Why Are Mormon Church Meetings So Dull?

[Matthew0059]

So, it's okay to blame one person for the Spirit leaving even if their intentions are good?

Depends on the situation. If a person does something that offends the Spirit, and the Spirit leaves... then yes, it's that person's fault. Their intentions may be noble, but the result is the same.

If someone is blaming how close (s)he is to the Spirit on anyone else, (s)he's in trouble. However, when we're talking about group settings, one person's actions can drive away the Spirit for the whole group for a short time. Personally, I find that I may have to remove myself from the setting to regain the Spirit's presence when this occurs.

Didn't know a member of the Godhead was so fickle.

No unclean thing can enter the presence of God. In that sense, the FATHER and CHRIST- the greatest of all- are the most "fickle" beings in existence.

I don't think I need to say much here.

I meant I was unaware of the exact physical mechanics of how this happens, and that I am not an expert on the finer points of the issue. I did not mean to infer that I actually have zero idea of what we're discussing.

While I believe something similar, I don't use the same terms. I can tell if a person has a good soul or bad soul when they are near me. I don't use the words clean/unclean because using that just dehumanizes the person and tries to rack guilt onto them. Something that isn't healthy for anyone.

Perhaps you should take this issue up with the LORD, as "clean" and "unclean" are commonly used to describe the state of men's souls.

EDIT: I am also not in the habit of declaring anyone "unclean". We are speaking in the theoretical. However, when the theoretical becomes practical application, the principles hold true. It is the hard truth that every day everyone does something that requires them to be cleansed by the Atonement- even if it's merely existing. Every innocent newborn baby child needs the cleansing power of the Atonement. This fact is not de-humanizing when understood.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Matthew0059

[Moksha]

Yes, the SPIRIT can be that fickle. For example, any unclean person entering the temple defiles the whole temple. I am not aware of the specifics of how it works, and one can definitely feel the SPIRIT while an unclean person is in the general vicinity.

You might need to turn down the vibrato, attenuate the spiritual seeking signal, while concurrently turning the human affinity knob to maximum.

[Suzie]

For example, any unclean person entering the temple defiles the whole temple.

So we are all making sacred covenants in defiled temples then (according to your statement).

[Snow]

When one listener refuses to listen, it affects the Spirit for all.

How do you make the roll eyes thingamijobby?

[Snow]

Yes, the SPIRIT can be that fickle. For example, any unclean person entering the temple defiles the whole temple. I am not aware of the specifics of how it works, and one can definitely feel the SPIRIT while an unclean person is in the general vicinity.

I bet that is not true. I bet that I could dress up a woman chasing boozer in a nice suit and well groomed trim, put a BoM in his hand about you wouldn't have a clue.

[Guest The_Doctor]

I won't deny that a large part of it has to do with the Spirit. But a lay ministry doesn't have the same training that a pastor that has gone through seminary does. Those people are taught, in addition to other things, how to be an interesting speaker. And if a person can't focus on a person using a microphone, how do you expect them to listen to a small, quiet voice?

[Snow]

So we are all making sacred covenants in defiled temples then (according to your statement).

Oh no. Since the mid 70's all temples have been equipped with spirometers and defilometers.

Whenever a defiler enters the room an alarm is trigger - a high pitched "ssssssiiiiiinnnnnneeeeerrrr" and a hazmat cleanup crew is deployed.

[UrbanFool]

Like in Logan's Run?

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes, the SPIRIT can be that fickle. For example, any unclean person entering the temple defiles the whole temple.

I'm not sure I can jump on board with this, simply because I take a pretty dim view of humanity--even, generally speaking, Church members--and if the above were true, I doubt we'd have a single temple in the Church that the Lord was still willing to call His own.

It seems to me that the body-as-a-temple (and vice-versa) analogy holds up here: as long as the one responsible for managing the temple is making a sincere effort to keep it clean, the Lord honors the effort and sanctifies the tabernacle. If the Church stops trying to make the temple a holy place, it will cease to be so.

I do, however, subscribe to the idea that when we see someone in the temple whom we personally know to not be living in accordance with the standards the Lord has set, the resulting conflict of feelings can drive away the Spirit on a personal level. I am also disinclined to deny the gifts of the Spirit in our day--if someone knows through the gift of discernment (or just plain old-fashioned, first-hand knowledge) that someone else who is in the temple shouldn't be there--sure, I'd say that could drive out the Spirit for that person.

But I don't think the Lord generally applies a legalistic one-bad-apple-spoils-the-bunch approach to temple patrons.

[kileyizzle]

IMHO - you get what you give.

