Once great marriage now more like a domestic partnership

[Losthurtandconfused]

Please forgive me if this is too sensetive a subject, or if I am not posting it in the appropriate place. Maybe it's not appropriate subject matter to post at all, I don't know.

My question is: why am I posting this in a public forum? I really don't know. I don't know how I can possibly explain the complexity of the situation here. I guess I'm hoping that getting it off my chest will somehow be theraputic. I guess I'm hoping that what I'm going through will echo with someone else, and I'll find out that I'm not alone. Maybe someone has figured out what to do.

My wife and I have been married for several years. At one time, we had the best marriage of anyone I knew. For years now its felt more like a domestic partnership instead. There are 4 or 5 issues, but it can all be boiled down to two things for me:

1) I grew up LDS, and so had the ideal and personal conviction that physical relations were to be saved for marriage. I struggled with staying chaste, but was able to do so. My wife is the only woman I have ever been with, and I am so grateful this is the case. I just assumed all my growing up years that my eventual wife would be on the same page, and my efforts to stay clean would be rewarded with a wonderful active sex life (ladies, I am willing to bet that the majority of your husband’s thought the same thing). Understand, I know what is right and wrong, I know what is moral and what's not, I understand what is appropriate with the covenants we have made and what isn't, etc. None of this is a problem. The problem is that for the first year or so of marriage the intimacy was just what I had expected it to be, and actually FAR more, as I found that marital physical relations were not just sex, but actually a beautiful intimacy that always made me feel so close to her, so safe, and such a sense of belonging. Intimacy is not what we were all about of course, but an important part of newlywed life. We had balance in our lives. But now, after years of rejecting my advances, I have just given up. I couldn't handle the hurt of it anymore. And on the very rare occasion that we are physical in the bedroom, it’s just not emotionally the same. My wife knows that I am always ready, willing and able, and she has no idea what it's like to be rejected even once, let alone rejected repeatedly. I guess, I wouldn't want to be with a partner not emotionally into it either though. That takes away the very best part of intimacy, and that closeness; that complete giving of one's self that makes that special bond possible. Without the physical OR emotional needs being met, I've found that it can make me angry and aggressive. I put forth great effort to not be that way towards my wife and children (though I am from time to time - no abuse or anything like that, just short temperedness and impatience). Though I know it’s not "healthy", if I could completely kill my need for intimacy, I would. This intimacy problem could maybe be worked on, but for problem number 2.

2) My wife takes EVERYTHING very very personally, making communication extremely difficult! The other day I told my 4 year old that our home is not a peaceful place at all when he screams (he screams A LOT, for plethora of reasons!). My wife took that as a derogatory reflection on her parenting skills. It upset her for hours. She has always been sensitive, but not nearly THIS sensitive. In the past I have tried to lovingly address issues here and there with her, but it always blew up out of proportion, and essentially no change was ever made. After a short time it’s like we never had the discussion, everything was back to the way it was before, and we went through all of it for nothing. After getting this same result time after time after time, I am hesitant to bring up anything anymore. I am too beat down, and it doesn't seem to make a difference anyway.

Counseling... yes, she needs it (and I probably do too), but she is completely unwilling to go. She thinks counselors/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc. are all crazy and she has no faith that any of them could help her (we've talked about her going to address some other issues, not the two above specifically).

I love my wife dearly and I believe that we will be happy in the eternities. Plus, having gone through what I did when my dad left (I was 7), I will NOT do that to my kids. I could never imagine living without them, or my wife for that matter. So, leaving and cheating are just not options. So, from my perspective, that puts me in what seems an unsolvable conundrum. Basically, life is about enduring to the end, or so it feels. Isn't that what people who are old and just about to die are supposed to do? Suffer through and not lose faith? I'm in my late 30's. I presumably have a long way ahead of me. I don’t know what to do.

[trubludru]

You have my sympathies, I'm not sure what the best soluation is. I am currently experiencing a situation of my own where my wife has taken my efforts to try and help improve our relationship as a personal attack. So again you have my sympathies.

[Gwen]

How many children do you have? What is the age difference? Do you have any idea why she stopped wanting to be intimate? That kind of change is usually for a reason. If she were to post here what the problem is what would she say (or does she even see a problem)?

Have you read any of the books suggested in this thread http://www.lds.net/forums/marriage-relationship-advice/25622-resources-links-your-marriage.html

Ones to consider are 'and they were not ashamed' 'love languages' and 'love dare', off the top of my head all those could be relevant to your situation.

