My friend...

[Moksha]

If this becomes a problem in the Church, we may have to abandon our 501©(3) tax-exempt status.

Become a political action committee instead?

BTW. have your grandkids ever asked if they could convert the bunker into a playroom?

[MrsAri]

Become a political action committee instead?

BTW. have your grandkids ever asked if they could convert the bunker into a playroom?

Well, I was gonna laugh at your comments, but I see that it doesn't exist in this category. lol

[Lorenzo]

I'm not suggesting anything in regard to you personally. I voiced my opinion, which you stated was harsh. We've come a long way, baby, and women do not wish to be humiliated in this manner.

I'm not God...nor am I a goddess...and my answer is no. And that's my final answer!

Some women do. Obviously. Some women seem to engage in it without any sense of humiliation. Those say that the issue for them isn't humiliation, personal pride, or selfishness, but a love of the Gospel as they understand it, obedience to its principles, and their family. Granted, not everyone can share a husband. Many people can't share their wealth or their testimony. Some because they are greedy, some because they seem to be inherently jealous about everything they identify as "mine" - money, time, happiness, nation, church, furniture, husband, etc.

As for me and my house, we follow the Lord ("Yes, Lord! Lord, Yes!"), come what may, (including Godhood), not self-centered human emotions and personal jealousy, and that's our final answer. :)

[FunkyTown]

I'm not suggesting anything in regard to you personally. I voiced my opinion, which you stated was harsh. We've come a long way, baby, and women do not wish to be humiliated in this manner.

I'm not God...nor am I a goddess...and my answer is no. And that's my final answer!

I'm concerned, Ari. Not because of your disagreement of polygamy. Frankly, that would be a difficult law to live. Even Brigham Young didn't want to preach it. However, if we're going to be honest, those days aren't all that unlikely for people who study Isaiah.

Isaiah 4:

Isaiah 4

1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

2In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

In my experience, active single men are far less than active single women.. The number of worthy men in the church is dwindling while women, strangely, seem to stay active far better. I've seen numbers that suggest that men are six times as likely to leave the church than women are. If marriage is an important part of God's plan, but there aren't enough worthy men for the worthy women, are you willing to deny someone else their place?

I don't pretend to know that's what this verse is referring to, but if God asks something difficult, should we say no?

[MrsAri]

Some women do. Obviously. Some women seem to engage in it without any sense of humiliation. Those say that the issue for them isn't humiliation, personal pride, or selfishness, but a love of the Gospel as they understand it, obedience to its principles, and their family. Granted, not everyone can share a husband. Many people can't share their wealth or their testimony. Some because they are greedy, some because they seem to be inherently jealous about everything they identify as "mine" - money, time, happiness, nation, church, furniture, husband, etc.

As for me and my house, we follow the Lord ("Yes, Lord! Lord, Yes!"), come what may, (including Godhood), not self-centered human emotions and personal jealousy, and that's our final answer. :)

The whole point is that polygamy is illegal; the Church does not practice polygamy. End of story!

[MrsAri]

I'm concerned, Ari. Not because of your disagreement of polygamy. Frankly, that would be a difficult law to live. Even Brigham Young didn't want to preach it. However, if we're going to be honest, those days aren't all that unlikely for people who study Isaiah.

Isaiah 4:

In my experience, active single men are far less than active single women.. The number of worthy men in the church is dwindling while women, strangely, seem to stay active far better. I've seen numbers that suggest that men are six times as likely to leave the church than women are. If marriage is an important part of God's plan, but there aren't enough worthy men for the worthy women, are you willing to deny someone else their place?

I don't pretend to know that's what this verse is referring to, but if God asks something difficult, should we say no?

I ain't doin' it and you can't make me!

[Lorenzo]

The whole point is that polygamy is illegal; the Church does not practice polygamy. End of story!

Maybe you are thinking of the nation you live in? It is not illegal in all nations. What does man's law, inimical to the Principles of the Gospel and always fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven, have to do with the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven with all its Principles and Privileges restored? It's not a question of what we want, or what we like, or what is easy, nor what conforms to man's law. Obedience, too, is a first principle of the Gospel. Obedience to God rather than to man.

"End of story" is a vain wish that has no basis in reality. The story continues now, will continue hereafter, will continue eternally.

"One eternal round" has no end of story.

(To populate other earths will require the cooperation of a great coterie of handmaidens. The burden on one would simply be too great and take too long.)

[Dravin]

(To populate other earths will require the cooperation of a great coterie of handmaidens. The burden on one would simply be too great and take too long.)

What exactly is the burden of the creation of spirit bodies on a perfected being? What is to long to an eternal being?

[MrsAri]

Maybe you are thinking of the nation you live in? It is not illegal in all nations. What does man's law, inimical to the Principles of the Gospel and always fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven, have to do with the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven with all its Principles and Privileges restored? It's not a question of what we want, or what we like, or what is easy, nor what conforms to man's law. Obedience, too, is a first principle of the Gospel. Obedience to God rather than to man.

