About 8 yr old baptism...

[carlimac]

In Moroni 8:8 it says, "wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin.."

So why is there so much emphasis in Primary about children's sins being washed away when they are baptized at the age of eight? For example, I think of the song in "I Love to Look For Rainbows" which is a pretty little song, but technically, isn't it teaching an incorrect principle in the line, "I know when I am baptized, my wrongs are washed away"?

[marts1]

One of the reasons for baptism, I think, is a reminder that we need to continously be in a repentant way of life. I think partaking of the sacrament, is almost the same as being baptized again.

[Just_A_Guy]

Are there any scriptures that use the "wash away" metaphor regarding baptism? I know we hear it a lot in church, but my understanding was that it's actually receiving the Holy Ghost that cleanses us of our sins.

Beyond that: I think the eight-year-old thing is a general indicator of a point at which the vast majority of children have become accountable for their actions. But I don't think it means that at 11:59 PM on the day before his 8th birthday a kid is sinless, and then all of a sudden the clock ticks and--blammo--he's lost his innocence.

Odds are that by the time the baptism actually occurs, the kid has committed at least a couple of (minor) sins that need to be purged.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Connie]

Maybe you should check your footnotes and/or do a study of the word "whole." What exactly is a "wrong?" Is there a difference between "sin" and "transgression?" What's the purpose of baptism? Why was Jesus baptized if he had no wrongs to wash away? Just some rhetorical questions to get you thinking and perhaps aid you in your study. This may also be helpful.

[carlimac]

Are there any scriptures that use the "wash away" metaphor regarding baptism? I know we hear it a lot in church, but my understanding was that it's actually receiving the Holy Ghost that cleanses us of our sins.

Beyond that: I think the eight-year-old thing is a general indicator of a point at which the vast majority of children have become accountable for their actions. But I don't think it means that at 11:59 PM on the day before his 8th birthday a kid is sinless, and then all of a sudden the clock ticks and--blammo--he's lost his innocence.

Odds are that by the time the baptism actually occurs, the kid has committed at least a couple of (minor) sins that need to be purged.

Ha ha! So the longer the child waits to be baptized, the more sins he gets washed away for free? (jkjk)

We just make such a big deal about not baptizing infants. The reason for that is clear. "Men are punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions." But is age 8 too soon?

I understand the age of accountability. That makes sense. It's an appropriate time for kids ( more or less) to understand the whole repentance process and take responsibility for their actions. But I also KNOW children understand far sooner than age 8 when they are doing something wrong. My 7 yr old told me yesterday she knows she's a troublemaker (she's right ) and she knew without a doubt that she was in deep doo doo for taking some money that belonged to another family member. But that isn't sin? Well, OK. If it's just a lack of judgement or a little slip up, then I wish we would emphasize the need for baptism at the age of 8 MORE for becoming a member of Heavenly Father's church rather than the washing away sins thing. The pat and standard answer in all the Primary manuals to "Why do we get baptized?" is "To have our sins washed away." ( I'm a Primary teacher of 7 yr olds. I know. ) But if little children can't sin...?? Hmmm!

The other thing I wonder sometimes (I don't sit around feeling bothered by this all the time) is that the covenants and committments we make at baptism are rarely taught to pre-8 yr olds. I don't think I fully understood " mourning with those that mourn and comforting those that stand in need of comfort" till I was about 40. I don't recall anyone ever telling me that's what I was committing to do when I was baptized. My parents were very devoted members of the church who took their church responsibilities seriously, but truthfully, The only thing I remember being taught at age 7 3/4 about my baptism is what it would feel like to go under the water and that I'd get to go out to dinner with my family afterwards. I DO recall a very peaceful feeling during my confirmation that I recognize now was the gift of the Holy Ghost being given me.

Anyway, this is just observation. Not really complaint. 5 of my own 7 children have been baptized and I'm not sure I did any better a job of preparing them than my parents did for me. Maybe it's time to change that for my last two. I remember being impressed many years ago by the amount of preparation it took for a nearly 13 yr old boy I was aquainted with who was about to go through his Bar Mitzvah. He had to memorize scripture and song and be thoroughly knowledgable about what he was doing. I would feel better about 8 yr old baptism if our children were a little better prepared. Some are, but generallly I think most have a pretty vaugue understanding of what it all means.

Edited May 5, 2010 by carlimac

[applepansy]

Age 8 is the age of accountability. I don't know very many kids who do not understand right and wrong by that age. They are also veyr aware of the mistakes they may have made at age 8.

My husband and I teach the 8yo baptism lessons. Its amazing what these kids understand at that age.

