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pam

Earth the most wicked?

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Okay I'm doing a project and here is the question and answer. I need help to know if the answer is correct:

Question:

Through Jesus, the worlds are and were created. He is Lord of the universe. He appears to be not only the Creator of the inhabitants of all the worlds, but their Redeemer as well. Are we of the position that the plan of Salvation played out differently on our world than on all others (with the Lord born in the flesh only on our very Earth)? It seems this could not repeat itself – scripture seems clear that resurrection means that spirit and body will never separate again. If the answer is “yes,” that begs the question “what is the plan like on other worlds?” Christ as exemplar is key to our doctrine.

I believe the answer to be approximately: It is not for us (except to him or her to whom the Lord may reveal such mysteries) to know of things that transpire on other worlds, as those things have no bearing on our salvation. … But is there a better answer? Thanks again,

Answer:

First of all, Jesus is not the creator of the inhabitants of the worlds. All the inhabitants of all the worlds are children of our Father in Heaven, just as He, the Firstborn, is. The Savior was born on this earth rather than any other because it is the most wicked world in all the universe. As he told Enoch,

Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36)

The scriptures tell us that he descended below all things (D&C 88:6), not just the things in this world.

We also understand that He is the Savior of all the worlds, the only Redeemer of all our Father’s children. Therefore, His great atoning sacrifice had to have been an infinite sacrifice (Alma 34:10) to satisfy the demands of justice in paying the price for all the sins of the infinite number of children of our Father in Heaven.

As he is the Savior of all the worlds, the inhabitants of the other worlds must know who He is, and must follow the same gospel requirements in order to qualify for salvation. So the inhabitants of other worlds know of the great atoning sacrifice, which, when it occurred, caused all eternity to be pained, as we learn in D&C 38:11-12-

For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven- Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined.

He has revealed to us that He has visited all the worlds and they know who He is. It must be concluded, therefore, that He established his church among them, gave them the power and authority of the holy priesthood and holy prophets to represent him to the people.

In D&C 88 the Savior speaks of the earth and all the planets (v 43), not just the planets of our solar system, as our earth is probably the only populated planet in the solar system. In verses 51 to 61 He explains that He visits all the planets, likening them to a man who visits in turn each of the workers that he sends into his field. In verse 61 He clarifies that all these groups of workers represent kingdoms, or planets.

Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof-every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.

So the plan of life and salvation is one and the same for all our Father’s children, and the Firstborn Son, and Only Begotten, is the Savior of all the universe. This is made clear in D&C 76:22-24-

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father- That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

The preface to that part of the Section reads- “The inhabitants of many worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through the atonement of Jesus Christ..” So we are not kept in ignorance of the plan of salvation as it applies to other worlds. It is the same. There is one and only one Savior, one and only one plan of salvation. All who are saved must come to know and accept the Lord, Jesus Christ, who was born into mortality on this earth, as their Savior and Redeemer. And they have revealed to them all that they need to know in order to qualify for all the blessings that our Father has made available for all His children.

How correct is this answer and do you agree with it?

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The Savior was born on this earth rather than any other because it is the most wicked world in all the universe. As he told Enoch,

Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36)

It's mainly this comment that I am questioning.

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Sounds good to me. That's pretty much my understanding. It seems that the Book of Mormon is a good example of what would happen on other worlds.

Prophets testify of Christ.

After resurrection christ visits those worlds.

Etc.

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What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds?

I think we have no way of actually knowing that. It isn't the first time I've heard this idea proposed, but part of me can't shake the feeling that the idea survives because of it's poetic nature.

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What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds?

I've heard that many times. I guess it makes sense in some respects.

Probably more of those spirits who were the closest to choosing Satan's plan but yet still choose to follow Christ have been sent here. These Spirits would have a more wicked nature than those who were less inclined to follow Satan.

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What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds?

Christ atonement is only effective to the worlds that were created when this event occurred. The worlds before and the worlds after will require one of FATHER's children to take on this role - being called - the Savior.

Among those worlds that were created during this event, this world is considered the ‘most wicked’. Why? The spirits who rebelled prior to mortality but not enough to be considered Sons of Perdition, will inherited this earth to help in either fulfill their part in bringing evil [lackeys for the devils] to this earth or help to purify those who are considered righteous before our FATHER. Now, even the tribe of Judah, is considered the most wicked among the inhabitants of this earth during the time of Christ's birth. If Christ was born in the Americas [Tribe of Joseph], the inhabitants would not have crucified their Master.

Pam, there is nothing that prevents you in seeing other worlds were our brothers and sisters are seeking their own salvation but your own desire, hope, and applying faith in seeing it for yourself.

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I think we have no way of actually knowing that. It isn't the first time I've heard this idea proposed, but part of me can't shake the feeling that the idea survives because of it's poetic nature.

We can if we had the desire, hope, and faith in seeking this personal testimony.

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What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds?

As it was at this world that the savior was slain i'd say it's probable...

But this is really a fringe sor tof knowledge and it does not matter whether this world was the most wicked or not.

