s (and 1900s, and now) racism abounded. Yes, you can take the speeches of various church leaders and call them racists. And much of that was a justification for a practice which has no clear purpose. But unlike other Christian churches of the 1800s, the LDS Church still accepted blacks as members, and taught that they had souls (something that other churches denied). Also, you can take speeches by Abraham Lincoln and show that he was also a racist by ignoring the context of his message, or the time in which he lived. Church leaders were no more or less racist than everyone else around them, and in many instances of church policy and practice, they were less racist.

Finally, I want you to study deeply the history of the Church in Africa, specifically Nigeria. I often dismissed the priesthood ban as a bad thing, and it certainly has bad emotions attached to it in a country with a history or racism. But in Africa, those saints really had to prove themselves ready for the gospel before it could be brought to their land, and I personally believe that it was their faith and dedication to the gospel that lifted the ban. I believe they needed to learn how to be leaders before they could be officially made leaders, and when the ban was lifted in 1978, there were literally dozens of congregations already established that were made official. The priesthood ban for them was a blessing, and a trial by fire, which made those saints so much stronger and faithful than they ever would have been. So, I do see a purpose if only to strengthen the testimony of the gospel above the racism of man. I certainly think white Mormons have a special sensitivity to racism that is not found in other churches.

So, all I ask is that you are spiritually open to an answer that does not condemn the priesthood ban as being useless and wrong. I hope you find an answer to your question. I know I have a firm testimony of this church, and although I don't know all the answers, I know God has given me an answer that gives peace to my heart regarding this issue. I believe you can have the same thing, if you seek Him out. God bless you.

"... for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. " - Ether 12:6

Edited June 5, 2009 by bytebear

[MarginOfError]

It's probably worth pointing out that President David O. McKay explicitly prayed for permission to remove the ban--sometime in the late 1950s, if I remember correctly. Permission was denied.

I wonder if the unanimous voice thing came into play here? (see D&C 107:27)

That’s purely speculative…

[a-train]

After years of asking and searching, I have yet to see anyone able to produce any documentation of any revelation to any brethren which gave any direct commandment not to set apart black men to the priesthood.

-a-train

[hordak]

I agree with this completely. However, I think that if one is to assume the Prophet was wrong, and it was his personal opinion, how can we be sure that what any Prophet has said is not personal opinion?

We can't.IMO. I usually compare what was said with what Christ taught, and try to differentiate between what is good for the church as a whole, and what is good for the person.

I.E. When President Hinckely talked about earrings i believe it was good for the church as a whole, (Missionaries/ members covered in tattoos and piercing trying to share the churches message might scare some off) but as far as the individual is concerned we learn from 1 Samuel 16:7 that the lord sees NOT like man does. He sees the heart. Because i don't believe God would suddenly change his views i put this in the opinion box.

We can't pick and choose what we feel we want and pass the rest of as 'opinion, not revelation'.

We can. In fact we all do in some way , shape or form. Just some more then others.

Gordon B Hinckley himself said 'it's either all right, or all wrong'.

I don't think it can be. And i don't think he was meaning every historical policy/ practice doctrine/ statement etc.

I should add that although i think much of what is said is opinion, it doesn't mean it isn't good opinion or that it should be disregarded

and I don't assume something is opinion simply because it can be hard to follow it. (I.E. Tithing)

[Wingnut]

Perhaps.. this is the problem. Our missionaries simply don't know enough. They know the plan of salvation like the back of their hands.. but it seems to me (in general) that they have little to no knowledge of the tough issues.

Repeatedly throughout the scriptures, especially Doctrine and Covenants, comes the command to "Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed." (D&C 6:9) Missionaries are to teach the basic principles of the Gospel. They are not supposed to teach "the tough issues." Personally, I think a big reason for that is that there aren't clear answers to "the tough issues" so the answers given by missionaries won't be universal. Heck, take a look around this board and tell me if you can find a cut-and-dry answer on what tea is and isn't allowed by the Word of Wisdom, or whether or not members are allowed to drink caffeine. The missionaries teach the basics, not the pet doctrines/

Lovely, I would suggest that rather than seeking answers online, you look towards Professors at BYU for your answers.

Or maybe the prophets?

To the OP:

If you wonder why people think you are being defensive and/or looking for a way out, it is because you came here sounding defensive. You have been in and out several times already. You have searched this issue several times already. You are not satisfied with the answers you've received. When will you be? You've in the past been satisfied enough to get baptized, and also to be endowed and sealed in the temple. Why are you not now satisfied? I agree with those who say that you need to pray about it and decide whether or not you truly believe the Church is true and that God sets His chosen leaders at the head of it (not that everything they say or do is necessarily always direct from God, but that He will not allow them to lead us astray).

And I don't think it's the least bit out of line for people to "blame" you when you go inactive. It's a choice that you make, that no one forces on you. Yes, people can say and/or do things to influence that decision, but it is your decision and yours only. You can choose to do it or undo it at any time.

[Just_A_Guy]

I wonder if the unanimous voice thing came into play here? (see D&C 107:27)

That’s purely speculative…

I would like to think that had President McKay received a revelation ending the policy and then duly informed the Twelve, they would have fallen into line.