A mistake becomes a sin when we know its wrong and we do it anyway. Kids even younger than 8 understand this. At age 8, they are fully capable of understanding repentance and atonement. Its just a matter of teaching them.

I think its great that you will be more involved in teaching your younger two.

Edited May 5, 2010 by applepansy
addition

[MarginOfError]

I think it would be erroneous to think that children younger than 8 can't sin. Mormon taught that little children have no need of baptism, and that little children are not capable of committing sin. But I wouldn't concede that any child under the age of 8 is a 'little child.' You've experienced this with your 7-year-old, who knows when she's doing things wrong.

Even my two-year-old understands that there are things we don't want her to do. I wouldn't call her accountable as I don't know that she understands why its' wrong, or that she has developed enough self-control yet to be held fully accountable for all of her decisions. Yet, as young as she is, she understands that some actions are pleasing and some are not.

So if we accept that children become capable of sin at some point, we are left asking ourselves, "at what point do we hold our children accountable?" This is a really hard question to answer, because it varies from one child to the next. In situations like this, what we tend to do is pick a somewhat arbitrary moment and claim it is that moment that we will use as the standard by which we measure. It may not be perfect, but it would seem to fit most situations.

As a statistician, I can tell you how we might come to decide on that moment. We want to pick an age of accountability at which we can be certain that the vast majority of children are accountable and are capable of committing sin. The widely accepted standard would be the age at which we felt we could say that 95% of children are capable of committing sin.

Theoretically, we would do some research, and would come up with a graph like this:

[ATTACH]404[/ATTACH]

Having used our research and found that 95% of children are capable of sin at 8 years old, we would then choose the age of 8 as the appropriate time for baptism, because that's the age at which at least 95% of children are capable of sin and in need of the Atonement.

[carlimac]

Maybe you should check your footnotes and/or do a study of the word "whole." What exactly is a "wrong?" Is there a difference between "sin" and "transgression?" What's the purpose of baptism? Why was Jesus baptized if he had no wrongs to wash away? Just some rhetorical questions to get you thinking and perhaps aid you in your study. This may also be helpful.

We all know Jesus was baptized to set an example. But that's not why 8 yr old children are baptized. So the answer to that questions doesn't help. But thanks for the advice anyway.

[Matthew0059]

The other thing I wonder sometimes (I don't sit around feeling bothered by this all the time) is that the covenants and committments we make at baptism are rarely taught to pre-8 yr olds. I don't think I fully understood " mourning with those that mourn and comforting those that stand in need of comfort" till I was about 40.

To be frank, beloved sister, I doubt you even now fully understand what it means. I don't fully understand what it means; I doubt my bishop doesn't fully understand; even the Prophet would, I believe, claim that he doesn't 'fully understand'. I'd wager the only person who fully understood what it meant in mortality was the Savior, after having performed the Atonement.

Covenants and commitments are guideposts as well as initiatory rituals, I think.

[carlimac]

To be frank, beloved sister, I doubt you even now fully understand what it means. I don't fully understand what it means; I doubt my bishop doesn't fully understand; even the Prophet would, I believe, claim that he doesn't 'fully understand'. I'd wager the only person who fully understood what it meant in mortality was the Savior, after having performed the Atonement.

Covenants and commitments are guideposts as well as initiatory rituals, I think.

You're right. We can't fully understand.

What I should have said was that I wasn't really aware that Mosiah 18: 8-10 was part of the baptismal covenant till I was an adult.

8 ...", as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?"

That's a pretty big commitment to be making at age 8. I think kids can understand it in a very elementary way. But it really isn't emphasized in Primary or any of the songs they sing about baptism. They sing generally about "trying to be like Jesus" but not in relation to an actual covenant we are making to do these specific things after being baptized. I honestly heard nothing about this prior to my baptism. I felt sort of stupid (having been a life long member) when I did learn about it in terms of it being "what we promise at baptism". I thought...I promised that? Not that I wouldn't gladly do those things anyway, but I honeslty had never heard of that particular aspect of baptism before. (Sheesh- what else don't I know? ) Maybe it's a relatively new emphasis in the church. The scripture reference has always been there but not taught in such specifics as it is now. Ever since I learned about these promises I've wondered why we don't teach this to kids more as part of a rigorous baptismal preparation. If it's such a serious covenant, we shouldn't be treating it so casually - or at least approaching it as something we just do in the church almost without thinking about it- getting baptized automatically at age eight just because everyone else does.

[Hemidakota]

Knowing the policy of the church is to baptized children at the age of eight, I would still wait, when they received a desire for themselves to be baptized.

[Moksha]

Age 8 is the age of accountability.

