They lie in wait to deceive

[Maya]

I been around on the internett for some 10 years defending the LDS Church. During this time I heve noticed a few changes in the way antimormons work.

First was the demand of calling those who question the Church for critics not anties. Calling anties critics has lowered the stabdard of critics a lot. There are some respectable critics who question the teachings of LDS, but some "critics" dont deserve that name. Why not? I think the biggest difference is that a critic listens to the answers and go on from them, while an anti keeps repeating himself.

Second the attacs are not so filled with direct hate and dispice as before. Instead the antifront has adopted a much more undirect form: The wolves in sheep clothing. It is not weird as netsites like this ban people directly hostile to our religion right away, so tehy really dont get anywhere with this hostality. But today is tolerance IN. IF the request of "tolerance" is not reached they will scream in loud voice that we, LDS, are not allowing the freedom of word! In the world of today that is considered a very bad thing not to be able to write what one wishes, question what one wishes. Is it nessesary... is it nessessary to question things about LDS on an LDS discusition?

Ofcourse anyone can have questions... the problem here is you NEVER know if the questions are asked by someone who is here in order to NOT TO find out the answer, but to spread confusion. Once read words are difficult to brush away. Ofcourse these people are the innocense themselves!

It is too bad there really is not anythign we can do to protect peopel fex on this forum from those wolves. We know they are there. They lie in wait to decieve.

How ever there IS somethings YOU can do.

One; if a subject of a thread feels wrong... go to read something else

Two; STUDY the BASICS. Dull? Done it so many times? Yes it may be so, but IF you have a smallest doubt of anythig of the basics you have a problem.

Three; Read scriptures, and pray, you will find the answer.

Four; Froget yourself and serve others, strengthen others so you wilol be strengthened.

In order to find answers search/read

LDS.org scriptures search with words.

Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home

Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum

ask Contacting FAIR

FAIR wikipedia is good for those who can handle a bit harder stuff.

In the world of today we mods are trying to keep the discusition sites nice, but we do need YOUR help. So when ever you see a questionable post, blogg PLEASE help us and click on the red flag on the right site of the post and let us know why you think it was not a nice post. Remember what this netsite is like depends on YOU. We also want to know what you think about LDS.net. What can we do better (NO NAMES OR FINGER POINTS!) Even though it is not allowed to critizise the mods we stil can take some suggestiones that can make the site better... I hope...

I see that the LDS.neters have become more and more questioning of the basic beliefs trough some stuff that is not important at all... but that some manage to make sound as the most important thigs in LDS theology.

In the end... KEEP STRONG! I heard it all ... but 99% is just lies!

[Traveler]

My friends that work at the Church offices tell me that in the last 10 years that we LDS have become less liked than previously. According to studies the reason is not because of anything members are doing but because of criticism from other religious groups. The view of most LDS is that the criticism not well founded.

This means that despite the openness of individuals like PC. That in general the gap between LDS and other religious groups is increasing. I am not sure if this is something we should expect and except or attempt to do something.

The Traveler

[GADBabaganoosh]

They can never just leave the church alone ever. I think it's fair to say, that we need to pick our battles carefully. Don't go to anti mormon websites and try to convince them, it just won't work. In fact, I don't think interaction with anti-mormons is very productive, since the majority of them won't want to have anything to do with the church. Why try to reel them in? Hearts can become much too hard. There is the off chance that they come to to christ. I met a guy who was a member on my mission who used to be a hardcore anti. Although he was never a member and went apostate, he was just a hostile protestant. Its definitely an exception, not a rule. I think the best thing we can do rather than contend with Anti Mormons, is to focus our efforts on being disciples of Christ, and sharing the gospel with those who are prepared to hear it. Sharing with those who are humble and willing to repent, that they can come to Christ, is the goal of the church. Our time is much more valuable, spent in this endeavor.

