Why is immodesty and pornography disgusting?

[Vort]

I mostly agree with what you have written, but there is one mistake:

Murder and fornication were the two sins punishable by death under the Law of Moses.

This is not correct. Murder was not always punishable by death, and the only fornication so punished was adultery. Non-marital fornication was punishable by forcing the guilty parties to marry (assuming the father of the virgin woman approved; otherwise, the man had to pay the bride price anyway).

Why the punishment for fornication should be so much harsher than for adultery is not given us to know.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vort

[MorningStar]

I'm probably getting into a rat's nest here, but . . .

I think there is a significant number of women in the Church who, for reasons of their own, view male sexuality (and anything that satisfies it) as per se disgusting. It's funny, when you hear women talking among themselves, how many of them hold their husbands in utter contempt for wanting sex at all. At some family gatherings, in unmixed company, my wife has heard her relatives boast about either a) how they've slammed the door on a husband right when he thought he was about to "get some", and/or b) the concessions they've extracted from their husbands in exchange for sex.

Like so many other gender-based behaviors, we're being slowly conditioned to believe that the typical female approach (e.g., sex isn't that important) is more "civilized" than the typical male approach (e.g., sex is very important and should happen often). And perhaps a little more to the point: If you've been using sex to control your husband, and all of a sudden he doesn't need you anymore . . . that threatens the whole power dynamic of your marriage.

Let me emphasize this next part, lest I be accused of justifying pornography: Obviously pornography is evil. Certainly a lot of women legitimately fear for their eternal families where the husband is caught up in a sin like pornography.

But there are also, I think,* a not-insubstantial number of LDS women who loathe pornography in large part because it threatens power they have historically been able to exert over their own husbands and (to a lesser extent) the rest of the male populace of the Church.

*And I'm not saying this motivated the thread cited in the OP; I'm just making a general observation.

I strongly disagree with that last part. I hated pornography when I was exposed to it in Kindergarten, I hate it as a mother, I hate it as a daughter, I hate it as a sister, and I hate it as a wife. I don't know any women who hate it because it interferes with their ability to manipulate their husbands by withholding sex. I know women who hate pornography because their husbands have rejected them, preferring the porn over them. I know women who are hurt because their husbands stopped initiating sex due to porn use. They wait for their husbands to come to bed while they continue to surf until 3am. Yes, there are plenty of women who like sex. I don't personally know any women who use it against their husbands. If anything, they lose desire at times, but they aren't happy about it.

I can't even describe how horrible I felt the times I encountered pornography. As a child who couldn't even verbalize what I saw to my parents, I felt horrible and I never forgot the magazine my friend showed me at her house. It was too humiliating to tell my mom. I had never heard of such a thing, but I immediately knew what my friend was showing me was wrong. I said, "Your parents are sick." She said, "No, that's normal and natural. That's what adults do when they love each other." I repeated, "Your parents are sick." Then I left the room. I knew there was no love in that picture.

Why is porn disgusting? It perverts what is supposed to be beautiful. God gave husband and wife a beautiful gift and people turned it into something dirty.

When it comes to modesty, women might dress in a way they feel is fashionable, but fashion basically follows what is "sexy". Why do I need to be sexy for anyone other than my husband? I don't think teenage girls even understand that they're not just attracting boys their age. When I was a teenager, I didn't want to attract attention to my body at all. I wanted someone who was interested in me for my personality, talents, etc.

[Blackmarch]

Many times in many threads, most recently here, forum members have maintained that immodesty and pornography are "disgusting". Just curious: What do you find disgusting about immodest dress or pornography?

As it happens, I completely agree with the sentiment, but I'd like to read the views of others as to why such things disgust them before sharing my own ideas.

it perverts the ways of god and godliness in a very major way. And it can be avery subtle road off the straight and narrow.

It seduces the mind, deadens the heart, and repels the Holy ghost so that one loses the light of christ. And IMO when that happens ones talents start withering and valued virtues will also leave.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Blackmarch

[rameumptom]

Vort,

I'd say that what makes it disgusting for me has to do with the Spirit. When I'm in tune with the Spirit, it sensitizes me towards spiritual and uplifting things. This is not only with sex/porn/etc., but with violence or other actions of men.