How did this come to be, when so many other places use the ages of 18 or 21 in this determination of accountability? I know among the Jews, the age of accountability is 13 for boys and 12 for girls with their respective Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs.

The number eight does come into play in that infant boys are circumcised on the eighth day.

The Baha'i faith goes with the age fifteen as the age of responsibility. In China, twenty is the designated age. Japan also uses age twenty. In Vietnam it is age eighteen for girls and twenty for boys. In South Africa it is 21 while in the Philippines it is 18.

Using age eight makes it ten years earlier than even high school graduation.

[carlimac]

How did this come to be, when so many other places use the ages of 18 or 21 in this determination of accountability? I know among the Jews, the age of accountability is 13 for boys and 12 for girls with their respective Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs.

The number eight does come into play in that infant boys are circumcised on the eighth day.

The Baha'i faith goes with the age fifteen as the age of responsibility. In China, twenty is the designated age. Japan also uses age twenty. In Vietnam it is age eighteen for girls and twenty for boys. In South Africa it is 21 while in the Philippines it is 18.

Using age eight makes it ten years earlier than even high school graduation.

Well if we waited that long, there would cetainly be more sins to be washed away.

[Traveler]

In Moroni 8:8 it says, "wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin.."

So why is there so much emphasis in Primary about children's sins being washed away when they are baptized at the age of eight? For example, I think of the song in "I Love to Look For Rainbows" which is a pretty little song, but technically, isn't it teaching an incorrect principle in the line, "I know when I am baptized, my wrongs are washed away"?

One important principle that you are missing is that parents are responsible for the sins of the children prior to them becoming of the age of accountability. Failure of a parent to teach a child and prepare them for baptism is something that they must answer to before G-d. I would strongly suggest that as parents we take every opportunity – including family home evening, family prayer and in every way provide example and encouragement for our children to be baptized at age 8. The parents that think they will force their children to wait until they know exactly what they want to do concerning baptism are putting themselves at risk, as much as or more so than they are putting their children at risk.

I taught my children and prepared them for baptism at age 8. Some of my children have had problems with their covenants since then – but I have made it clear to them that what I taught them and prepared them for was the right thing. What they do with it now is on their ticket but I love them and desire that they keep their covenants even as I do.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

How did this come to be, when so many other places use the ages of 18 or 21 in this determination of accountability? I know among the Jews, the age of accountability is 13 for boys and 12 for girls with their respective Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs.

The number eight does come into play in that infant boys are circumcised on the eighth day.

The Baha'i faith goes with the age fifteen as the age of responsibility. In China, twenty is the designated age. Japan also uses age twenty. In Vietnam it is age eighteen for girls and twenty for boys. In South Africa it is 21 while in the Philippines it is 18.

Using age eight makes it ten years earlier than even high school graduation.

Ask the Savior, why He made this policy....

[carlimac]

One important principle that you are missing is that parents are responsible for the sins of the children prior to them becoming of the age of accountability. Failure of a parent to teach a child and prepare them for baptism is something that they must answer to before G-d. I would strongly suggest that as parents we take every opportunity – including family home evening, family prayer and in every way provide example and encouragement for our children to be baptized at age 8. The parents that think they will force their children to wait until they know exactly what they want to do concerning baptism are putting themselves at risk, as much as or more so than they are putting their children at risk.

I taught my children and prepared them for baptism at age 8. Some of my children have had problems with their covenants since then – but I have made it clear to them that what I taught them and prepared them for was the right thing. What they do with it now is on their ticket but I love them and desire that they keep their covenants even as I do.

The Traveler

Hmmm. The way you worded that doesn't quite jive for me. How can parents absorb their children's sins? Does it work retroactively? I fully agree that we are responsible for teaching them while they are young. But even with the best, most concientious teaching, little kids still mess up. Sometimes the teaching just doesn't "take". This is probably where the atonement comes in. Parents can only do so much teaching and exemplifying. We can't force our kids to do the right thing all the time. Does the agency principle not kick in till they are eight?

So my original point was that if little chldren truely are incapable of sin, why do we teach them that their sins are washed away at baptism? They wouldn't have any sins to be washed away. Older people would have plenty but not barely 8 yr olds.

It's all a mind game anyway. We could make ourselves crazy trying to figure it all out. I just want to be sure I'm teaching my kids the right principle and not make them feel the heavy weight of sin where it's not necessary. Nor do I want them to feel like they have been bad little persons before their baptism. I think it's just that song that bugs me. I always have a hard time singing the second verse- so I usually just dont.

[Guest]

You're right. We can't fully understand.

What I should have said was that I wasn't really aware that Mosiah 18: 8-10 was part of the baptismal covenant till I was an adult.