[ADoyle90815]

They can never just leave the church alone ever. I think it's fair to say, that we need to pick our battles carefully. Don't go to anti mormon websites and try to convince them, it just won't work. In fact, I don't think interaction with anti-mormons is very productive, since the majority of them won't want to have anything to do with the church. Why try to reel them in? Hearts can become much too hard. There is the off chance that they come to to christ. I met a guy who was a member on my mission who used to be a hardcore anti. Although he was never a member and went apostate, he was just a hostile protestant. Its definitely an exception, not a rule. I think the best thing we can do rather than contend with Anti Mormons, is to focus our efforts on being disciples of Christ, and sharing the gospel with those who are prepared to hear it. Sharing with those who are humble and willing to repent, that they can come to Christ, is the goal of the church. Our time is much more valuable, spent in this endeavor.

That's not necessarily true of all who leave the LDS church, as I've met people who are former LDS, but you wouldn't know it as they have actually left the church alone after they had their names removed from the records. Often, someone like that has family who are still active, and they even go to a baptism of a family member to support them. They also show up for pictures outside the temple after a wedding without complaining about missing the actual ceremony.

Edited December 4, 2010 by ADoyle90815

[GADBabaganoosh]

Fair enough. Not all exmormons are anti. But to be fair, some of the most vocal and angry anti's were once mormon.

[Elphaba]

I think some perspective is warranted. The Church's reputation is very good among the US population, whereas for over a hundred years it was despised.

Today some of our highest elected officials, on both sides of the aisle, are Mormon. There is even a strong possibility a Mormon will be the Republican nominee for president. Even if he fails, he already is considered a valid contender.

I know no one in the COB, and obviously they have information I don't, so maybe I'm painting too rosy a picture. I just know that, from a historical perspective, the Church's reputation is anything but declining, and I think that should be acknowledged. Not doing so perpetuates a "persecution" stereotype that is no longer valid.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Fair enough. Not all exmormons are anti. But to be fair, some of the most vocal and angry anti's were once mormon.

I think this is true of angry anti-Mormons, but not of most anti-Mormons period--at least that's my perception.

My observation is that there is a very vocal anti/ex-Mormon presence but it is mostly on the internet and not terribly large. (I suppose it could be argued that even though it's small, the internet expands its scope beyond its numbers, and I would agree with that.) It consistently attracts other ex-Mormons, but few never-Mormons.

However, the Evangelical anti-Mormon movement is extremely strong both on, and off, the internet, and far surpasses the anti/ex-Mormon presence--it reaches people with no connection to the Church whatsoever.

Again, that's my perception. If you have credible statistics stating otherwise, I'd consider them.

Elphaba

[bert10]

Events and conditions such as economy, disasters of all kinds which breads hate, anger, mistrust etc in the last will force people to be bound to their like...in other words...Anglicans will band together with other Anglicans etc.

I call this Bundling...and the ties that make each bundle secure will be their beliefs.

And these ties over time will become as strong as bands of steel. So with Love of man decreasing with each passing day we will see cracks between people and and nations if we expand our viewpoint...become great gulfs.

This is required for it is written that after God has bundled up the wicked...the bundles shall be thrown in the fire.

bert10

My friends that work at the Church offices tell me that in the last 10 years that we LDS have become less liked than previously. According to studies the reason is not because of anything members are doing but because of criticism from other religious groups. The view of most LDS is that the criticism not well founded.

This means that despite the openness of individuals like PC. That in general the gap between LDS and other religious groups is increasing. I am not sure if this is something we should expect and except or attempt to do something.

The Traveler

[bytebear]

I think a couple things have changed things in the world of anti-Mormonism. First is the church's growth. The LDS Church is now the fourth largest denomination in the US, and in the next 10-20 years, it will surpass Methodists and Baptists and be second only to Catholics. Second, the internet has allowed anti-Mormon rhetoric to flow to the masses (i.e. YouTube Cartoons).

