Non uniform belief? Why?

[lost87]

Lets pretend that there are some of us out there that consider a witness of the holy ghost to be esoteric hocus pocus. Not saying it is not true for you but I just don't buy it. Therefore I do not consider it proof of anything.

I am not even christian so how do I fit in with carm? What is your problem with me dude?

If this is the case my dear, then you will never understand us or our beliefs. What is more important in finding truth than a witness from God, the one person in all of existence who knows and understands everything? That is what we believe we recieve when we have a spiritual impression through the Holy Ghost. Asking us to prove the truth of our religion independent of that witness is like asking a doctor scientist to prove truth independent of science.

I think people are weary of the "I believe its true because I have felt the Holy Ghost bear withness of its validity" statement because they don't want to hinge a life change simply on someone's supposed spiritual experience, and that is completely fine. This confirmation is not just limited to a few people, EVERYONE who asks with a sincere intent has the right to feel this confirming influence. We don't ask anyone to just believe us when we say the church is true, we ask them to believe God when he tells them it is true. You can't ask an LDS person to give up their spiritual experiences to explain a religion, that would be asking us to give up the most important part of ourselves and our relationship with God. We believe in continuous revelation from Him, not only to our prophets, but also to just us everyday members. That revelation is what unites us in our core beliefs.

[lattelady]

Sometimes, in my relationship with God, as I pray and desire to hear from Him and wait for His Holy Spirit to speak to, I'll think I've gotten an answer, but I worry that: 'what if it's just me, my mind, telling me something (like the power of suggestion type-thing) and not really the Holy Spirit?' do you ever struggle with that?

[Gatorman]

Sometimes, in my relationship with God, as I pray and desire to hear from Him and wait for His Holy Spirit to speak to, I'll think I've gotten an answer, but I worry that: 'what if it's just me, my mind, telling me something (like the power of suggestion type-thing) and not really the Holy Spirit?' do you ever struggle with that?

Yes.

[lattelady]

I don't doubt GOD, and I don't doubt His power to speak to me clearly; but I doubt my own ability to hear Him well. I want to know I'm doing the right thing. In those times (well, really, as in all times) if I think I've heard from Him I'd have to bring that in light of what He's already said in His Word...if what I'm hearing can be based on truth, I believe I could go forward with that and know I'm obeying. If it would contradict truth He's already laid out, I would know I wasn't hearing from Him--because He doesn't contradict Himself. I've had to use that as a guide before, because I'm so fickle...and hesitant, I guess would be the word.

Edited August 21, 2009 by lattelady

[pam]

Sometimes, in my relationship with God, as I pray and desire to hear from Him and wait for His Holy Spirit to speak to, I'll think I've gotten an answer, but I worry that: 'what if it's just me, my mind, telling me something (like the power of suggestion type-thing) and not really the Holy Spirit?' do you ever struggle with that?

I do quite often. I find it's my own weaknesses and inner struggles that hinder my ability to know if it's me or the Spirit.

Edited August 21, 2009 by pam

[bytor2112]

I do quite often. I find it's my own weaknesses and inner struggles that hinder my ability to know if it's me or the Spirit.

Me too....however, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever, when the Spirit testifies of Truth....of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. That is a completely discernible and unique experience and is undeniable.

[lattelady]

Does everyone experience it that way? as..."completely discernible and undeniable"?

[pam]

Me too....however, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever, when the Spirit testifies of Truth....of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. That is a completely discernible and unique experience and is undeniable.

I'm not so sure it's always so black and white. I was discussing a couple of days ago a "feeling" I have had to read the Book of Mormon again though I had just finished it. Very strong feelings. Well this very wise friend made the comment..even if it's not the Spirit speaking to you; any feelings you have towards something like that are always good.

May not be the exact words she used..but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Connie]

Moroni 7:12-13

Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

[Canuck Mormon]

Does everyone experience it that way? as..."completely discernible and undeniable"?

For me personally, sometimes it is and sometimes it's not. I've had everything from a "warm, fuzzy" feeling to hearing someone telling me "Yes" (asking if I should marry my wife). Mostly though I get a tingling sensation whenever something is confirmed to me. Recently I was called to a position and I was questioning the calling. I asked in my heart if this was what The Lord wanted for me. Immediately I was all "tingly" and felt very much at ease with it. I had my answer. This was not a calling that I desperately wanted, so I know that it wasn't my own feelings.

Does that help?

[pam]

I'm a very emotional person and known to be a cry baby at times. Tears are my way of showing emotion. Runs in the women in my family. That's been one way I can tell if I am feeling the Spirit etc. If I get emotionally teared up..that's pretty much a sign.