Besides even if we did know another world to compare to, what would we use for a yard stick?

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Opposition in all things. This may be the most wicked of all worlds, but it is also the world where our Savior experienced mortality. We are greatly blessed to be allowed the privilege of seeking after Him where He lived :cool:

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I remember it being said somewhere, of our day, that the strongest spirits have been sent at this time.

The strongest were NEEDED at this time, because the temptations of the devil have become so strong. He's had a lot of time to practice, to garner tools for his handiwork, and he's perfected his trade. He knows how to draw away even the most faithful. So we need to be strong.

Does this mean the world is more wicked? That our world is THE most wicked of all the worlds? I'm not sure if I would look at it that way. I would think of it more as, where is Satan working the hardest? It doesn't take much effort for him to draw away the weak in heart and mind. Perhaps the Jews (at the time of Christ) were a group of these weaker spirits, easily enticed by the devil. They were "more wicked" than any other people because they were weak, and this is why Christ was sent to them. God sends his strongest people into the fires that will mold them, where they can have the strongest effect on those around them, and he certainly didn't do differently with Christ.

Satan will work even harder on those who are strong, because they take more work and effort to be drawn away. Looking at the signs of the times and how rampant his lessons and ideals are in our world and culture, I would say that we are filled with a world of strong spirits. That is why it appears to be filled with so much wickedness.

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I see this issue the same way I see people who once claimed the Earth was the center of the Universe. We know there are billions upon billions of worlds out there, and the chances that we are somehow unique based on our own interpretation of scripture seems extremely arrogant and unlikely.

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What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds?

I believe Hugh Nibley has some comments on this world being the most wicked... I'll have to look it up again. It was reference why the Lord came to the earth when he did. Why during the roman empire and not say, 1877 or something. His answers if I remember correctly was along the lines that this world and at that time in this world's history was the only time and place that the children of God were wicked enough to crucify their own savior.

If you think about how wicked the world is today...I dont think we'd actually kill a man for saying he was the Son of God. We'd just make fun of him on TV or send him to a hospital.

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So bottom line answer is "We don't know and it's not doctrine" right?

The reason I asked this is: I'm doing a project for TheMoreGoodFoundation and it's a question and answer forum. People email in questions and there is a person that answers the questions. I've been tasked to go through these just to make sure the answers are in line with doctrine as there are many non LDS that frequent the site.

What I'm thinking is..perhaps I should take out just that comment relating to earth being the most wicked as the rest appears to be okay to me. I just wanted to get opinions on this.

Edited by pam

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Opposition in all things. This may be the most wicked of all worlds, but it is also the world where our Savior experienced mortality. We are greatly blessed to be allowed the privilege of seeking after Him where He lived :cool:

I agree with this. I think what God is saying here too is that He never let it go this far before. The reason it seems that way is because he is talking about His own workmanship. The opposition is the refiners fire. So, in other words, He is letting us become greater than any other world as well. How many other Enochs were there? and How many other Zion's were there?

The other thing to question too is the fact that He said that before the flood. That level of wickedness was cleansed from the Earth wasn't it?

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Another thing to consider is that the Savior said it was for the sick that he came to heal. So, wouldnt just make sense that the most holy Son of God would chose the most wicked world to come and serve His mission?

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I believe Hugh Nibley has some comments on this world being the most wicked... I'll have to look it up again. It was reference why the Lord came to the earth when he did. Why during the roman empire and not say, 1877 or something. His answers if I remember correctly was along the lines that this world and at that time in this world's history was the only time and place that the children of God were wicked enough to crucify their own savior.

If you think about how wicked the world is today...I dont think we'd actually kill a man for saying he was the Son of God. We'd just make fun of him on TV or send him to a hospital.

Interesting side thought ... we commonly look at wickedness as people making decisions and choosing wrong behaviors but it also might refer to corruption. Corruption is a way to describe how far removed the creation is from its original form after the fall. There was a great amount of genetic diversity that had to take place, if you think about it. How did one couple procreate so many survivable offspring that in turn married amongst each other? Probably for the same reason brothers had different color skin and giants existed. There probably (again, this is just my speculative thoughts out loud and by no means doctrine) was a lot more genetic diversity built into the system to allow for stability in procreation. The problem with that though is that it went off in all directions to the point that God told them not to marry into certain groups. The other thing that makes me wonder about this is that Seth is described as having the likeness of Adam ... in other words he wasn't that far off the genetic scale as the others and in fact that is the line God kept and destroyed all the others.

We see this a lot in nature, all the seedlings in a forest don't grow up to be full grown trees. All the brain cells one has in their head at birth don't survive past puberty as the ones that aren't needed undergo apoptosis.

God may have just let the genetic diversity go farther than it ever has, thus, it was more corrupt from the original than it ever had been and therefore more wicked.

The test was never supposed to be so difficult that we couldn't overcome it. But if the test conditions were heading in the direction that hardly anyone had a chance to do well, then you have to reformulate the test, balance it out. In part, that is what the flood did. There was still some genetic diversity but not so wild that it threw the test conditions in that direction. The emphasis on lineage and 'son of man' and 'son of God' as well as description of color of skin even, is interesting when considering genetic diversity.