Really, it started with that "banned" cartoon. THe GodMakers film was the first mass anti-Mormon film to hit the evangelical base. Created decades ago, it still is used in sound bites to slander LDS doctrines (i.e. Spirit babies, magic underwear and celestial sex), none of which are true descriptions of LDS belief or practice.

But the growth of the church and the internet also has a counter effect. Back in the 80s, a typical evangelical believed and taught that Mormons did not believe in Jesus, didn't use the Bible, and worshiped Joseph Smith. Today, it's a "different" Jesus and lip service to the Bible. So the message has changed, because the true message is too hard to ignore, and too easy for people to look up. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.

I often hear criticism of things like racism, using quotes from Brigham Young, or our "merderous" past using Mountain Meadows Masacre and "blood atonement" as examples. All I say is if all you can find are 150 year old issues which pretty much condemn the philosophies and ideas of everyone in the 1800s (reminding them that the Southern Baptist Convention was established to fight for the rights of slave ownership), then they really have no room to condemn Mormonism.

[prisonchaplain]

Since most evangelicals have given up on choir music, we no longer view the Mormon Tabernacle Choir as such a threat. You should see animosities dissipate rapidly in the next few years. :-)

Edited December 7, 2010 by prisonchaplain

[Blackmarch]

My friends that work at the Church offices tell me that in the last 10 years that we LDS have become less liked than previously. According to studies the reason is not because of anything members are doing but because of criticism from other religious groups. The view of most LDS is that the criticism not well founded.

This means that despite the openness of individuals like PC. That in general the gap between LDS and other religious groups is increasing. I am not sure if this is something we should expect and except or attempt to do something.

The Traveler

the gap between the world and Christ is widening... And those who let the devil guide them or them or walk blinded by man will be with the world and not christ.

While the church may be suffering more than average from this, it is not solely resting on the LDS church, I believe all or most christian groups are suffering something like this to some degree.

Which means we have to step up our efforts to be a light upon a hill to the world.

[JohnnyRudick]

I been around on the internett for some 10 years defending the LDS Church. During this time I heve noticed a few changes in the way antimormons work.

First was the demand of calling those who question the Church for critics not anties. Calling anties critics has lowered the stabdard of critics a lot. There are some respectable critics who question the teachings of LDS, but some "critics" dont deserve that name. Why not? I think the biggest difference is that a critic listens to the answers and go on from them, while an anti keeps repeating himself.

Second the attacs are not so filled with direct hate and dispice as before. Instead the antifront has adopted a much more undirect form: The wolves in sheep clothing. It is not weird as netsites like this ban people directly hostile to our religion right away, so tehy really dont get anywhere with this hostality. But today is tolerance IN. IF the request of "tolerance" is not reached they will scream in loud voice that we, LDS, are not allowing the freedom of word! In the world of today that is considered a very bad thing not to be able to write what one wishes, question what one wishes. Is it nessesary... is it nessessary to question things about LDS on an LDS discusition?

Ofcourse anyone can have questions... the problem here is you NEVER know if the questions are asked by someone who is here in order to NOT TO find out the answer, but to spread confusion. Once read words are difficult to brush away. Ofcourse these people are the innocense themselves!

It is too bad there really is not anythign we can do to protect peopel fex on this forum from those wolves. We know they are there. They lie in wait to decieve.

How ever there IS somethings YOU can do.

One; if a subject of a thread feels wrong... go to read something else

Two; STUDY the BASICS. Dull? Done it so many times? Yes it may be so, but IF you have a smallest doubt of anythig of the basics you have a problem.

Three; Read scriptures, and pray, you will find the answer.

Four; Froget yourself and serve others, strengthen others so you wilol be strengthened.

In order to find answers search/read

LDS.org scriptures search with words.

Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home

Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum

ask Contacting FAIR

FAIR wikipedia is good for those who can handle a bit harder stuff.