[girlygirl]

Losthurtandconfused,

this seems pretty normal to me, and happens to more people then just you, and certainly should not be a dealbreaker (I am referring to point 1). Intimacy is wonderful at first, and then once the initial 'honey moon' stage is over, its hard to rekindle those feelings. Sounds like your wife probably has alot on her plate with kids and being a mom and wife.

She resists your advances but I am sure loves you very much. As a female I can tell you she is not trying to hurt your feelings, but it might be hard to have the same sex as you did when you were first intimate. You know how you get the butterfly feeling at first when you are inlove and then it grows into a deeper love? It sounds like you are still chasing for that butterfly feeling when that stage of your life should mature into a new one. No I am not saying your sex life should be non existent. But other things will take priority and you will have to work harder for it.

Maybe go online and try to pin point what you can do to cater to her feelings of intimacy? Ei- I read that if you are full of food your libido goes WAY down. Are you asking for it at the wrong times? I just know me personally sometimes I dont want to- but I would definitely hope my partner would understand and not be hurt or angry!

I think you guys need alot of compromise and need to work on that a little. Maybe ask her what you can do to make it better. I know it is not your fault but if you are the one complaining then you are the one who needs to bridge the gap.

Hope that helps a little!

[applepansy]

Start with your wife. Talk to her like you've talked here. If you have to write her a letter to get it down without the emotions interfering (from her or you) then do so. I know my parents (in their 70s) have always gotten along best when they had to write letters to each other.

For a young mother with young children its very hard to keep the romance going, especially if you feel (even if its not the case) that you're not doing all you could be doing and its not enough. Its easy to get defensive. No matter what we do its never enough. Its also hard to feel sexy when you've been dealing with little ones and cleaning chores all day long.

Then...Add in the HORMONES.

To do list;

1. wife...letter? 1a. patience

2. bishop

3. maybe a visit with the doctor

4. counseling

[Backroads]

I think it was And They Were Not Ashamed that mentioned that sometimes women just need to remember they'll probably enjoy sex once they're actually in the act.

[Gwen]

My first inclination is to go with it's hormones or there is more to the relationship issues than is being told.... or both.

I know a man that could have written something similar. In that situation it was a combination. It started with hormone issues for her (after kids) and he didn't handle that well. His reaction to it ate away at the relationship until it got to the point that the hormones weren't the issue but now the emotions of the relationship. Evenutally you end up with one big tangled mess that has to be sorted out and there is no easy answer.

[Suzie]

When someone is that sensitive they're either very hurt for something or extremely stressed out and you haven't realize the extent. I lean towards the second.

[slamjet]

My .02

Sound like she's feeling unsure and insecure. Wife's will be intimate if they feel they are being taken care of. Sometimes it's vacuuming the floor, sometimes it's a bit more. All the time it's doing a bunch of little things and not feeling that every time their husband touches them it's to get them in the sack. Are you doing date nights? Are you praying together? Are you just cuddling just because? Are you doing a bunch of things around the home just to help out and not make her feel she's failing? Are you touching her on the back and saying "I love you" just because?

I found in analyzing my own failed marriage that there are things I can blame on my ex, but I hold all the cards as to how I treated her. And it wasn't as good as it should have been. At times, it was just downright awful. You're not there yet. Just do things to help her and making her feel secure in herself, her motherhood and her relationship with you. It will take a while, maybe a long while. But I can promise you it is a whole lot better than the alternative.

[skippy740]

I frequently recommend this set of free recordings. The direct message doesn't sound like it applies because it's geared towards those who have pornography issues. However, it does address other areas such as marital intimacy and expectations of boys as they grow up.

I think it ought to help, that is, if you both listen to it. But maybe you should listen first and then ask her to listen afterwards.

A Better Mormon - Become Part of the Solution of Pornography Addiction

[rameumptom]

Start dating your wife again. Romance her. Focus on becoming her best friend, not just for sex. Laugh with her and have fun. Over time, the other things will be fulfilled. She's sensitive to criticism, possibly because the relationship has gone negative in many ways. Let her know you realy appreciate what she does.

Allow here some emotional periods. Hormones are tricky things and can make a person happy one moment and in tears the next.

Romance and date her like you did when you were single.

[MrShorty]

I feel your pain. A sexless marriage can be hard. A couple of thoughts:

1) You can only control you. For the most part, I agree with those who say to do your best to be kind to your wife, romance her, help her, and otherwise be the best husband you can be. It won't guarantee success -- not every sexless marriage is because of a bad relationship. But your behavior is something you can control.