If you turn up to church in a huff and are in a terrible mood it won't be a good meeting. If you turn up smiling and with an open mind your likely to take something away from it.

Pray before you go - so you can let in the spirit.

I'm a convert 2 yrs now. And so far in my experience - Take a notebook - write notes, relate to the topics at hand - if you can't relate ponder the words and see what you can work on. Read the scriptures.

You never know when you might get something from these talks EVER.

I went to a fireside last week and the speaker said - Refusing change is like spitting on the atonement. We can't stay the same otherwise we dnt grow.

Exploit your agency - you choose how you percieve things good or bad. Aim for good.

[justaname]

Its interesting hearing people talking about good speakers vs. bad speakers, and professional ministry vs. lay ministry. Lots of times I listen to speakers in sacrament meeting that many people would classify as a good or great speaker, and I find myself bored with their talk or completely turned off. Not because I think they are a bad speaker, but more because it appears they are up there loving the fact they get to hear their own voice over the pulpit and get to put in their own .02 about the gospel. When I hear most professional ministry, Im struck by this same impression that these individuals love to hear themselves talk. Sometimes though, you get a talented speaker who is humble about their gift and gives a great talk.

On occasion, I get more out of the "bad" speakers than I do the "good" ones. Sure, they dont have a gift like others do, but I have listened to some who are so unassuming and so humble, that their message is conveyed in a way that a "good" speaker wouldnt be able to do. There is nothing quite like seeing the old farmers or blue collar guys get up and testify about simple truths that others miss.

[Boris_natasha]

Yes, the SPIRIT can be that fickle. For example, any unclean person entering the temple defiles the whole temple. I am not aware of the specifics of how it works, and one can definitely feel the SPIRIT while an unclean person is in the general vicinity. However, the impression felt may be weakened or harder to understand. Ultimately, one's reception to the SPIRIT is a matter of personal worthiness- yet there is a reason the Saints have been told time and time again to get themselves out of "the world".

Adjust your frequencies. You may not be tuning in to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not fickle. Thank goodness. Or else no one would ever feel its presence.

[Jmidgley]

I find this much more than something I have said in the past. Yes I have said, "what a boring meeting." Upon thinking about many of these times later on I have realized the great message in "these boring meetings." It would seem to me that this individual has put very much thought into this message, who then felt it important to post such a negative comment on the internet. As someone who is struggling I can only feel sorrow for this individual as I am sure there is a great underlying cause to the feelings that have been portrayed. I have often had similar feelings toward church meetings but later realized as some of you said before, that I am not bringing anything to the meeting i.e. the spirit. I have a long way to go in my own struggle but as I feel I am finally climbing instead of falling, it is amazing how much love God puts in your heart. Too often I was quick to judge in my life as I am now often thinking of my neighbor with love and compassion. I can only hope, and pray that whatever is going on in that persons life that he/she will be able to work it out in the end because it seems to me like the adversary has got a hold.

[rameumptom]

No offense, but is the Spirit really that fickle? Is the actions of one person really going to make the Spirit leave or change for everyone in that room?n

It isn't that the Spirit is fickle. But it is a quiet whisper. Those who are not spiritually prepared will not teach by the Spirit, nor hear it as a listener. D&C 50 tells us that we must teach and listen by the Spirit. And if not by the Spirit, we are doing it from some other way.

And yes, the Spirit can be driven away. The Book of Mormon tells us about many groups of people who became beyond feeling, and the Spirit (and the 3 Disciples) were withdrawn from them.

For the new convert, who is just learning about the Spirit, would you rather someone teaching with the power of the Spirit, or just their own knowledge and understanding? Elder Holland discussed this very thing in his talk, A Teacher Come From God.

He noted:

President Spencer W. Kimball once pled: "Stake presidents, bishops, and branch presidents, please take a particular interest in improving the quality of teaching in the Church. ... I fear," he said, "that all too often many of our members come to church, sit through a class or a meeting, and ... then return home having been largely [uninspired]. It is especially unfortunate when this happens at a time ... of stress, temptation, or crisis [in their life]. We all need to be touched and nurtured by the Spirit," he said, "and effective teaching is one of the most important ways this can happen. We often do vigorous work," President Kimball concluded, "to get members to come to Church but then do not adequately watch over what they receive when they do come." 9 On this subject President Hinckley himself has said, "Effective teaching is the very essence of leadership in the Church." May I repeat that. "Effective teaching is the very essence of leadership in the Church. Eternal life," President Hinckley continued, "will come only as men and women are taught with such effectiveness that they change and discipline their lives. They cannot be coerced into righteousness or into heaven. They must be led, and that means teaching."

In all of this we must remember that the Lord has never given more emphatic counsel to the Church than that we are to teach the gospel "by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth."