In the world of today we mods are trying to keep the discusition sites nice, but we do need YOUR help. So when ever you see a questionable post, blogg PLEASE help us and click on the red flag on the right site of the post and let us know why you think it was not a nice post. Remember what this netsite is like depends on YOU. We also want to know what you think about LDS.net. What can we do better (NO NAMES OR FINGER POINTS!) Even though it is not allowed to critizise the mods we stil can take some suggestiones that can make the site better... I hope...

I see that the LDS.neters have become more and more questioning of the basic beliefs trough some stuff that is not important at all... but that some manage to make sound as the most important thigs in LDS theology.

In the end... KEEP STRONG! I heard it all ... but 99% is just lies!

Love your post.

Thanks

[RipplecutBuddha]

I too have been exploring the anti-Mormon side of things for several years. I was warned frequently of the dangers of doing so, and I took those warnings seriously. For any who want to look themselves, I repeat the warning that to do so with any amount of safety, you must pray constantly, and consistently for the presence of the Spirit while doing so.

Some conclusions I have reached from my studies are as follows.

1. The lion's share of the anti's message comes from arguments that began while Joseph Smith was still alive. None of them have gained any legitimate traction or progress since that time. Further, the answers that have been given in response to them have not lost any traction or validity. If you come across an issue you cannot answer, rest assured, the answer has been found and rehearsed several times already. Ask for God's help in finding the answer, and he will guide you to it.

2. While not all anti's are former Mormons, the most venomous that I have encountered claim to have been members before. Since there's no realistic way to fact check their claims, one may take them as they choose. Either way, they have their reward.

3. Once someone gets to know the average member of the LDS church such as a classmate, neighbor, or co-worker, they never have anything bad to say about us. Ever. This leads me to the following conclusions

a. Our personal example is vital to the combat of the anti's message. As we walk in harmony with what we believe, those observing us will see the truth for themselves. Actions speak far louder than any words.

b. No bold anti-Mormon I have spoken with has been immediately willing to check us out in real life. They don't think they know any Mormons, and they don't want to meet any. They don't want to read the BoM, nor do they want to attend sunday services....not even once. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

c. They probably know a few Mormons that haven't been vocal about their faith, and thus escape detection. There's a characiature of what a Mormon is supposed to be like within the anti community, and when we don't fit into that mold, ie. when we're just being ourselves, they don't see us as they expect to.

So, what to take from all of this....

1. We can, and need to, maintain our testimonies of what we know is true with all the energies of our souls. The battle is not getting easier by any means.

2. We don't need to be perfect in our examples to non-members. We simply need to be honest examples, sincere in our desires, faith, and love for others. Remember that it's how we act that tells others what is important to us far and above what we say.

3. The anti's questions, claims, assupmtions, and lies have no foundation. They are very much a part of the great and spacious building seen in Lehi's dream, and when they fall, their fall will also be great.

4. When the trials of faith come, and they do for all of us, lean unto Christ for your strength. Pray to Him for all your needs and He will answer you every time. Don't fear when you are left to say "I don't know." Follow that statement with "But I know where to find the answer."

5. The world is filled with wonderful non-members. Don't ever forget that. The Anti-Mormon crowd is a desperate minority, and they likely will remain that way as long as we continue to demonstrate the truth of what we believe.

If someone has honest questions, seek to answer them as best you can. If you feel contention despite your attempts at a peaceful dialouge, extract yourself from the discussion. The Gospel of Christ was never intended to be something to be fought over, much less to be used as a weapon against others. People will reject the truth. It is their choice, and we must allow them that choice just as we seek to be allowed our choice. It will be painful, but God has given us all the gift of agency and none has the right to encroach on that gift.

*steps off of the soap box*

All the best, with respect

RCB

[Tantalus]

I hope I am showing that I am truly interested in the Mormon POV to make my own decisions, rather than being a jerk. I just want truth.

Edited December 23, 2010 by pam
Let's watch for appropriate language on the site.