One caution with this -- don't let this deteriorate into, "someday when you are a perfect husband, we'll talk about reviving our sexual relationship." I don't think that is right, fair, or practical.

2) Other things, like depression, can reduce/kill libido. Some of your description of your wife suggests that this may be true with her. I hope you can continue to find compassion for her, and I also hope that her attitude toward counseling and treatment (if diagnosed with depression or whatever) will change. You can't force her to go, be we can still hope.

Along those lines, I'm not sure it would be bad for you to visit with someone on your own to see if there are any skills you can learn for helping her and for dealing with the difficulties you face. I have considered it myself, though I haven't taken that plunge, yet.

3)

Though I know it’s not "healthy", if I could completely kill my need for intimacy, I would.

I've sometimes felt the same way. No advice, just commiserating.

4)

Without the physical OR emotional needs being met, I've found that it can make me angry and aggressive. I put forth great effort to not be that way towards my wife and children (though I am from time to time - no abuse or anything like that, just short temperedness and impatience).

I've felt the same way, whether it is right or wrong. Sometimes it seems that we always line up the chain of events as be nice, helpful, romantic, etc. -> she* feels better about relationship -> sex drive returns and sexual relationship improves. I think it can also work in reverse: improve sexual relationship -> he* feels better about relationship -> he's* nicer, happier, more romantic, etc. If you get it working in both directions, it can create a positive feedback loop.

* - just to note that I'm aware that not all sexless relationship are "stereotypical" with the woman as refuser. pronouns could easily be interchanged.

Some of that's not real advice, I know. Just to let you know that you are not alone in this struggle. It is estimated that some 15-20% of couples are in sexless relationships (defined as 10 or fewer sexual encounters per year). It is sometimes hard to stay "invested" in the relationship. I wish you luck and hope that God helps your situation turn around.

Not sure if any of that really helps.

[AGStacker]

When someone is that sensitive they're either very hurt for something or extremely stressed out and you haven't realize the extent. I lean towards the second.

ORRRRR... we aren't perfect here and a THIRD option is she has committed a horrible sin and feels overwhelmingly guilty for it. I am NOT saying this is the case but could be as likely as option 1 and 2.

[PV2004]

I have not had a chance to read all the replies so I am not sure if someone has said what I am about to say but here are my two cents.

First, in regards to your wife taking everything personally I can feel you pain and frustration. Unfortunately I found that to be the case with my x-wife. She took, not everything, but a lot of things personally and it sounds like she reacted similarly to your wife. I found it difficult to talk to her about sensitive subjects and that she held on to the hurt for long periods of time. She even had a hard time forgiving me for things (I didn't do anything serious or anything like that, but rather I may have been joking around or something and all of a sudden I hit a sensitive subject and she would get upset with me and couldn't forgive me for the comment, which was never meant to hurt her) Anyway, I digress. It got to a point where I had to watch my words and how I talked to her because if I didn't phrase things correctly she could get upset.

In the end, I believe she was very insecure with who she was and therefore took a lot of things personally. I won't go into details because it will take too long but after our seperation, I told her she needed to get help because she may have biopolar. She had been preliminarily diagnost with biopolar but never went through all the testing. Anyway I told she should go in and get tested. Well she did and the specialist came back and said she didn't suffer from bipolar but rather that she didn't know who she was, what she wanted, and was a people pleaser. Again there is too much to go into but it made sense to me. If she didn't know who she was and was insecure with herself, if someone commented on something she did, she would react to it for good or bad,even if the person making the comment had no intention of hurting her. In other words her feelings at any given time were always dependent on the feedback she got from others rather than someting more solid. If someone knows, I mean really knows, they are a child of God that persons happiness comes more from that knowledge rather than what others thing of them. A great example of that is the book "You Are Special" but Max Lucado. It is a kids book but teaches a powerful lesson.

There are definitly other reason why she could take things personally, but I honest believe that if someone is offended by a comment most of the time that person is probably insecure with themselves in regards to that topic / comment. Try giving her positive feedback in regards to things she does well. Tell her the great qualities she has and help build her up. My question to you is did she have a rough time growing up, did her parents support her, had she had a lot of negative feedback in the past? That was the case with my x and that is why she never really had a firm foundation of who she was.