Some people can watch the Saw movies and joke/laugh/enjoy them. I watch a commercial about one and I feel the Spirit jolt inside me. As I watch less violent films (say Westerns), I sometimes wonder if the Spirit doesn't jolt at those because perhaps I am not as in tune as I should be.

And perhaps this is why I can look at the statue of David and see beauty and art, whereas the naked photo of men and women in another context can be jolting to the Spirit as well. Intent is a major part of what establishes good or evil, beauty or disgust. Some members can watch sexual/violent R rated movies and not feel jolted by it - is it because they are not as close to the Spirit? Or is it a cultural thing that is unrelated to the Spirit? Personally, I think the former is a key reason.

Indeed, it is one method in how I can rate my spirituality from day to day, week to week, month to month. Does the Spirit warn me when I'm seeing or doing something that is inappropriate? And do I notice its warning? Is it strong or faint? Do I take heed, or ignore it?

So, perhaps the answer is in the amount of truth, light, intelligence and Spirit we have in us and seek to have in us.

[JudoMinja]

Why, indeed? That is a very good question. Speaking as someone who had to deal with and overcome a porn/sex addiction, I can say that this is something I pondered extensively when working through my repentance. I wanted to know what it was that perpetuated my addiction when at the same time, I felt completely disgusted by everything I viewed/did. So why was I pulled by it? And why did it disgust me?

Every time I viewed something pornographic or did anything that in anyway perverted the sacred nature of sex, I felt disgusted. The addictive pull was nothing more than the physical/chemical experience that produced euphoric endorphins and gave me a "high". I was constantly working past my feelings of disgust to get that high, and it was hard for me to understand how I could feel so "good" about something that also made me feel so disgusting. I had to conquer my addiction by exercising self-control and reigning in my physical desires and passions. Yet, if I'd never felt the disgust I probably never would have had the desire to overcome the addiction. If I had been able to allow my addiction to take hold without ever feeling any disgust, why would I have had any desire to repent?

I recently mentioned on another thread here somewhere what it felt like when I had a relapse in my repentance process. I had been doing so very well and completely rid myself of everything, but then I came to an extremely stressful, frightening situation in which I was alone and unprepared to face the temptation and I resorted to masturbation. I immediately felt the departure of the Spirit. I have since concluded that the source of that feeling of disgust is very spiritual. I believe it is the reaction of our very spirit to the perversion of something sacred.

Immodesty can be considered in the same light- when people dress immodestly (however we wish to define that), they are perverting their body by turning it into a physical display instead of respecting its sanctity as a temple for their spirit. Any time we feel that "gut" reaction of disgust, it is a spiritual reaction to some form of perversion. Some are more attuned to their spiritual voice, and some have become desensitized by the ways of the world. This is why some feel more greatly disgusted than others and we have such verying definitions of what constitutes "immodesty" or "pornography".

No matter how we define it or where we draw the line, it all boils down to one thing. The ways and things of the Lord are sacred, and when we pervert those things our spirits react adversely and we lose the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This results in disgust. Whether we are attuned to it or not, it is what happens, and we should make every effort to respect those things which are sacred and treat them accordingly so as to avoid offending the Spirit.

[Soulsearcher]

LOL I'm sure this will be about as popular as some of my other posts.

Once upon a time i was disgusted by pornography and immodesty. It had kinda been pre-programed in at an early age when raised in the Catholic church. Even really before i ever understood sexuality or even anything much about the human body, lessons were taught and ideas implanted. I'll admit My views have changed drastically. I'm no longer disgusted by pornography for the most part though i also tend to believe it's a very private thing and also can't become an obsession, there can be things about it that disgust me, but now they are more rational and not just pre-programed thoughts of someone else. The over all change in attitude for me came when i needed a compromise in life. I was expected to date girls and try and have a healthy normal relationship with a woman, but i preferred their brothers, so watching videos or looking at pics kinda of balanced me out (yes i know how well this line of thought will go over with the majority here lol) At first i still had the it's bad, vile disgusting something to be ashamed about mentality and this lasted for years, but finally i realized it was something more personal, it was me i was disgusted with and ashamed about. Once i faced my own personal issues my views on porn changed quite a bit, it's not such a taboo topic as it was and now it more of a joking matter with friends.