"End of story" is a vain wish that has no basis in reality. The story continues now, will continue hereafter, will continue eternally.

"One eternal round" has no end of story.

(To populate other earths will require the cooperation of a great coterie of handmaidens. The burden on one would simply be too great and take too long.)

I propose that we let the Lord sort it all out. :)

[Lorenzo]

What exactly is the burden of the creation of spirit bodies on a perfected being? What is to long to an eternal being?

They may be "spirit" but they are as substantial as physical bodies, even if "more fine". Our Heavenly Parents create children the same way everyone else does.

There are two burdens that I see. The first is that there must be some period of gestation. That means the blessed Heavenly Mother must go for some period of time, whether it is 9 days or 9 months or 9 years, I do not know. But I know from what my wives told me, that preganancies consitute additional burdens ona woman. I'm taking them for their word. There is also the delivery. Spirit bodies are also physical but "more find", which does not mean there is no sensation in the bodies. So I imagine labor and delivery will constitute some discomfort. I don't know for certain how much, but everywhere else in nature that I see an animal being born, the mother does show symptoms of discomfort regardless of whatever numbing maternal joy may also be in play.

The second burden has to do with wasting time. On this earth we are on there are presently billions of people. If we add up all the people who have ever been here, there are multiple billions. Who knows how many, I don't. So I was thinking of my first spiritual child. Some day I will have one, and what will I teach him? Whatever it is, it won't take forever unless he is impossibly dense. So I teach him as much as I can, then it's time for him to get a physical body to learn more. Well, right now, there are about six million spirits being put into their physical bodies each month on this earth. So at some point, as a Heavenly Father over my own earth, I will have to have prepared and educated as many as six million spirit children monthy. Even if the gestation period of a Spirit Heavenly Mother is 9 seconds, one cannot give birth to that many at once. Or even over centuries; that in itself is too much to ask one woman to do. But I was talking about wasting time. Once my first child is completely educated, he will have to wait until there are enough spirits to fill physical bodies at the rate at which those physical bodies are going to be born. So my first child will have to wait thousands of years without gaining any new knowledge, just waiting for a physical body. Oh, sure, he could play. But I suspect that a spirit being who has learned all he can in the halls of Heaven, will not have the same care for child's play as a small child on the physical earth. He'll probably be several million years old before he is finally "placed" in his physical temple. Maybe there will be books to read, or relatives to visit, I don't know. But as for his progress, it will be on boringly deadly hold. Unless! There are multiple wives to produce spirit children more quickly. The more wives, the shorter the waiting period for the first-born. And remember, this doesn't happen just one time. This is "Eternal Progression". So after my first earth is resurrected, I will go on to my second and third and so on. There might even be more than one earth at a time that a Resurrected, Celestial Being manages.

The burdens are: multiple gestations for indeterminate periods of time each; the boredom of waiting room syndrome; six million spirit children a month being given physical bodies reflecting a spirit-child birth rate in Heaven of possibly as much as a few million monthly who have to be cared for as a single family. As in all families, the older they get, the more likely they are to rebel, so that adolescent period of Spirit Children also has to be dealt with, which probably burdens the Heavenly Father more directly than the other burdens.

By "too long" I was not referring to an abstract period of time, but to a period of time in relation to a specific experience, in this case, a burden. Some burdens are too long after a few seconds, some such as minor physical pain can be endured for years before they overwhelm a person. By "too long" I was referring specifically to the birthing of billions of spirit children by a single Heavenly Mother. Why should God have to wait billions of years for billions of children to be born, allowing the earliest born to languag without progress until there are enough to meet the anticipated birth rate of physical bodies? The more wives there are, the shorter the time till the earth can be populated, and the less time the first born has to "sit around doing nothing" as it were, waiting for all his siblings to be born before he can get his physical body and continue the process of eternal progression.

I should think anyone in his right mind would consider that giving birth to billions of children, spirit or otherwise, is in itself an obvious burden, and if done by a single wife, requires an incredibly long time.

[allredcon]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

As for homosexuality not having any baring on church, my Bishop said told us in Priesthood meeting that if gay marriage becomes legal throughout the nation, it will only be a matter of time before the church is forced to allow it in our holy temples! That's why it was so important to stop it in California first!

Just because they say it's legal, doesn't mean being straight is illegal. the church won't budge.

[Dravin]

But I know from what my wives told me, that preganancies consitute additional burdens ona woman.

They aren't perfected so their experience isn't necessarily applicable.

I don't know for certain how much, but everywhere else in nature that I see an animal being born, the mother does show symptoms of discomfort regardless of whatever numbing maternal joy may also be in play.

Once again not perfected and so not necessarily applicable.

The second burden has to do with wasting time.

How does one waste an endless resource?

Edited September 20, 2009 by Dravin

[MrsAri]

Why do I suddenly feel like a piece of meat? ;/

[ferretrunner]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

As for homosexuality not having any baring on church, my Bishop said told us in Priesthood meeting that if gay marriage becomes legal throughout the nation, it will only be a matter of time before the church is forced to allow it in our holy temples! That's why it was so important to stop it in California first!