[RipplecutBuddha]

No worries from me, and believe me when I say you'll know when people start thinking that of you. You won't have to ask.

From my perspective, you're asking some great quesitons and engaging in serious and respectful debate. A refreshing change from my own past experiences.

[IAmTheWork]

Fair enough. Not all exmormons are anti. But to be fair, some of the most vocal and angry anti's were once mormon.

I had a read of a well known anti-Mormon site perhaps a year ago, having found a link to it at random. When I posted a few messages disagreeing with some of the vitriol being spouted there, I found that some responded in a friendly and positive way, while others got worse in their attacks on the LDS church. Many, I noticed, had issues such as abuse by family or church members, and seemed to be trying to burn the church down because of that. Needless to say, I didn't frequent it often or for long; far too depressing.

Really, it started with that "banned" cartoon.

That banned (YouTube vid?) cartoon looked really childish and silly to me when I came across it in recent weeks, and it in fact made me realise how much of the church teachings still mesh with my thoughts and experience (or vice-versa). Sometimes others shouting loudly enough about something can make themselves look very foolish, and give people food for thought in the opposite direction to what they intended.

Regarding the OP, I think it's important not to become paranoid and see everyone who doesn't appear to 'fit the mould' as a potential enemy. Communism and other ideologies grew and fell in on themselves due to just such paranoia. Not that I'm seeing that here though - it's just a thought.

In fact I awoke in horror early this morning with the realisation that I'd used an acronym which was far from polite in any forum, let alone an LDS one. (I genuinely thought it was short for something innocent). Pam kindly changed it without booting me off. But then the topic is insidious attack rather than open abuse which is easy to spot. I always wonder, where does the line between healthy and open thought blur into someone who doesn't understand or like it accusing someone of 'thought crime'..? The glory of god is intelligence, but sometimes the intelligence we think we have can lead us into false logic, and being scared of things which may only exist in our imagination, don't you think?

Oh, and to part of the OP again, I find that where I live in the UK most people talk about Mormons very little, and usually with a small shrug, as though it's just 'some other thing' like JW's, and so on. I've heard nothing derogatory in as long as I can remember.

Edited January 1, 2011 by IAmTheWork
Spelling.

[Suzie]

In my view I think there is a difference between an anti-Mormon and a Mormon critic, while the first one mock and disrespect some of the things we consider sacred, the second one usually have concerns with regards to some points of doctrine or church history and is looking for answers. We have lots of Mormon critics within the Church.

I am not a believer of dismissing everything that these both groups say to "protect" my testimony (what would I needed to protected from?). I think it is very important for members to know those issues that some consider "taboo".

We shouldn't be foolish either to think that ALL they say are "lies" because we may be missing some important things. Now, don't take me wrong, I am not advocating going to web sites and search anti-Mormon literature, however if you come across a Mormon Critic take the time to listen, don't quickly dismiss anything and see how much you truly know about the Church you decided to join. I believe that once we are more familiar with the past and present of this Church as well as its past and present doctrine, we can become better instruments in the Lord's hands in answering a lot of difficult questions non-members ask and that often times we do not know the answer for or brush it off as "lies from antis" when in fact, in some cases, are not.

In my opinion, of course.

[bytebear]

But how often do you hear a unique challenge? It's the same tired hashed out arguments over and over again. And, I am really tired of hearing that the church membership is really in the dark until you reach a certain level of understanding. They often use the temple as an example but quite honestly, I was surprised at how common the teachings were. I was waiting for some new insight or stories from the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, but I got Adam and Eve? Hardly secretive teachings. The presentation did make me think about the story in a different way, but it was hardly information hidden from the general membership.

And yes, pretty much every Mormon knows about Mountain Meadows Massacre and Joseph Smith's wives, so stop trying to "shock us." It only works with investigators who aren't interested enough to look up the facts.