Immodesty is an odd one for me. I've always been more embarrassed than disgusted over female immodesty. It always made me uncomfortable and i usually quickly looked away so i never really got the chance to be disgusted much, but there were times it did really bother me, mostly when I'd go swimming with the kids and the 12-15 yr old girls were wearing swimsuits that were barely there. Male immodesty always made me more awkward than disgusted and still does. I know some of the bartenders at one of the clubs i go to and they tend to work just in their undies and when we go for smokes I'm always looking past them so as not to appear to be looking too hard at them. So never really been disgusted by male immodesty, but i also really don't think for the most part there's been as much focus on males as there are females when it comes to immodesty. So i wonder how much of our disgust it actually taught and conditioned and how much is an impulsive reaction. I know for me most of it was conditioning and to the amusement of my friends i still have quite a bit of the conditioning, some of it i want to hold on to to keep "MY" moral compass in an ok place, but i'm personally glad i was able to get past some of it.

[KrazyKay]

I feel that porn is wrong on many levels. But the most important, God's Spirit will leave when a person views porn - as others have stated who have viewed porn. I admit, I have viewed porn. This was when I wasn't active at church. I also remember that gut-retching feeling of the Spirit leaving me when I looked at porn.

A while back I was interested in how the brain works. I remember seeing an article about brain research that basically said there are parallels between drug use and heavy porn use as well as strong parallels between the withdrawal symptoms of drug abusers and heavy porn users.. I found that interesting. .

[Backroads]

Sexual intimacy and fulfillment is like quicksand; it exists in the moment, due to the confluence of events. You can no more film the beauty of sex between husband and wife to catalog in in a personal library than you can bottle up a sample of quicksand. You end up with a useless bottle of sand and water, or in the case of the tape, a video of two people having sex. The vital elements that made the experience beautiful and holy cannot be captured by a camera. So I personally think it's a waste of time (at best) to videotape such intimate acts.

I definitely agree with you on that, at least in my personal view. What's the point?

But I do stand behind the principle of two consenting adults in privacy.

[Just_A_Guy]

I strongly disagree with that last part.

Please note that I'm not saying that all, or even most LDS women feel the way I've described; I'm merely positing, based on anecdotal experience, that a substantial (hopefully) minority of LDS women seem to.

[Vort]

I definitely agree with you on that, at least in my personal view. What's the point?

As I wrote, the point is that I personally think it's a waste of time (at best) to videotape such intimate acts. At worst, it can be harmful, as anecdotal evidence from this very thread illustrates. Just a bad idea all the way around.

But I do stand behind the principle of two consenting adults in privacy.

In the sense of legality, I agree with you. In the sense of "Is this a good thing?", I think it's a foolish, unwise thing, even if both adults consent.

[MorningStar]

Please note that I'm not saying that all, or even most LDS women feel the way I've described; I'm merely positing, based on anecdotal experience, that a substantial (hopefully) minority of LDS women seem to.

Thank you. I think even if a woman does use sex to control her husband, I doubt her strong emotional reaction to discovering porn use would have to do with her loss of control. It's just so repulsive without being in any relationship at all.

[happy_n_hopeful]

First, thanks for that very helpful insight, JudoMinja! How hard it is to share something so personal, but how very helpful too!

As a new member I hope I am not repeating things that have already been said, but here is my point of view:

Not only does pornography (and to a lessor extent, immodesty) withdraw the Spirit, but it reduces what is good and beautiful in both women and men. Women become just sex objects- we no longer see their talents, personality, or anything that is divine in them. We do not see them as sisters, daughters, mothers or wives- just as an opportunity or 'eye candy'. And it degrades men too- into 'the natural man', or in other words, an animal. An animal focusing instictually on its desires with no regard to others.