The law can't force a religion to conduct marriages. If the LDS church chooses not to conduct same sex marriages, law can't supercede it.

[interalia]

By "too long" I was not referring to an abstract period of time, but to a period of time in relation to a specific experience, in this case, a burden. Some burdens are too long after a few seconds, some such as minor physical pain can be endured for years before they overwhelm a person. By "too long" I was referring specifically to the birthing of billions of spirit children by a single Heavenly Mother. Why should God have to wait billions of years for billions of children to be born, allowing the earliest born to languag without progress until there are enough to meet the anticipated birth rate of physical bodies? The more wives there are, the shorter the time till the earth can be populated, and the less time the first born has to "sit around doing nothing" as it were, waiting for all his siblings to be born before he can get his physical body and continue the process of eternal progression.

This has to be the single most interesting interpretation/explanation of polygamy in the Eternal Worlds I have ever seen. I don't agree with it at all, but it is certainly interesting and something I would not have considered.

[Gwen]

unfortunately i've heard it before and it makes me nauseous every time. oh well.

[Generally_Me]

Isn't the reason that women undergo so much discomfort (as Gnat puts it) because of the whole fruit thing? I was given to understand that resurrected bodies will not be subject to nausea, high blood pressure, bloating and so forth. Also what is time to an everlasting being? Who says the children will all grow/develop at the same rate? I am almost certain they will not.

I don't agree with you Gnat, but I do thank you for the different perspective.

[FunkyTown]

Why do I suddenly feel like a piece of meat? ;/

I know how you feel, Ari. I'm not just a man-pretty piece of meat to be watched and adored for my hunkiness.

That's only part of me.

[will227457]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

As for homosexuality not having any baring on church, my Bishop said told us in Priesthood meeting that if gay marriage becomes legal throughout the nation, it will only be a matter of time before the church is forced to allow it in our holy temples! That's why it was so important to stop it in California first!

un true...the temple ceremony will become spritual and no longer temporally binding....

legal marriages will no longer be allowed in the temples so that they will not have to comply with local law, you will have to get married civily first then go to the temple....

It works that way in other countries...

[Threeve]

As for homosexuality not having any baring on church, my Bishop said told us in Priesthood meeting that if gay marriage becomes legal throughout the nation, it will only be a matter of time before the church is forced to allow it in our holy temples! That's why it was so important to stop it in California first!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Ug, I HATE when church members say this. It has no basis in fact, just fear. Even lots of straight non-members or "not worthy" members are not allowed to be married in the temple. Man, I hate saying "not worthy" it reminds me of Wayne's World. "We're not worthy! We're not worthy! We're scum!"

Leave your friend alone, it really is no business of yours, and the church views homosexual thoughts and tendancies as not a sin. Even so, if you even caught him in the act, it's between him and his bishop.

As for the polygamy debate I've been reading... No one really knows the actual mechanics heavenly mothers use to bring about spirit children, certainly it's different than having a child of flesh and bones. No one knows. It does exist in the CK, as Joseph Smith, B Young, and other prophets and men have been sealed to many wives. Does that mean it's required? Probably not, no one knows, I believe it's not doctrinal that it is required. MrsAri, I've seen your obviousl uncomfort with this topic in other formus, too. I don't believe in a loving God that would force you to do some thing that will make you eternally unhappy. Others may be fine with it, and you're right, it does seem like woman are treated as "meat" some times. I certainly do feel that way some times in this life, and what's my reward for living a faithful life? Having children for eternity, while my husband is off with his other wives and creating worlds. Hooo, boy. Where do I sign up? xD If it's required, I most likely won't be involved, so maybe you and I can hang out, MrsAri. :)

[Moksha]

The more wives there are, the shorter the time till the earth can be populated, and the less time the first born has to "sit around doing nothing" as it were, ...

Sitting around doing nothing would make Heaven a rather dull place. Surely there must be something to do. What about watching reruns of NCIS or rereading the Book of Mormon?

[Vort]

No one really knows the actual mechanics heavenly mothers use to bring about spirit children, certainly it's different than having a child of flesh and bones. No one knows.

If no one knows, as you (correctly) claim, then how do you know that "certainly it's different than having a child of flesh and bones"?

[Threeve]

If no one knows, as you (correctly) claim, then how do you know that "certainly it's different than having a child of flesh and bones"?

~~~~~~~~~~

For one, spirit children don't have flesh and bones, that would be a different experience would it not? Our bodies would be different, we wouldn't feel pain or have blood running through our bodies. You need blood to nurture a child inside of you. Since our bodies would be different, perfected, whatever, doesn't it makes sense that child bearing would be a different/perfected experience? Just my thoughts, obviously I don't know either, I've never had a spirit child.

[pam]

I'm going to close this thread. The OP is no longer a member of the site and any further posts have nothing to do with the OP.