8 ...", as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?"

That's a pretty big commitment to be making at age 8. I think kids can understand it in a very elementary way. But it really isn't emphasized in Primary or any of the songs they sing about baptism. They sing generally about "trying to be like Jesus" but not in relation to an actual covenant we are making to do these specific things after being baptized. I honestly heard nothing about this prior to my baptism. I felt sort of stupid (having been a life long member) when I did learn about it in terms of it being "what we promise at baptism". I thought...I promised that? Not that I wouldn't gladly do those things anyway, but I honeslty had never heard of that particular aspect of baptism before. (Sheesh- what else don't I know? ) Maybe it's a relatively new emphasis in the church. The scripture reference has always been there but not taught in such specifics as it is now. Ever since I learned about these promises I've wondered why we don't teach this to kids more as part of a rigorous baptismal preparation. If it's such a serious covenant, we shouldn't be treating it so casually - or at least approaching it as something we just do in the church almost without thinking about it- getting baptized automatically at age eight just because everyone else does.

Not sure what's going on in your ward. In my ward, I'm the CTR 8 primary teacher. That is, I teach children who are turning 8 this year. And the lessons are pretty clear on these points. The lessons are also very clear that the requirements for baptism is not ONLY turning 8. You can't get baptized even if you're already 8 if you don't understand the other requirements...

And, the lessons are clear that one of the requirements is to REPENT and forgive others. So, yeah, even when you're just turning 8 - you still need to repent. And yes, that ties into the When I am Baptized song. Ever since they were in sunbeam, these kids have been learning Choose The Right, Return To Christ. Just because they're not 8 yet, doesn't mean they don't do WRONG. When they turn 8, they're expected to KNOW that they've done wrong - hence, the need to repent, hence the need for the wrongs to be washed away.

Edited May 6, 2010 by anatess

[Maureen]

...And, the lessons are clear that one of the requirements is to REPENT and forgive others. So, yeah, even when you're just turning 8 - you still need to repent. And yes, that ties into the When I am Baptized song. Ever since they were in sunbeam, these kids have been learning Choose The Right, Return To Christ. Just because they're not 8 yet, doesn't mean they don't do WRONG. When they turn 8, they're expected to KNOW that they've done wrong - hence, the need to repent, hence the need for the wrongs to be washed away.

So if a child is not accountable for their wrond-doings until they're 8 years old, how can you repent about something you were not responsible for prior to turning 8. Many kids get baptized days or a few months after turning 8. What are they possibly repenting of? How is this that much different than other religions baptizing babies when you look at with the intent of washing away sin - what sin?

M.

[Guest]

So if a child is not accountable for their wrond-doings until they're 8 years old, how can you repent about something you were not responsible for prior to turning 8. Many kids get baptized days or a few months after turning 8. What are they possibly repenting of? How is this that much different than other religions baptizing babies when you look at with the intent of washing away sin - what sin?

M.

The difference, Maureen, is that when you are baptized before you understand what repentance means, you cannot possibly have repented for your wrongdoings. And, if you are baptized without understanding what your covenants are, then you cannot possibly meet them.

NOBODY ever said you cannot do wrong before you turn 8. What the articles of faith say is that you are not responsible for OTHER PEOPLE'S transgressions - especially Adam's. If a child commits murder at age 7, he obviously has made a very serious wrongdoing. But, since one cannot be expected to understand what constitutes a sin when one is under the age of 8, then he cannot be judged for it. When he understands what repentance means, he can repent for any wrongdoing he has done.

Perhaps this article will help:

Sins and Mistakes

There's a section there on kids...

[Traveler]

Hmmm. The way you worded that doesn't quite jive for me. How can parents absorb their children's sins? Does it work retroactively? I fully agree that we are responsible for teaching them while they are young. But even with the best, most concientious teaching, little kids still mess up. Sometimes the teaching just doesn't "take". This is probably where the atonement comes in. Parents can only do so much teaching and exemplifying. We can't force our kids to do the right thing all the time. Does the agency principle not kick in till they are eight?

So my original point was that if little chldren truely are incapable of sin, why do we teach them that their sins are washed away at baptism? They wouldn't have any sins to be washed away. Older people would have plenty but not barely 8 yr olds.

It's all a mind game anyway. We could make ourselves crazy trying to figure it all out. I just want to be sure I'm teaching my kids the right principle and not make them feel the heavy weight of sin where it's not necessary. Nor do I want them to feel like they have been bad little persons before their baptism. I think it's just that song that bugs me. I always have a hard time singing the second verse- so I usually just dont.