To me, not only is it disgusting because it is a perverted and evil view of something meant to be sacred and holy (as JudoMinja and others aptly said), but it is disgusting in what it does to individuals and society. Both the person viewing the porn and the person in the porn can not respect themselves and begin to lose respect for all humans, because they can no longer see others for what they are- Sons and Daughters of God, with His divine potential.

[ruthiechan]

In my opinion pronography is the exploitation and exhibitionism of the sexual act which degrades another human being, and exhibits and promotes violence in relationship to sex.

Emphasis added.

So, if a married couple is into BDSM they are engaging in pornography?

[skippy740]

Okay, what exactly is disgusting about pornography?

Pornography is selfish, while lovemaking is selfless.

Huh?

(Look, I admit my own sins... but those who are in these kinds of productions often are in it for their own "o" and not the pleasure of the other. It's about the visualness of sex, not the exchange of love and affection. I can't get into any further detail without being more explicit. Let's just say that body positions are more separated in porn than they are during lovemaking with a husband & wife. It's obviously for the camera angles.)

The LEVEL OF DISGUST is in proportion to one's spirituality (or "holier than thou"-ness).

The images and videos of pornography show life in the "great and spacious building" - "free" from the "burden" of God's laws and commandments.

Each video or image is taking the viewer closer and closer to the river of filth and in taking residence in the "great and spacious building".

Yes, some can, will and do stop at a certain level, but they're clearly not on the path to the Tree of Life. They may be stuck in the mist of darkness... but their progression becomes halted.

Because of how the human mind works, the images are stuck in the mind forever - even after repentance has been sought and forgiven. Wives may never trust their husbands as they one had at the beginning of their marriage.

Wives also become suspect of wherever their husband's eyes wander. (And eyes DO wander! This is NORMAL.) But now, the seeds of distrust are grown to a level where the spouse may wonder if you're seeking "your next hit" like you may be looking for your next hit of cocaine.

And that's just with the porn. If you've ever "sexted" or actually had an emotional/physical affair with another... you may irrepairably damaged the marriage covenant between you and your spouse.

So, it's not necessarily what's "on the screen" or in the magazine. It's what it represents of the spritual state of the soul who is gorging themselves in this behavior.

[Blocky]

I can't help but feel that when viewing pornography, not only does the Spirit withdraw but something very dark and evil is invited to be close to us. I can't help but think of an evil spirit sitting there encouraging us as we participate is such a thing, with as strong of an influence as if we invited him in. That evil influence is pretty disgusting.

[happy_n_hopeful]

I can't help but feel that when viewing pornography, not only does the Spirit withdraw but something very dark and evil is invited to be close to us. I can't help but think of an evil spirit sitting there encouraging us as we participate is such a thing, with as strong of an influence as if we invited him in. That evil influence is pretty disgusting.

I completely agree. I once walked in on someone viewing porn, and it literally made me sick the evil spirit that was there!

[slamjet]

If I may, well, I'm going to anyway.

I find it interesting the level of disgust being raised from pornography and it's effect on the spiritual self. I'm going to add something to the discussion that, as far as I have read, has not been broached; objectification.

Pornography takes the human and turns them into an object devoid of feelings and beauty. When a sexual act is photographed, it ceases to be an act of love and bonding, but an objective moment. Get or do enough of this, and one's own feeling of empathy and sympathy for others diminishes and disappears. The act of sex is no longer an act of love and bonding, but becomes nothing more than an act of control and base inhibitions.

Pornography turns a person into a predator. It may be in different degrees, but a predator none the less. What starts off as a harmless act of fun gives permission for all kinds of other acts and thoughts. Everyone becomes an object for one's own use, to be disposed of when finished. I remember the first time I looked at a woman and thought "she is a daughter of God" I was taken aback. That was really strange, but progress from what I would have thought not so long ago.