[bytor2112]

Does everyone experience it that way? as..."completely discernible and undeniable"?

I think that is the reason most Latter Day Saints are Latter Day Saints. That being said, sometimes listening for the still small voice at other times might not be so clear. But when you receive the witness of the Spirit it is a very unique, tangible experience. Often times it produces great emotion, other times it is just very warm, comforting and assuring. My children describe it as being like someone has draped a warm blanket around them or that someone is gently touching them.

[mnn727]

Perhaps you are thinking something is a core belief when its not.

and

Everyone is at a different point in their spiritual journey, we learn a step at a time (line upon line, precept upon precept)

and

Most of Christianity believes salvation is a 1 time event, we believe its a journey.

[prisonchaplain]

Could the non-uniformity be due to different approaches to explanation? Some will try to recite exactly what they learned in the church's education system. Others will try to "translate" it into terms you can understand (mainstream Christian vocabulary, for example). Yet others will engage in a type of apologetics that emphasizes certain points that would elevate the LDS perspective as the most reasonable. And, then there's that 60% who are inactive, and will offer you only the vaguest explanation.

As a fun story, I once gave a 14-year old Jehovah's Witness the Foundations of Faith quiz, to see how close he came to the official teachings of the Assemblies of God. He scored 85% (17/20). I happened to know his doctrine well enough to know that he shouldn't have scored that well. He did so because he really wasn't that familiar with his own teachings, and because the test lent itself towards the "right" answers.

[Moksha]

Lets pretend that there are some of us out there that consider a witness of the holy ghost to be esoteric hocus pocus. Not saying it is not true for you but I just don't buy it.

It is fine if you don't believe it, but have you ever considered your relation to the Universe at large and felt connected to it. On a spiritual level, you could consider that to be the Holy Ghost. While this concept may seem esoteric, it is far from hocus pocus.

[Moksha]

Vegans don't drink Milk.

On the other hand, you're right. There are some members who do nothing but concentrate on the core, never going beyond, and there are those who do nothing but read pseudo-doctrine.

I'd call myself a Mormon Vegetarian.

You're making me hungry for a salad and some pasta with Alfredo sauce.

[Misshalfway]

Wow. THis conversation has been all over the map and I am not sure my comments will fit in here. But I will take a go at the OP.

I think the perception of the OP is both correct and incorrect. I guess I kinda view it like a soccer game. Everyone knows and agrees on the basic skills and the rules. But then there are these Pele players who come with a whole new way of expressing the skills and rules. They don't change the basic skills or rules. Pele understands how to play the game AND how to interpret it in his own unique way.

I actually think this this the beauty of the LDS faith -- lots of players who really shine. Yes we have our foundation doctrines (which btw don't necessarily include the KFDiscourse and the origins of God's grandpa. Those are deeper less understood doctrines.)

The Restoration did some interesting things. It answered some very important questions and reinstituted some very crucial practices. But it also gave birth to many more questions too. And ever since the first day, mormons have always wanted to know more. And since the windows of revelation were open, why not ask. :)

Now this is where there is some wiggle room. Sometimes God does give revelations that lay questions to rest. I think that the first vision of JSmith is the most conclusive revelation in this regard as to the basic nature of God. But then He may give another revelation that talks about... eternal progression and let's say this revelation isn't as complete. So people start to noodle and talk about it and guess and speculate and publish their thoughts.....etc. AND then folks like you come and look at all of it and it looks like we can't agree with each other. :)

Let me assure the OP that LDS people do have a very clear and unifying belief system. But there is also room for sometimes different takes on doctrines because not every truth is understood wearing black and white tinted googles. Nor is everything understood in terms of right and wrong....BUT there are definite parameters. Once one understands those parameters, then one can safely explore within them.

God didn't create dummies. :) (well, except my brother Earl. LOL) That means He expects us to use our brains and sometimes he doesn't always spell it out. He even encourages us to think things thru and "Ponder" as the scriptures call it BEFORE he gives more information. I think perhaps you may be seeing a whole host of people on and off this website in mid process. And that won't ever change considering the process won't end till we all bite the big one. :)

It also might help to remember something about truth itself (I mean truth of all kinds). Truth is always layered. So while we maybe understand the basics about baptism or repentance or microbiology, there is ALWAYS more to learn. And as we learn from God firsthand thru scripture/prayer/personal revelations/communications from the Holy Ghost and don't forget experience........., our minds and hearts start to understand and comprehend even the mysteries of the universe and of God himself. (not to mention helping us change to become more like God.)