As it was, though, I seem to remember reading that President Kimball's raising the issue before the Quorum of the Twelve in 1978 was carefully timed to take advantage of the fact that one of the Quorum's most strident defenders of the ban (Mark E. Petersen) was out of town at the moment. When he returned to Salt Lake, the policy change was presented to him as a fait accompli.

[bhcs]

Lovely,

Here's my best shot at being honest:

Often members of the Church seek to justify the way things are rather than closely examine why they are. For me, the Priesthood ban is on of those things.

My personal opinion is that it never was a revelation. It was a prejudice. Rather than correcting the prejudice, we justified it with extra-doctrinal nonsense until we finally came to the point that the Lord had to step in and fix the mess we had made. The Lord expects us to be productive servants and not need to be counseled in all things - yet we still screw up.

This issue is one that has, and still does, trouble me greatly. I am a convert to the Church and, like you, I have spent many years 'discovering' the interesting gems of LDS history that would undoubtedly have squashed the tender testimony I had when I was baptized.

Yet I am still around. The only way that I have found peace is to let go of the idea that the Church and its leaders are infallible. At no time has God excused you, me, or anyone else from our own agency. It is not enough to rely on a sermon, a leader (at any level), or an institution to guide you through the storms of this life. We all have to form our own individual relationship with that Deity who made us.

I don't make the choices I do because of what a prophet wrote down millenia ago or a month ago. I make the choices I make because I am trying to move closer to my Father. I make a lot of mistakes. A lot. Those words those prophets wrote so long ago and the ones they are writing today often help me on that journey. When they don't help, I put them aside.

We are not here to be church members. The church is here to help us to return to our Father. It is temporal and changing. He is not. It is fallible and mortal. He is not.

I often feel lost in the culture that springs up around the Church. I have to remind myself that the culture is of men. Men are imperfect.

Two scriptures that help me are here:

1 Cor. 13:8:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away

and

Moroni 7:46-47

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

The gosepl, at the end of the day, is a simple thing. We must love each other, forgive each other, and accept the atonement of Christ. Everything else, prophetic or not, will eventually just fall away into unimportance.

I hope this helps.

[martybess]

Lovely,

I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time with this. May you find rest in the Lord from the torments of the advisory. Remember adversity, in one form or another, is the universal experience of man. It is the common lot of all to experience misfortune, suffering, sickness, or other adversities and doubt. Our faith is tried in various ways—sometimes unjustly tried [it seems]. At times it seems that even God is punishing us and ours. One of the things that makes all this so hard to bear is that we ourselves appear to be chosen for this affliction while others presumably escape these adversities. . . . [but] we cannot indulge ourselves the luxury of self-pity." The Gospel is true hang on. When George A. Smith was very ill, he was visited by his cousin, the Prophet Joseph Smith. The afflicted man reported: "He [the Prophet] told me I should never get discouraged, whatever difficulties might surround me. If I were sunk into the lowest pit of Nova Scotia and all the Rocky Mountains piled on top of me, I ought not to be discouraged, but hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I should come out on the top of the heap."

Listen only to the living Prophet and apostles and what they say and follow and you will come out on top.

May God Bless You and remember “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” [Pro 3:5,6]

- Marty

[Guest Lovely12]

I want to say THANK YOU to each and every one of you who responded to my post. I was literally a mess this morning when I wrote it. I was very upset and confused. After reading many of your responses, I feel much better.

I think many of your were right in saying that Satan knows this is a weak spot for me and he is working on me.

I know to many of you this may seem like a simple thing to deal with, but trust me it isn't. Sometimes I wish I could just walk away from the church, but I can't. Every time I try to forget about the church, I am pulled back, for reasons unknown to me. I have always been very spiritual and connected to God and I guess he wants me here. For the most part I am fine, but then I start having these fears and questions, and then the pain hits me again.

For those of you who have poured your hearts and advice out to me, I thank you. Don't worry about me. I'm a tough one. I just needed to hear some loving and good advice from people who care.

Thank you so much.

Much love to you and may God bless you all.

[Seanette]

Hey Islander, can you come to my "weeding"? I have lots in my yard!

I live in a ward that has a black family of 13--awesome family. I always feel a sense of pride (I know, it's a sin) when I see the boys in this family blessing and passing the sacrament--I sometimes think of other wards who are too vanilla and aren't blessed by having this fantastic family in their ward. I wonder how much good they are doing to dispell the notion that our church is racist--one of the men in this family is almost always handling the sacrament doing his priesthood duty. As we have visitors and investigators (many of whom are black or Hispanic) I wonder if they see how the blacks are treated in the real world and not as noted in the media or other outlets that say we are prejudice.

Sounds similar to a much-loved family in my present ward (although with fewer kids! They have 5, 2 still at home, and frequently bring grandkids to church). The wife is in the RS presidency, the son takes his turn with the Sacrament as frequently as any other boy, the daughter participates in youth service projects (I coordinate one such), and the husband is well-respected for his knowledge. I don't know anyone in the ward who doesn't love this family.