I can also say that from my own experience, objectification also takes away any skills of empathy. I have a very hard time empathizing with someone else. I always was, and really still am miffed by strong emotions from even funerals. Why in the world is everyone crying? The dude is gone, bury him/her and move on. Someone got hurt? Suck it up. It hasn't been until the last few years that I've been able to get better at the skill of seeing things from the other persons point of view and how they may feel. Notice, not how I would feel, how they would feel. Now that I've grown closer and closer to God and have had many spiritual moments, I'm starting to have feelings that I really don't know what to do with, how to define them nor how to channel them. But I am getting better.

Another victim of objectification is friendship. I swear to you, I have no idea what a friend is. Everyone is an acquaintance, no one is a friend. I remember when someone whom I admire and is really helping me called me "friend," I was lost. I really didn't know what to do with it. That was about a year ago. It's still a foreign concept to me.

Now I know I'm an extreme case, but there have been so many that I have known who have gone through the same issues. It's such a hard battle and so uncomfortable and foreign that they just give up and shut down. But there are many that have gotten into the whole pornography thing for just a short time, and they tell me how they have lost empathy for their loved ones. It doesn't take much to mess up your mind.

Pornography is so insidious. It takes so much away from the human spirit. I envy those who have never fell into it's grasps. As for me, I've got well over three decades of programming to have disassemble and replaced. I can truly say that when the GA's say that the only way to get over this problem is thorough the Atonement, they are dead-spot on.

[mnn727]

Of course any sane minded person would agree that pornography is disgusting. .

Sorry, but I disagree with that statement and so does the facts and figures. Are you saying that everyone that looks at port is insane? Do you know how many people view porn?

[Soulsearcher]

Sorry, but I disagree with that statement and so does the facts and figures. Are you saying that everyone that looks at port is insane? Do you know how many people view porn?

Meh, I'm used to being called insane

[lizzy16]

Theres a difference between porn and a naked body.

If the body is objectified to look sexual or otherwise its Porn. A naked body isn't porn nor do I believe its 'disgusting'

[slamjet]

Meh, I'm used to being called insane

You're insane. Truly, truly insane.

[slamjet]

Theres a difference between porn and a naked body.

If the body is objectified to look sexual or otherwise its Porn. A naked body isn't porn nor do I believe its 'disgusting'

So if a person takes a "tasteful" picture of a nude woman and publishes it, and others use it for nefarious purposes, is it still not porn? Where's the line? In my view, there is no image of the female form that is not meant to be sensual. Thus, it is all porn.

[lizzy16]

So if a person takes a "tasteful" picture of a nude woman and publishes it, and others use it for nefarious purposes, is it still not porn? Where's the line? In my view, there is no image of the female form that is not meant to be sensual. Thus, it is all porn.

Okay, what about a picture of a naked child? Is that porn?

Porn is something that makes people feel sexual feelings. To some a picture of a cat could be there porn( yes, there are people like that.) You can use anything for nefarious purposes.

The line depends on the person in some cases. In others its more cut and dry.

What about the statue of david or other art of nude women? What about the painting or picture of a naked pregnant women? My mom has a picture of herself nude while she was pregnant with me. It's not nasty and captures the feeling of motherhood. Is that porn?

Obviously in cases involving women posed in sexual positions that would be porn. Plain and simple.

And, if the statue of david turns you on then that, to you is porn.

Edited June 19, 2011 by lizzy16

[Soulsearcher]

So if a person takes a "tasteful" picture of a nude woman and publishes it, and others use it for nefarious purposes, is it still not porn? Where's the line? In my view, there is no image of the female form that is not meant to be sensual. Thus, it is all porn.

This could make an argument for the image being ok and the fault actually being in the mind of the viewer. The image isn't sensual until it's perceived sensual? As said in YOUR view these images are all sensual, so is it the images or how they are being perceived?

[slamjet]

Innocence no longer exists. Example: there can be a class on painting with a nude female model, but what is being captured? The female form? Sensuality? Purity? Relaxation? Does it matter?

My argument is that in this day and age, with what the world has evolved into, there is little difference between intent and perception. Unfortunately, they take parallel paths.