D&C 68: 25

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

So if a child is not accountable for their wrond-doings until they're 8 years old, how can you repent about something you were not responsible for prior to turning 8. Many kids get baptized days or a few months after turning 8. What are they possibly repenting of? How is this that much different than other religions baptizing babies when you look at with the intent of washing away sin - what sin?

M.

I had to wait for one child at the right old age of 10-years old to be baptized.

[Hemidakota]

Looking at Doctrine and Covenants section 68, at the November Conference of 1831, the Lord placed directly upon parents the responsibility of teaching children faith in Christ, the doctrine of repentance, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the time they are eight years old (D&C 68:25). It is sin not to do so (D&C 68:25).

While working on his inspired revision of Genesis, the Prophet Joseph Smith had learned that children are not accountable before the Lord until they are eight years old (JST, Gen. 17:11). Now, some seven to ten months later, the Lord reaffirmed through his Prophet the doctrine associated with the age of accountability. (New Testament Commentary, 3:498) Thus parents have an opportunity to teach their children both about the gospel and how to apply the gospel during the years of their lives in which they are not accountable to God for their actions. In another revelation the Lord revealed;

But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten; wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me; For it is given unto them even as I will, according to mine own pleasure, that great things may be required at the hands of their fathers" (D&C 29:46-48).

To understand that Satan cannot tempt little children during the years in which they are not accountable to God for their actions identifies the significance of the role of parents and the home in the training of children.

President Spencer W. Kimball has written:

There is no guarantee, of course, that righteous parents will succeed always in holding their children, and certainly they may lose them if they do not do all in their power. The children have their free agency. But if we as parents fail to influence our families and set them on the "strait and narrow way," then certainly the waves, the winds of temptation and evil will carry the posterity away from the path. "Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it" (Proverbs 22:6). What we do know is that righteous parents who strive to develop wholesome influences for their children will be held blameless at the last day, and that they will succeed in saving most of their children, if not all.

[see 'Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1 - The Doctrine and Covenants' by Robert L. Millet, Kent P. Jackson]

[carlimac]

D&C 68: 25

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

The Traveler

I understand this. I said I agreed we need to teach them. And if we don't teach them, then we as parents are at fault. But I'm posing a different scenario. I'm talking about when we DO teach and they STILL mess up. (Which is more likely the case than not. No matter how much you tell a kid not to lie or steal, some of them are going to do it anyway. ) How are we then still responsible for their actions? Like I said before, we can't FORCE kids to behave. That's Satans way. Sometimes kids just have to learn the hard way- by making mistakes, making poor choices and then learning the consequences.

So say we have done all the teaching possible, kid messes up anyway, kid never quite learns what we're trying to teach, Kid dies tragically somehow before turning 8 and being baptized. Are the parents still supposed to carry the kid's mistakes into eternity? I don't think it's that cut and dried. I think our Father in Heaven is much more compassionate than that. There are still unpaid dues when the kid dies- parents may not even know what they are. The only one to take them on would be Jesus Christ, in my viewpoint.

LIke I said, mind games. All we can do is our best. I don't think it's a good idea to heap guilt on kids or parents. Life is a learning process and lots and lots of mistakes will be made, sins committed, even by well meaning parents. I think the Lord will take our individual cases into consideration on judgement day and I think He will be loving and fair.

Back to my OP- I just don't like the image that might be in some kids heads on baptism day that they have done all these bad things for 8 years and now they have to be washed away. I think a better approach with children is downplay the "washing away sins" part , but to teach them that they are following the Savior's example by being baptized and that baptism is necessary to enter God's kingdom(to become a member of His church) And from that point on, they need to repent after committing sins and help them to understand how the atonement can work for them. Also teach them the pro-active approach of reaching out to people who need help and comfort. That will come more naturally to some than others. But if it's part of our baptismal covenant, and kids realize the seriousness of covenants in the first place, maybe it would help with problems like bullying, cheating, oh- the list is so long of all the rotten stuff kids are capable of doing. Maybe it would help, maybe not.

Edited May 7, 2010 by carlimac

[Moksha]

Eight year olds act so childish.

[Wingnut]

In Moroni 8:8 it says, "wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin.."

So why is there so much emphasis in Primary about children's sins being washed away when they are baptized at the age of eight? For example, I think of the song in "I Love to Look For Rainbows" which is a pretty little song, but technically, isn't it teaching an incorrect principle in the line, "I know when I am baptized, my wrongs are washed away"?

I don't think it's incorrect or misleading at all. It's teaching a correct principle on a level that an eight-year-old (or a little younger or a little older) can appropriately understand. Also, while a child younger than eight may or may not be capable of sinning, s/he is certainly capable of making "wrong" choices.