Do we teach the gospel "by the Spirit of truth?" He has inquired. Or do we teach it "some other way? And if it be by some other way," He warns, "it is not of God." 13 In language echoing other commandments, He has said, "If ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach." 14

No eternal learning can take place without that quickening of the Spirit from heaven. So, parents, teachers, and leaders, we must face our tasks the way Moses faced the promised land. Knowing he could not succeed any other way, Moses said to Jehovah, "If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence." 15

That is what our members really want when they gather in a meeting or come into a classroom anyway. Most people don't come to church looking merely for a few new gospel facts or to see old friends, though all of that is important. They come seeking a spiritual experience.

They want peace. They want their faith fortified and their hope renewed. They want, in short, to be nourished by the good word of God, to be strengthened by the powers of heaven. Those of us who are called upon to speak or teach or lead have an obligation to help provide that, as best we possibly can. We can only do that if we ourselves are striving to know God, if we ourselves are continually seeking the light of His Only Begotten Son.

Then, if our hearts are right, if we are as clean as we can be, if we have prayed and wept and prepared and worried until we don't know what more we can do, God can say to us as He did to Alma and the sons of Mosiah: "Lift up thy head and rejoice. ... I will give unto you success." 16

We do have a legitimate worry about the new member, wanting each one to stay with us and enjoy the full blessings of the Church. I am just simple enough to think that if we continue to teach them—with the same Christlike spirit, conviction, doctrine, and personal interest the missionaries have shown them—new converts will not only stay with us but, quite literally, could not be kept away.

The need for continuing such solid teaching is obvious. In times like ours we all need what Mormon called "the virtue of the word of God" because, he said, it "had [a] more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them." 17 When crises come in our lives—and they will—the philosophies of men interlaced with a few scriptures and poems just won't do. Are we really nurturing our youth and our new members in a way that will sustain them when the stresses of life appear? Or are we giving them a kind of theological Twinkie—spiritually empty calories?

So, YES I think the Spirit can be kept away from a meeting, simply due to a few members' actions or choices.

[rameumptom]

I bet that is not true. I bet that I could dress up a woman chasing boozer in a nice suit and well groomed trim, put a BoM in his hand about you wouldn't have a clue.

I think your statements are useless here, Snow. You are not giving any real discussion. It may be that a person filled with the Spirit could distinguish the fraud - if the Lord chose to do so. For example, Acts 5 tells of Ananias and Sapphira trying to cheat the Lord out of offerings, but Peter sensed it by the Spirit. So, I guess in the right context and with the right Spirit, you were just proven wrong.

Now, if you wish to return to the discussion, how about actually discussing it, instead of the insults and ridiculous claims?

[rameumptom]

Its interesting hearing people talking about good speakers vs. bad speakers, and professional ministry vs. lay ministry. Lots of times I listen to speakers in sacrament meeting that many people would classify as a good or great speaker, and I find myself bored with their talk or completely turned off. Not because I think they are a bad speaker, but more because it appears they are up there loving the fact they get to hear their own voice over the pulpit and get to put in their own .02 about the gospel. When I hear most professional ministry, Im struck by this same impression that these individuals love to hear themselves talk. Sometimes though, you get a talented speaker who is humble about their gift and gives a great talk.

On occasion, I get more out of the "bad" speakers than I do the "good" ones. Sure, they dont have a gift like others do, but I have listened to some who are so unassuming and so humble, that their message is conveyed in a way that a "good" speaker wouldnt be able to do. There is nothing quite like seeing the old farmers or blue collar guys get up and testify about simple truths that others miss.

I guess we need a definition of good vs bad speakers. In such a discussion, a "good" speaker is one that carries the Spirit in the talk. A bad speaker is anyone who does not, even if they are eloquent.

I knew a sister years ago who was extremely eloquent, and would knock the socks off of people throughout the stake with her lessons about how the Lord had worked with her and how wonderful she was. She took sacred experiences and threw them out for anyone and everyone to hear - even pearls before swine. But she did not impress me, as I never felt the Spirit in her talks. She was not only a bad speaker, but a very bad speaker, because she was not teaching what the Spirit wanted taught, and led many into a worship of her rather than the Christ.

[Suzie]

I knew a sister years ago who was extremely eloquent, and would knock the socks off of people throughout the stake with her lessons about how the Lord had worked with her and how wonderful she was. She took sacred experiences and threw them out for anyone and everyone to hear - even pearls before swine. But she did not impress me, as I never felt the Spirit in her talks. She was not only a bad speaker, but a very bad speaker, because she was not teaching what the Spirit wanted taught, and led many into a worship of her rather than the Christ.