And just a side note of advise for the OP as well...... It might help if you were to learn about the LDS alphabet starting at "A" rather than trying to understand all 26 letters just by looking at "Z" ( which in a lot of ways is about where the king follet discourse should be placed.) I assure you, once you have a clear understanding of the basics of say..eternal progression...all these things might just clear up for you. I suggest starting at Godhead, faith, repentance, baptism, holy ghost, endure to the end and the purpose of religious devotion in the first place.

[john doe]

I think PC is on to something here.

[bmy-]

Because certain things have been taught differently over time.

[bytebear]

The church is still young. It hasn't had thousands of years to weed out the heresy.

Come to think of it, if this were the original church, it would be 250 more years before we even had the various creeds written.

Edited August 21, 2009 by bytebear

[Misshalfway]

The church is still young. It hasn't had thousands of years to weed out the heresy.

......because you have seen so many churches succeed at doing that????

[bytebear]

......because you have seen so many churches succeed at doing that????

Well, comparing it to the original church, how uniformed were their beliefs in 150 AD?

[Misshalfway]

I am actually just teasing you a bit, bytebear. I sometimes can't help myself. :) I really did get the point you were making.

[Lstinthwrld]

It is fine if you don't believe it, but have you ever considered your relation to the Universe at large and felt connected to it. On a spiritual level, you could consider that to be the Holy Ghost. While this concept may seem esoteric, it is far from hocus pocus.

I was frustrated when I posted this. While it may be one of my hang ups I should not have worded it so strongly. I am sorry for the tone.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Lstinthwrld

[Lstinthwrld]

Wow. THis conversation has been all over the map and I am not sure my comments will fit in here. But I will take a go at the OP.

I think the perception of the OP is both correct and incorrect. I guess I kinda view it like a soccer game. Everyone knows and agrees on the basic skills and the rules. But then there are these Pele players who come with a whole new way of expressing the skills and rules. They don't change the basic skills or rules. Pele understands how to play the game AND how to interpret it in his own unique way.

I actually think this this the beauty of the LDS faith -- lots of players who really shine. Yes we have our foundation doctrines (which btw don't necessarily include the KFDiscourse and the origins of God's grandpa. Those are deeper less understood doctrines.)

The Restoration did some interesting things. It answered some very important questions and reinstituted some very crucial practices. But it also gave birth to many more questions too. And ever since the first day, mormons have always wanted to know more. And since the windows of revelation were open, why not ask. :)

Now this is where there is some wiggle room. Sometimes God does give revelations that lay questions to rest. I think that the first vision of JSmith is the most conclusive revelation in this regard as to the basic nature of God. But then He may give another revelation that talks about... eternal progression and let's say this revelation isn't as complete. So people start to noodle and talk about it and guess and speculate and publish their thoughts.....etc. AND then folks like you come and look at all of it and it looks like we can't agree with each other. :)

Let me assure the OP that LDS people do have a very clear and unifying belief system. But there is also room for sometimes different takes on doctrines because not every truth is understood wearing black and white tinted googles. Nor is everything understood in terms of right and wrong....BUT there are definite parameters. Once one understands those parameters, then one can safely explore within them.

God didn't create dummies. :) (well, except my brother Earl. LOL) That means He expects us to use our brains and sometimes he doesn't always spell it out. He even encourages us to think things thru and "Ponder" as the scriptures call it BEFORE he gives more information. I think perhaps you may be seeing a whole host of people on and off this website in mid process. And that won't ever change considering the process won't end till we all bite the big one. :)

It also might help to remember something about truth itself (I mean truth of all kinds). Truth is always layered. So while we maybe understand the basics about baptism or repentance or microbiology, there is ALWAYS more to learn. And as we learn from God firsthand thru scripture/prayer/personal revelations/communications from the Holy Ghost and don't forget experience........., our minds and hearts start to understand and comprehend even the mysteries of the universe and of God himself. (not to mention helping us change to become more like God.)

And just a side note of advise for the OP as well...... It might help if you were to learn about the LDS alphabet starting at "A" rather than trying to understand all 26 letters just by looking at "Z" ( which in a lot of ways is about where the king follet discourse should be placed.) I assure you, once you have a clear understanding of the basics of say..eternal progression...all these things might just clear up for you. I suggest starting at Godhead, faith, repentance, baptism, holy ghost, endure to the end and the purpose of religious devotion in the first place.

You are very wise Miss halfway your posts are always well thought out and always seem to go to the root of my problem.

I may just have to message you personally with my questions from now on.

I think I love you. Will you marry me?

Edited August 21, 2009 by Lstinthwrld