Second, in regards to the sexless marage. My guess is that may not necessirally be you but she may have other issues, depression, stress from the kids, etc she is dealing with. Try and find that and help her deal with it. You need to remember though and acknowledge that what turns you on doesn't necessarially turn her on. She will more likely get turn on acts of kindness toward her or the family (helping out with the dishes, kids, and so on). Anyway I am not expert so I won't go into much more but I do want to say one other thing on this.

I can't remember where I read it but it was an article on sex in marriage. Basically the article was about a couple and how they had a strong sex life in their marriage. The couple said they realized and acknowledged that sometimes the husband may be in the mood and the wife wasn't, or the wife was in the mood and the husband wasn't, or they both were in the mood. The thing that really stood out to me was their reactions to when one was in the mood and the other wasn't. The wife said she sometimes she came home from a long days work and really wasn't in the mood for sex and her husband was. She said in those times instead of arguing about it, she would tell her husband she wasn't in the mood and wouldn't be into that much but basically said let's have sex and you do all the work! Sometimes the tables were turned and the husband had the same reaction and let his wife do all the work. In the end though they helped each other with their sexual needs and realized that sometime the other person is just not going to be into that much.

I know this isn't the same as your case but my point is you need to stop thinking about what you "thought" you sex life would be like and start acknowledging that people are different sexually and have different sexual needs. My belief is that to have a secessful sexual life in marriage you must address these differences and realize it is not necessarially personal when someone is not in the mood but inherent differences.

Like most have said, I would recommend looking for help, ie bishop, counselors and so on.

Good luck.

[ruthiechan]

I used to take things very personally. And, oh, if my husband said no to sex I felt it was an outright rejection of me. He had to TELL me that he's not rejecting me, but that he's just not in the mood right now, but that he still loves me and will want to later. He had to remind me of all the good things, that he was not attacking me personally, in order to be able to talk to me about a sensitive issue. Now, I finally get it. It took a while, but I got it.

I do think that seeking advice from the Bishop would be a good thing.

[ztodd]

Sexual intimacy is very connected with emotional feelings toward each other, which by the way is a big reason why I believe we are to save such a sacred act for our husband or wife. This means that people like to be romanced, and made to feel important- especially women I think- to lead them to want to be physcally intimate. Maybe she's feeling some kind of resentment or detachment right now which is killing her desires. I like the advice that's been given already to pretend you're back to pre-marriage courting again- even including abstinence until you can both feel emotionally bonded again. This may be hard if you are sexually addicted (I believe this happens even in a monogamous relationship), but remember that abstinence is what is expected of all people who are not married. If they can do it, you can do it for a time. Think of her feelings and needs before your own.

[Losthurtandconfused]

It really does help to know that others are going or have gone through similar situations. I am not glad to know that anyone else has gone through this, but I'm glad to know that I'm not alone, which is a feeling I’ve become very familiar with for a lot of years now. So, a very sincere THANK YOU to all of you that have commiserated, shared experiences and feelings of such a personal nature and offered advice.

One thing that I want to express… I’m not talking about just “sex” – that word cheapens it. I’m talking about the deepest levels of love and connection that a husband and wife could ever have with each other, at least as far as I’ve ever known. It truly is a spiritual experience for me, or use to be. Not in the sense that the Holy Spirit is present (I’ve never been able to wrap my mind around that one - not that what is occurring between husband and wife is wrong, just that it is intensely personal and intimate) but spiritual in the sense that the connection is so much deeper than just the physical. I’m not looking to go back to newlywed levels of physical activity – I’m not chasing the ghost of an adolescent’s unrealistic, idealized vision of sex life. I quite honestly couldn’t even keep up to our newlywed pace anymore. And I don’t think I’m being overly sensitive about the problem. It's difficult sometimes though, inspite of this, not to feel like some kind of a pervert addict when discussing the issue here. I have to remind myself that is not the case, and we have never done anything that would violate or Temple covenants or anything at all like that. The inappropriate and darker aspects of “sex” just are not, nor ever have been a part of our lives or our situation, if that makes sense. I can also understand a person not being in the mood, etc. I literally took a LOT of rejection for years before I notified my wife that the ball will just have to be in her court. I think it would be painful for anyone to experience what I have, and I'm willing to bet a marriage ender for many. I have been very patient, actually, which even my wife has acknowledged a time or two.

I really try to do most of the suggestions many have made, and always have. I’m not perfect, of course. I make mistakes and if my wife comes to me with a concern I do my best to listen to her, try to understand her perspective (validate her feelings), and try to change. I apologize for my mistakes, and try to make reparation. She always thanks me for how I handle these situations, but she just doesn’t seem to be able to take any constructive criticism, no matter how I try to present it. By the way, I am a pretty easy going person; definitely not a nit-picker.

