Judging others

[beefche]

I have seen a few threads lately where the phrase "you are judging me/others" is thrown about. And that prompted some thoughts. I've seen this ALOT from forums to personal life. And invariably, it is always someone who stands up for what they believe and the other takes offense because they don't believe it.

Even when one says, "I don't agree with that action. I think it is wrong. But you can do whatever you think is right.": that person is then accused of judging or judging harshly.

First, the Lord taught us to judge--not other people, but actions. If I meet someone who spends their leisure time doing drugs, drinking alcohol and beating puppies, I am going to make a judgement that I don't want to spend my leisure time with that person. I don't approve of those actions. Therefore, I have made a judgement that I believe that person is acting wrongly. What he/she chooses to do I have no control over nor do I have the Lord's approval to say they are going to heaven or hell. But, I do have the right and commandment to judge for myself if I will do those actions or have that person's behavior in my life.

Secondly, when we say someone is judging us (and that IS true sometimes), aren't we, then, making a judgment? "I drink caffeine and you say it's wrong and against the WoW--you are judging me!" Isn't that a judgment? You are judging that someone else is judging....

Finally, we make judgments that are positive as well. When someone comes on here and says that are in the repentance process, we always say, "Good job! You made the right choice!" Isn't that judgment? We've judged that their actions are right....yet, no one ever accuses someone of that. "You said I was doing the right thing to get baptized! Quit judging me!" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

I guess I just don't understand why people insist that others are judging (and again, I do understand that it does happen). It seems so often that many go out of their way to say that they do not agree with an action, but that is just their opinion and the cry of "judgment" begins.

So, tell me, where am I wrong in this line of thinking?

[Vort]

Those that judge others are scumbags.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Vort
Kan't spel rite.

[MarginOfError]

Those that judge otheres are scumbags.

I've heard it from others that Vort knows this from experience.

[Dravin]

I honestly think when most accusations of judgement come out it is more a reference to attitude then actual content. I think it's condescension (with a side of sanctimony), perceived or real, that tends to be what people are actually taking issue with. That's how I judge the situation anyway.

[MarginOfError]

I honestly think when most accusations of judgement come out it is more a reference to attitude then actual content. I think it's condescension (with a side of sanctimony), perceived or real, that tends to be what people are actually taking issue with. That's how I judge the situation anyway.

Scumbag!

EDIT: Just found this.

[estradling75]

I honestly think when most accusations of judgement come out it is more a reference to attitude then actual content. I think it's condescension (with a side of sanctimony), perceived or real, that tends to be what people are actually taking issue with. That's how I judge the situation anyway.

And lets face it... Telling someone you think they are sinning or wrong, is not something that is really conductive to being taken in a positive way, which skews perception drastically.

[beefche]

I honestly think when most accusations of judgement come out it is more a reference to attitude then actual content. I think it's condescension (with a side of sanctimony), perceived or real, that tends to be what people are actually taking issue with. That's how I judge the situation anyway.

I would love to agree with you. But, I just can't. I don't want to bring in names on this thread, but I could link you to several threads over the years (caffeine, women wearing pants to church, nudity, etc) here that have people saying, "I think this is wrong. I think it is a sin. You have the right to choose or see it differently, but in my opinion, it isn't right." I'm not sure how attitude or condescension comes into play with that phrasing. Maybe I am not so close to the situation so I don't read condescension in posts such as that.

[Traveler]

I have seen a few threads lately where the phrase "you are judging me/others" is thrown about. And that prompted some thoughts. I've seen this ALOT from forums to personal life. And invariably, it is always someone who stands up for what they believe and the other takes offense because they don't believe it.

Even when one says, "I don't agree with that action. I think it is wrong. But you can do whatever you think is right.": that person is then accused of judging or judging harshly.