We also have a range of other ethnicities: Asian (I'm guessing Japanese, but could be wrong, haven't had a chance to get to know that older brother and his son), Filipino, Polynesian, and probably a few others.

In my ward, people are loved and respected for the character and talent they bring in, skin not relevant to anyone I've talked to. Another ward in my stake has a bad clique problem, but that has more to do with the student/non-student split, with some aspect of who lives where. Color not relevant there, either.

I'd suggest letting go of the past and looking forward, unless you want to have reasons to be hurt and offended.

[Guest Lovely12]

Brothers and sisters, please understand. This is not about being offended by another member of the church. This is much deeper than that. We have always been the only black family in our ward and have always been treated by pure love. I can't stress this enough. We had to request the largest sealing room in the temple, because so many of my LDS family came to see this beautiful and glorious day. I love my LDS family. I came to this post, because you all don't know me personally and I thought you would feel free to express your true feelings. Which, you have and I appreciate it so much.

I WANT to believe that the church is true and that our prophets are speaking by revelation from God. As you know, this is very important in the church. You are asked this question during your temple interview. The temple is held very sacred, as you all know. I can't answer "yes" to that question if I have doubt. (Satan knows this, too!)

You all don't undertand. I am very spirtual and I have tried to leave the church, but I keep getting pulled back in. I know God wants me in this church. I also know I must focus on that. Satan keeps working on this area for me. Like I said, for a while I am fine and strong in the church and then "boom" I'm hit again with these same issues. And, when I am hit, I am hit HARD. I loose sleep, thinking process, I mean , I am literally tormented! And, then I get peace again. But, when I am going through these experiences, it's something I can't even explain to you. I feel it will continue happen again and again. I am just trying to find a way to deal with this subject once and for all so I can move forward.

Also, I thought today how these "attacks" had hit me before my baptism, before preparing for the temple, and most recently, before returning back to church. Hummmm.....very interesting.

Today, I thought back to what had made me feel comfortable to continue on with baptism? Before my baptism, I struggled and prayed, and my answer was, "This is where you belong. Don't worry about the things that your human mind can't comprehend, this is where you belong." I felt COMPLETE peace, and I proceeded with my baptism. I also had the same "feeling" before I went to the temple. So, I must trust God and know that this is HIS church and focus on that during the times Satans tempt me. Many of you are right. I must focus on TODAY. I know I will be okay.

God has NEVER led me wrong so this church must be RIGHT.

Again, I thank all of you for wanting to help me.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Lovely12
grammar (probably more errors, but whose counting?!

[Guest Lovely12]

Thank you, bhcs! That was very powerful what you said in your response and I strongly agree with you. Thanks for the scripture references, too. Thank you.

Martybess, thank you, as well. I smiled when I read your closing scripture Proverbs 3:5,6. That is my favorite scripture. It seems like I already had the answers to my questions all along and I needed many of you to remind me of it. I just need to LISTEN to the spirit! I feel like dorthy in the "Wizard of Oz".

By the way, you all have been so helpful, that I have printed out this entire thread so I can read it again and again whenever I am tempted by the adversary. I know it will not never be easy, nothing good ever is, but I do feel much better.

Thank you!

Edited June 6, 2009 by Lovely12
spelling

[Seanette]

Glad to see you feeling better. My advice (assuming you haven't put me on Ignore ) is to not let Satan hassle you over the past. That's over with, the Church and most of the members have moved forward. Look forward to the future.

Yes, there's been progressing to do as a Church as time goes on (the Word of Wisdom and tithing also fall into this). "Line upon line, precept upon precept" - the Church is given greater truth and knowledge as the membership is able to deal with it. There's a lot currently considered standard, I'm sure, that will change as time goes on and the Church as a body learns and grows in strength, faith, and righteousness. That's one of the good parts about a church led by a prophet - we get that new information when the Lord decides, "Oh, good, they're ready for what I want to give them".

[Guest Lovely12]

Thank you, Seanette! Of couse you are not on "ignore". Thank you so much for you kind and loving words.

To Wingnut, I just read your post. It was pretty strong, but I appreciate your words. Just to clarify, I have only gone inactive ONCE (2005). I returned to church a month ago. I know the solution seems easy and simple enough to you, but I really do struggle off and on with this. Trust me, I don't want to! Just when I think I am over it, something new comes up that I have never heard before and opens old wounds. I should say, that some of these things in church history that I struggle with are not all related to racism, but other teachings (from our prophets) that have changed over time. It's just this issue that I find most difficult for me. I don't expect you to understand, but I appreciate your advice.

Also, I apologize to everyone if I seemed harsh or defensive to any of you. I am really a soft spoken and very compassionate person. I am sometimes accused of being too compassionate for I tend to defend the weak and "underdogs" of the world. My heart has actually gotten me into trouble at times. I was just having a bad "moment" today,which is no excuse for sounding harsh, so I deeply apologize.

Take care and God bless.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Lovely12
wanted to add additional info

[martybess]

You are welcome Lovely. May you always come off victorious and may the Lord always be your guide. :) - Marty