Just curious, and how do you know she was not teaching what the Spirit wanted taught? I am pretty sure if we ask several members in that same class, they would say they felt the Spirit in her class. Same goes for some of Elder Dunn's talks (fabricated stories) and others who share stories that are either self centered or even fake, however many people testify of the Spirit feeling so "strong".

I know what you are saying because I have felt many times like that in similar situations and I wonder if as members of the church we can truly separate the feelings of our own emotions and the one of the Spirit.

[crazypotato]

Just curious, and how do you know she was not teaching what the Spirit wanted taught? I am pretty sure if we ask several members in that same class, they would say they felt the Spirit in her class. Same goes for some of Elder Dunn's talks (fabricated stories) and others who share stories that are either self centered or even fake, however many people testify of the Spirit feeling so "strong".

I know what you are saying because I have felt many times like that in similar situations and I wonder if as members of the church we can truly separate the feelings of our own emotions and the one of the Spirit.

That is why the Spirit is personal. I can't say whether someone else is feeling it or not, but I can tell with myself whether it is emotions or the Spirit, because of years of practice. We should do our best to prepare ourselves, and then be praying for our teachesr and speakers as well, rather than finding fault with them.

Edited July 23, 2010 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

I won't deny that a large part of it has to do with the Spirit. But a lay ministry doesn't have the same training that a pastor that has gone through seminary does. Those people are taught, in addition to other things, how to be an interesting speaker. And if a person can't focus on a person using a microphone, how do you expect them to listen to a small, quiet voice?

IMHO, many saints attribute far too much too the supposed intensive training that we ministers receive in public speaking. I had one course in homilectics, and the focus was much more on the content of our lessons than on our speaking style. You would get more instruction on the physical dynamics of public speaking in a public speaking class at a community college, or even through Toastmasters, than you would get in a seminary homilectics course.

On the other hand, there is indeed intensive training in lesson preparation. Prayer, seeking God's counsel, studying the Scriptures, learning to recognize when another passage might relate, learning to weed out our own opinions. And then, there's the reality that most weeks the same person is speaking. Practice does make the good better, and the mediocre pretty good.

None of that to suggest our way is the only way. Just want to dispel the notion that we have magic good speaking pills, or that our training is some type of intensive focus on speaking itself.

[applepansy]

I wonder if as members of the church we can truly separate the feelings of our own emotions and the one of the Spirit.

I don't know about anyone else. It has taken me many years of practice but I'm beginning to decern between the when the Spirit speaks to me and when its just my brain working overtime.

There is a distinct difference and I believe that many members feel that diffference.

[Snow]

I think your statements are useless here, Snow. You are not giving any real discussion. It may be that a person filled with the Spirit could distinguish the fraud - if the Lord chose to do so. For example, Acts 5 tells of Ananias and Sapphira trying to cheat the Lord out of offerings, but Peter sensed it by the Spirit. So, I guess in the right context and with the right Spirit, you were just proven wrong.

Now, if you wish to return to the discussion, how about actually discussing it, instead of the insults and ridiculous claims?

Point of clarification: YOU think that my statements are useless but so what - you don't get to silence people just cuz you don't like what they have to say. You are not the arbiter of what is useful or not; and my claims - that people can't or at least don't (generally) magically detect sinners - are far from ridiculous. That people CAN'T supernaturally detect sinners is the de facto position and claims that they can calls for proof. It your claim that is, short of proof, ridiculous.

Perhaps that makes you feel queasy and uncomfortable so you seek to put a label on it and dismiss it but it is part of a legitimate discussion regardless of what you want.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Snow

[beckysoup61]

Perhaps you should take this issue up with the LORD, as "clean" and "unclean" are commonly used to describe the state of men's souls.

.

Thus why I'm no longer practicing Mormonism.

[Snow]

Thus why I'm no longer practicing Mormonism.

What's why you are no longer a practicing Mormon? Could you explain?

[beckysoup61]

What's why you are no longer a practicing Mormon? Could you explain?

Many things are a reason I'm no longer practicing, each as equally important as the last. I was tired of people telling me I was wrong, evil, unclean, etc. when I knew in my heart I wasn't. I was tired of people passing judgment when only their Creator can do that.

That's one out of many reasons.

[prisonchaplain]

If I strive to comfort the people and teach them of God's love and mercy, I may foster a people who are "saved, but unrighteous." If I strive to raise people up in righteousness, good works and a holy awe of Almighty God, I may raise up Pharisaical, self-righteous snobs, who look like Jesus, but are cold on the inside. Lord help us find that love and holiness can feed one another, rather than be on constant competition!