First, the Lord taught us to judge--not other people, but actions. If I meet someone who spends their leisure time doing drugs, drinking alcohol and beating puppies, I am going to make a judgement that I don't want to spend my leisure time with that person. I don't approve of those actions. Therefore, I have made a judgement that I believe that person is acting wrongly. What he/she chooses to do I have no control over nor do I have the Lord's approval to say they are going to heaven or hell. But, I do have the right and commandment to judge for myself if I will do those actions or have that person's behavior in my life.

Secondly, when we say someone is judging us (and that IS true sometimes), aren't we, then, making a judgment? "I drink caffeine and you say it's wrong and against the WoW--you are judging me!" Isn't that a judgment? You are judging that someone else is judging....

Finally, we make judgments that are positive as well. When someone comes on here and says that are in the repentance process, we always say, "Good job! You made the right choice!" Isn't that judgment? We've judged that their actions are right....yet, no one ever accuses someone of that. "You said I was doing the right thing to get baptized! Quit judging me!" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

I guess I just don't understand why people insist that others are judging (and again, I do understand that it does happen). It seems so often that many go out of their way to say that they do not agree with an action, but that is just their opinion and the cry of "judgment" begins.

So, tell me, where am I wrong in this line of thinking?

I agree with you thinking. I believe the scriptures do encourage us to judge. The problem has to do with modern translations and understanding of ancient scriptures. I am told by my friends that read ancient text that the actual meaning is altered slightly when the scriptures say to judge not. What is a better understanding would be to “condemn not”.

This I believe is a very important notion. Here we learn not to condemn the person but to judge clearly their actions. This, I believe, is exactly what you are saying. Thus I believe you have an inspired understanding of scripture - Therefore, I am judging you but not condemning you.

The Traveler

[Backroads]

I would love to agree with you. But, I just can't. I don't want to bring in names on this thread, but I could link you to several threads over the years (caffeine, women wearing pants to church, nudity, etc) here that have people saying, "I think this is wrong. I think it is a sin. You have the right to choose or see it differently, but in my opinion, it isn't right." I'm not sure how attitude or condescension comes into play with that phrasing. Maybe I am not so close to the situation so I don't read condescension in posts such as that.

While I think there is some truth to what Dravin says, this was said perfectly. I was trying to express how I felt in one of those controversial threads, but this says it so much better.

I think when people get into these heated discussions, their emotional guards are a little more sensitive. And online where we are minus so many other forms of communication, it's so easy to interpret things that aren't there.

I'm pretty guilty of "taking offense" in these situations, even though I try my darndest to assume the best that so-n-so REALLY IS just stating his/her opinion. Like Dravin said, it's common to interpret that even while someone is saying they aren't judging you... they really are. And maybe they are. Let's face it: It's easy to say "I'm not judging you." It's easy for me to disbelieve you. But in the simple, common phrase of beefche's example, there really isn't enough information to concretely assume either way.

Now I've felt like the "victim" where someone is saying "in my opinion, that's not right". And I disagree with the decree of wrong and I have my reasons and I don't feel I'm justifying myself whatsoever.

But I do so hate to think someone else is judging me even when they claim they are not.

I love the quote "What someone else thinks of you is none of your business" and I want to be better at applying that to my life.

If I suspect judgement... maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

I need to work on that it's not my problem.

[RescueMom]

We can judge if the actions of what someone is doing is wrong, avoid those actions ourselves. But we must not condem them because of those actions. We can not see into their hearts. If a person is drinking coffee we can't go up to them and say you're evil and going to hell. I wouldn't even approach them to say the WoW says its wrong. However if they were a friend I would sit with them and not be ashamed to sit with them.

Sure most of the time you can avoid people who aren't living a good life, but what if that person is a child, or a parent, or a spouse? If your child is doing drugs, do you condemn them and avoid them because they are struggling with drugs? they know what they are doing is wrong, so how is your condemnation towards them going to help the situation? Only God can see into our hearts and knows why we do what we do.