(Please don't think I am racist by these comments, I am of mixed race myself. At the same time realize that we are the farthest we have ever been from the perfect genetic code Adam and Eve had, or Noah for that matter - which could also explain why they lived so long - a topic for another thread)

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Pam

I would say that you have a sound understanding of the principles of the atonement.

You wrote:

“The Savior was born on this earth rather than any other because it is the most wicked world in all the universe.”

And you wrote: “What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds?

Using the following as your basis:

“among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36)”

Reading your words as quoted above, whether you intended it or not, I (as a reader) would get a lousy feeling about myself being here.

There are some things that can be considered however.

Adam and Eve were alive during the time of Enoch and indeed all the patriarchs to Enoch’s day, if I have not missed something, were alive or had lived during Enoch’s time. Adam and Eve and the patriarchs were among the most righteous people that have ever walked the face of this earth or any earth even to this day; Adam being very much like Christ.

Also consider that in Moses 7 verses 21 – 23 and so on, the righteous had all been taken up into Zion leaving mostly the wicked of the earth left. Further reading will show that as people repented were also separated or taken up into Zion. Then your verse 36 would make since, and it seems to me that Enoch was not included among the group about whom the Lord was speaking.

It appears to me that there is a spectrum of wickedness to righteous and when ever there has been great wickedness there has, at the same time, been great righteousness present but not necessarily in terms of numbers of persons.

In your post the questioner also stated:

“I believe the answer to be approximately: It is not for us (except to him or her to whom the Lord may reveal such mysteries) to know of things that transpire on other worlds, as those things have no bearing on our salvation. … But is there a better answer?”

As to, “is there a better answer?” I can not say. However, the comment, “(except to him or her to whom the Lord may reveal such mysteries).” I would take from context that statement to be referring to prophecies referring to other worlds. In Moses 1:40 we see a pattern when the Lord said: And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.

With the exception of a few obtuse references by Joseph Smith (as far as I know) none of the prophets have spoken or written about anything other than that pertains to this earth.

We can say as you (Pam) have said that the atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite and would cover all of God’s children where ever they may be. We can not say with certainty what other children of other worlds may or may not have been given in terms of knowledge or priesthood. We can say with confidence what ever they have been given, they will be judged according to the laws which they have received.

The problem is comments about other worlds or “mother in heaven” or what ever we know little about are like spreading photons of light in between which is darkness (unknown). The human mind hates darkness or in other words loves to fill in the blanks. What is plane is that Heavenly Father will fill in the blanks in His own time, and in His own way, and according to His own will.

Just one more minor thing. In your response you started out with “First of all, Jesus is not the creator…” That comes across to me as a little dogmatic. You may want to soften that up a bit by saying something like “My understanding is…” That way it gives the reader a little wiggle room.

Now that I have read what I have written I see that I have not been all that positive when I really like what you have written. I feel as you do when you said “So the plan of life and salvation is one and the same for all our Father’s children, and the Firstborn Son, and Only Begotten, is the Savior of all the universe.”

In the context of this topic we might, with some trepidation, modify the words of King Benjamin to read:

Mosiah 3: 17

17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men (God), only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

Kukui

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Thanks for your response Kukui. Please keep in mind that my OP are not my words. I copied and pasted the question and response from another website.

I was strictly asking as to whether or not the response given to the question was correct.

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Worlds have come and gone, all created by the Son, under the direction of the Father.

And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

...

For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

...

And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. (Moses 1:33,35,38)

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son, the Savior, and there is no other name and no other way that salvation comes to mankind. His atonement was infinite and eternal (Alma 34:10), and it was done once and for all mankind. The worlds exist and the inhabitants enter their exaltation through the merits of Jesus Christ.

For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:23-24)

According to our scriptures, there are no other Christs, else he is not the Only Begotten, and he atoned for the sins of mankind, once and for all. He is the Creator of worlds without number and the Redeemer of mankind.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Christ is the Redeemer of all worlds. For many of the Nephites, a Savior born on the other side of the world was probably as unrealistic-seeming as a Savior born on another world. It would also be the same as thinking that some god, who would be born thousands of years in the future, was going to be the Redeemer. It is all a matter of faith that transcends space and time.

I think there are other worlds that have, at times, been as wicked as the world was at the time of Jesus' death. However, there could not have been a "more" wicked world. Moses 7:36 determines that there is no where else to go but up. It does not mean that people on other worlds could not be so wicked as to slay the innocent. Without wickedness/temptation occurring on other planets, they can never experience full agency, and could never attain full exaltation.

God's eternal round includes a world experiencing a telestial state, where murder, adultery, and great wickedness can abound if the people do not repent.

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Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36)


I can see the implications here: Either the Divine hand exists in a non-physically limited human form or it is a metaphor which would imply the existence of something non-literal. This might be quite a conundrum for some.

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