Edited January 7, 2011 by bytebear

[Gramajane]

F.A.I.R on line can save a ton of time with the

"same old" anti book supplied "questions" to ask LDS

--- it is SOO sweet to get to answer honest questions

from true investigators :)

--- still I personally know of quite a few people

myself, who BEGAN discussions with the false idea

that "the end justifies the means" so it was ok to not

be totally honest if one could help "save LDS"

from their brainwashed state.

Yet when LDS were Christlike in their replies and HAD

such reasonable and truthful answers to the supposed

totally challenging "questions" then the

"investigators" DID investigate and join.

--- I actually believe most anti books have

several "missions" are not really expecting

to get to be read by LDS but are to;

1. Make money and fame for the authors

2. Convince non LDS that LDS are wrong

by providing "strawmen" that supposedly

represent our true beliefs (not!) and are

easily defeated-- along with lies etc

3. And lastly possibly decieve new members.

--- Hugh Nibley wrote a spoof work titled

"How to write an Anti Mormon Book"

that you would think was used by the anti

and it would have been hialourous (sp)

if it hadn't been about such infernal deciet

Gramajane

3.

[Suzie]

But how often do you hear a unique challenge?

What do you consider a "unique challenge"?

They often use the temple as an example but quite honestly, I was surprised at how common the teachings were.

I suppose it all depends on the person, their personal revelation, preparation, study, etc. Some may view it as common teachings while others think they are great treasures of knowledge that takes probably a lifetime to fully grasp and understand.

, but it was hardly information hidden from the general membership.

I don't know about "hiding" however there is literally a lot of information that we receive in the Temple that the average member (who may not have a temple recommend) isn't able to access (minus the internet). Having said that, having the information and understanding the information are two completely different things. Maybe you meant something different?

Edited January 8, 2011 by Suzie
typo

[Backroads]

I guess none of it bothers me because I've heard pretty much everything from church, seminary, parents, over the years.

Nothing shocks me.

[Elphaba]

And yes, pretty much every Mormon knows about Mountain Meadows Massacre and Joseph Smith's wives, so stop trying to "shock us." It only works with investigators who aren't interested enough to look up the facts.

Just this last Thanksgiving my sister-in-law was shocked to hear about Joseph's wives. She had no idea, and she was raised in the Church in St. George, Utah. She's in her late 30s.

Elphaba

Edited January 8, 2011 by Elphaba
Changed "Christmas" to "Thanksgiving."

[Gramajane]

There are many people who supposedly "have been raised in the church"

but then you find out that, they hardly attended, or quit attending

when they were young, or they were ones who didn't listen to the teacher

because they were too busy talking to friends, or hanging out in the halls

, or never attended seminary (or slept through it) etc etc.

Humm, I wonder if that Aunt would be shocked to hear about Abraham's wives, Isaac's, or Jacobs, Or any other of the MAJOR Bible prophets multiple wives?

[Gramajane]

To me, "true questions" come from reading the Bible

or they might come from reading an anti book,

and then HONESTLY asking if such and such is true that they read in such and such book.

To me "fake questions" are like Huckabee asking that reporter if Mormons didn't believe Jesus Christ and Satan were brothers? (if you want to real scoop- go to FAIR!)

when it has been shown that Huck himself spoke at a religious symposium that addressed that very

topic-- I believe he knew it was even worse than a "red herring" (something to distract from the real bulk of the fish- ((situation))) as I believe he knew already that it was a distortion pulled together in such a way as to upset most people and made by anti.

---- I believe he has some mighty repenting to do and that "question" to a **reporter** made sure it would make the news! -- pretty disgusting to me. : /

[Gramajane]

P.S. Or true, good, unique questions could come from the individual reading the Book of Mormon, or any other official church doctrine, or even over hearing someone talking etc.

They ARE questions, as the person WANTS to hear what LDS believe,

the goal is not to destroy another persons belief,

or to "open their eyes" in a deceptive way, pretending they will listen,

when so many (in my experience) do NOT want answers at all--.