It all boils down to hate the sin, love the sinner. And if we need an example of how to love the sinner and hate the sin, look at Christ's example. He hung on a cross for the sinners that put him there, he didn't tolerate sin in his life at all, yet he loved sinners. He alone can make proper judgement of the sinner, while the rest of us can make judgement of the sin and not to tolerate it.

[Dravin]

I would love to agree with you. But, I just can't. I don't want to bring in names on this thread, but I could link you to several threads over the years (caffeine, women wearing pants to church, nudity, etc) here that have people saying, "I think this is wrong. I think it is a sin. You have the right to choose or see it differently, but in my opinion, it isn't right." I'm not sure how attitude or condescension comes into play with that phrasing. Maybe I am not so close to the situation so I don't read condescension in posts such as that.

First my statement was qualified not a universal.

That said it's about perception, it need not reflect some sort of objective standard. Take for instance one of my sisters who loves to accuse people of not listening to her when people don't agree with her. Her perception is that, her reasoning being so bullet proof, if you aren't agreeing with her and aren't persuaded by her reasoning the only reason can be that you aren't listening to her reasoning. In line with that (that perception can differ drastically from reality), what estradling points out (telling someone you think what they do or propose or espouse is sinful prejudices perceptions), and that people generally, around these parts, don't tend to leave it alone at, "I think it's a sin, but that's my opinion." they tend to pull in scripture or statements that can communicate a perceived implied, "That's my opinion, it's also God's and the Prophets'. So why don't you follow them?." a perception of condescension and/or sanctimony really wouldn't be that hard to occur even from a comment that would be perceived benignly from someone who isn't the target.

Additionally, the longer a thread goes on the more insistent a lot of people tend to get which also can be perceived negatively, or you have cases where each person is providing their two cents individually but if you are on the 'receiving end' it looks like a mass movement against you which puts you on the defensive much more easily. It gets even worse when both are happening. Understand, I'm not saying that those who are accused of judgement are being condescending I'm saying they are being perceived as such. If they actually are is going to vary.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Dravin

[Backroads]

My statement was qualified not a universal. It's about perception, it need not reflect some sort of objective standard. Take for instance one of my sisters who loves to accuse people of not listening to them when they don't agree with her. Her perception is that, her reasoning being so bullet proof, if you aren't agreeing with her and aren't persuaded by her reasoning the only reason can be that you aren't listening to her reasoning. In line with that, and what estradling points out, people generally, around these parts, don't tend to leave it alone at, "I think it's a sin, but that's my opinion." they tend to pull in scripture or statements that can communicate a perceived, "That's my opinion, it's also God's and the Prophets. So why don't you follow them?."

Understand, I'm not saying that those who are accused of judgement are being condescending or not, I'm saying they are most often being perceived as such.

Ultimately it's that perception that matters...

Thanks for clarifying. Now I also agree with you.

[applepansy]

Traveler, very well said.

Thank you!!!

[applepansy]

Beeche,

I think Elder Oaks talk says exactly what you're referring to.

“Judge Not†and Judging - Ensign Aug. 1999

Thank you for posting on this subject. :)

[classylady]

Good post Beefche, I agree with what you say. And what's the saying, I can't remember it exactly "try walking a mile in my shoes before judging". We simply don't know what is happening in people's lives or within their minds to make condemning judgments or remarks about them. And especially on forums like these, all we read are the little snippets of what's happening in someone's life. We don't know all the anguish of soul they may be going through, or some of the physical and emotional battles they may have suffered.

[Vort]

And what's the saying, I can't remember it exactly "try walking a mile in my shoes before judging".

You're thinking of a profound Jack Handey quote:

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.

[Guest]

A lot of it also is the communication style.

I, personally, don't mind this:

"I think taking a nude photo is a sin.".

It opens up the discussion to "why do you think it's a sin?" which can lead to a really good exchange of knowledge... even bringing scripture verses into the discussion to support one side or the other. A lot of learning can happen here.

But this one, I have to work at combing my hackles down:

"I think taking a nude photo is a sin. You want to defy the GA's it's up to you."