In terms of discussing it (at least the intimacy side of things) with the Bishop… as good as a Bishop as he is, he isn’t a very “feeling” kind of person. Additionally, I’m in the Bishopric (you thought the Bishopric had perfect lives, didn’t you?), and don’t think I can discuss this with a man that I’ve worked so closely with. That may sound weird, and maybe it’s just me, but that’s the way it is for now, unfortunately.

PV2004, your thoughts are striking chords with me. My wife and your ex do sound very similar. My wife did have an emotionally difficult childhood, and grew up with a lot of insecurity. She has been fearful of losing me since before we were married, thinking that she doesn’t deserve me. You didn’t state this about your ex, but my wife often has unrealistic expectations. I can see that maybe she is struggling to figure out who she is. I’ve often wondered if she suddenly felt guilty for the physical aspects of intimacy because of the nearly overnight change in her attitude towards it and willingness to engage in it (I have no doubt in my mind that we were on the "same page" for the first year or so of our marriage). I don’t know for sure what happened because it’s one of the topics that she has a very difficult time discussing. I do have to be very careful about how I word things, and even comments on seemingly completely unrelated topics are somehow twisted in her mind to be about her. I don’t remember the comment I made, but just a few weeks ago I said something that had nothing to do with “us”, and she thought that I didn’t love her anymore. We talked about it and I finally was able to make her understand what my comment really was about. Then I asked her how that one comment, as she originally understood it, could make her doubt the more than 15 years of words, actions, and deeds expressing my love to her. She couldn’t answer the question, but acknowledge that it did indeed make her doubt my love. I'm still bewildered about that.

Though I’m sure it was still very difficult, I imagine it was somewhat easier to tell your ex that she needed help after your separated – the relationship is already against the ropes at that point (please forgive me if I am trivializing it – I don’t mean to). Looking back though, have you thought of a way that you could have approached her before separation? As I mentioned in my original post, the couple of times I’ve been able to broach the subject of counseling have not gone well.

[shine7]

Losthurtandconfused......so glad you were brave and shared here.

I also had an awful childhood and have suffered from having unrealistic expectations for marriage and being happy. I also can not take criticism....my dad gave me enough of that for several lifetimes and I have a hard time feeling worthy to even breath at times. But....my husband also came from a difficult background. Double whammy!!!!!

PLEASE.....go get counseling for YOU......whether or not she ever does.

I deeply admire that you will not leave your marriage.

My dh and I went through horrible times that completely affected our intimacy; and what kept us going was: couple prayer and scripture every morning, then family scripture/prayer daily, weekly FHE, church together. And finding ways to work together as a couple and family, such as our garden, yard, housework, etc. If he was in the garage and I couldn't help because of lack of knowledge, I'd take out lemonade and ask if I could hand him things or if he wanted space/time alone?? He pitched in with cooking voluntarily at times, or just started doing dishes after dinner. Over a period of many years, God truly blessed us: He softened us, helped us forgive. We ended up going to counseling together eventually, and that process also changed us. We were able to survive the horrible desert storm, thanks to God. I will never forget the day and where I was in our home, when my dh came to me in humility and a softened heart. I understand more now as to how my challenges were affecting his moods......for a long time I only understood how his challenges were affecting me and I was already bogged down with a ton of unsolved hurt and pain......a lot of that I was not aware of at the time.

We both learned that as we got help to change ourself, it affected our relationship with each other.

We learned that good sex for me as wife started way before getting to the bedroom......and took patience on dh part....but so so so worth it!! After all these years, I'm still very attracted to my dh. We love each other more now, and understand one another way more. We are still growing as a couple; much ahead to work out.

So many layers of healing in this life!! Your wife is extra sensitive for reasons........keep being patient without pushing.....I know.....I'm asking you to be a miracle worker!

Do not keep going on without some help for yourself, dear man.....the fact that you came on here is indeed evidence that you are at the end of your rope and tying knot after knot to hang on. When you get counseling, you may wonder why you waited so long!!

Yes, you are right.....intimacy is not just sex, but often includes it. Also.....intimacy and what I call real sex is eternally based (why I think satan works so hard to cheapen it). When we die, that pull of love/sex/intimacy will not end, for it is spiritually based.

Edited July 27, 2011 by shine7