That.. although the writer insists is just opinion ("I think") brings it to a different level of judgement. At that point, the conversation is done and there's no further learning that can occur without it going into a contentious spirit. Which is a bummer, because it would be really cool to understand why there's a difference in opinion.

Make sense?

[Just_A_Guy]

The whole "you're judging me" gambit is a master stroke of rhetoric, because it so utterly and completely reverses the participants' respective roles: saint becomes sinner, and sinner becomes saint.

[beefche]

Like Dravin said, it's common to interpret that even while someone is saying they aren't judging you... they really are. And maybe they are. Let's face it: It's easy to say "I'm not judging you." It's easy for me to disbelieve you.

But why not take them at their word? Unless they put, "you scumbag!" after their post, why do people judge them as judging them?

Why can't we remember that communication is difficult, no matter the venue? Even face-to-face communication is difficult. But online it can be worse.

[Backroads]

But why not take them at their word? Unless they put, "you scumbag!" after their post, why do people judge them as judging them?

Why can't we remember that communication is difficult, no matter the venue? Even face-to-face communication is difficult. But online it can be worse.

And that's my point! We must learn to take them at their word! I can't know anything else.

[Backroads]

But this one, I have to work at combing my hackles down:

"I think taking a nude photo is a sin. You want to defy the GA's it's up to you."

That.. although the writer insists is just opinion ("I think") brings it to a different level of judgement. At that point, the conversation is done and there's no further learning that can occur without it going into a contentious spirit. Which is a bummer, because it would be really cool to understand why there's a difference in opinion.

Make sense?

In this example, more than your actions are being judged. I would interpret that as being accused as a sinner, not one who sins. Not only am doing <insert possible sin> but now I defy the GAs as well.

It's hard NOT to take that in a bad way, and I would like to see evidence making that open to less-harsh interpretation.

[Jamie123]

As Brian of Nazareth said, "Don't judge others, or you might get judged yourself!"

(And don't forget the Miracle of the Juniper Bushes!)

[Dravin]

In this example, more than your actions are being judged. I would interpret that as being accused as a sinner, not one who sins. Not only am doing <insert possible sin> but now I defy the GAs as well.

It's hard NOT to take that in a bad way, and I would like to see evidence making that open to less-harsh interpretation.

It's not like there is an objective standard though. The best you could hope for is the establishment of some standard of reasonableness but even that has caveats. Is it offensive to offer someone a BLT? Most would say no, but if I knew you were Jewish, Muslim, or a moral vegetarian, or a bacon lover who is on a bacon restricted diet and offered it to you, you might say yes.

[Vort]

The best thing about threads on judgmentalism is the liberal use of the word "scumbag".

[JudoMinja]

This reminds me of a blog post I made awhile back, though I was referring to judging others at church. You can read it here if you would like.

It is harder to tell what others really mean sometimes when communicating online, and that can contribute to misconceptions, but largely I think that when someone gets defensive and cries "your judging me!" the fault is more on their end than the other. Typically, when someone reacts this way, the person is already feeling guilty, or wrong, or unsure about what they are doing and anything opposed to their own view or opinion is automatically seen as a judgement call. The person feels like they are being persecuted or belittled or looked down upon and ends up taking offense to any comments that could in any way be construed as hurtful.

The words we choose when expressing ourselves online are very important. It is easy for a person to appear condescending or harsh, but even if you ARE being condescending or harsh the person who becomes offended is at fault also. We need to be equally careful not to take offense to what others say. Sometimes people are rude, yes. And sometimes people are overly sensitive, yes. You mix together those sometimes rude people and sometimes overly sensitive people and you will have problems.

Since I believe (for the most part) that people are genuinly cocerned about others and are not purposely trying to be hurtful, I think that what it really boils down to is miscommunications. Then, instead of just letting it role on by, people feel like they have to defend themselves and so hash out their views to no end.