Packing heat at church

[skippy740]

Yes I do. :)

The brother didn't have it out for everyone to see, but I did see it. It's not like he was in uniform. He was just wearing a regular suit and tie.

[Blackmarch]

I've had my handgun carry permit for several years now and carry almost everywhere I go, including church on Sundays. It's not something I announce to the members, my wife doesn't even always know when I carry. Just curious as to your thoughts. Do you carry to church? Any reaction from other members?

Depends on what the current situation is. I personally don't have anything against it. I'd say tho unless you have a real reason to bring it in the building (like being a police officer or something where you are required to have it on your person at certain times), leave it in the car - that is what i would do.

[Spartan117]

My brother-in-law is a cop and he had his gun on him in during my sealing. We live in Utah, I guess the laws here are a bit different than other places. He can pretty much bring his firearm wherever he wants. He wears it at all times, on or off duty no matter where he goes.

[Suzie]

My brother-in-law is a cop and he had his gun on him in during my sealing. We live in Utah, I guess the laws here are a bit different than other places. He can pretty much bring his firearm wherever he wants. He wears it at all times, on or off duty no matter where he goes.

MOE posted this policy earlier on this thread:

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

Selected Church Policies 

So no issues with your brother in law.

[JohnnyRudick]

I've had my handgun carry permit for several years now and carry almost everywhere I go, including church on Sundays. It's not something I announce to the members, my wife doesn't even always know when I carry. Just curious as to your thoughts. Do you carry to church? Any reaction from other members?

It is amazing (and comforting) to find out how much "heat" is carried at Church:cool:

[JohnnyRudick]

For all those times that the King of England gets in your face during Sacrament.

Not worried today about the "King of England". Perhaps another day?

[JohnnyRudick]

The guy who robbed your copy repairman was violating church policy by bringing a weapon into the building.

Now, removing my tongue from my cheek:

Having just written the meetinghouse security plan for my ward, I can't tell you how many times I've read the phrase "give up your property, not your life." Pulling a gun on an armed assailant greatly increases the odds that the assailant will actually use his weapon.

Statistically, it is far more likely that the assailant will be apprehended without violence if the property is turned over and the police called immediately.

In this instance, the person wielding the weapon was going to inflict harm anyway. He intended to go and inflict harm. Having pulled a gun on him would have ended in more bloodshed and violence.

Contrary to the beliefs of many, pulling out weapons doesn't solve problems. Very often, it creates more than it solves.

But I think it's folly to extrapolate extreme data points in the way you do. Essentially you're saying that because there were two incidents of violence in 468,000,000 church hours in one year that we should start carrying weapons to church to defend ourselves. When you look at the data in its entirety, you sound a bit ridiculous.

I will say this, however: in cases where an individual has reason to believe that someone may have interest in harming him, I think it is reasonable for a bishop to authorize the individual to carry his weapon. There is a member of the forum in such a situation, and I think it'd be these situations that warrant an exception.

I believe the time is soon upon us that the man who pulls a gun on you at Church is not out to rob you. He is pulling the weapon because you are a Christian.

[Soulsearcher]

I believe the time is soon upon us that the man who pulls a gun on you at Church is not out to rob you. He is pulling the weapon because you are a Christian.

Or because of disagreements over doctrine.

[Saldrin]

Alma 43 45-47

Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a abetter cause, for they were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

Cant afford a gun so I learned to use my hands...

[Still_Small_Voice]

Contrary to the beliefs of many, pulling out weapons doesn't solve problems. Very often, it creates more than it solves.

I wish I could agree with this statement. We live in a telestial world and some people are just evil. I like criminals to not know who is armed and who is not.

[JohnnyRudick]

Or because of disagreements over doctrine.

I talk to people every once in a while who believe very strongly that it is religious people who are responsible for all the worlds ills.

Many say in one way or another.

If they (religious people) would only just disappear in what many call a "Rapture"

or if not maybe something more extreme will someday have to be carried out.

"Not all (religions) of them, just some of them.

Without religion there would be no one claiming the true way of God and shoving it in everyone's faces.

It would force secularity, something that desperately needs to happen.

It would take away a certain area of discrimination.

Of course the world will still be messed up and humanity lost but it would be a start."

The dream is this

"Imagine there's no Heaven

It's easy if you try

No hell below us

Above us only sky

Imagine all the people

Living for today

Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace "

I have had many say that is the only way to peace.

Kill all religious people.

Many Christians are considered "religious".

[JohnnyRudick]

I wish I could agree with this statement. We live in a telestial world and some people are just evil. I like criminals to not know who is armed and who is not.

I want the possible0wrong doer to know that it is possible that someone

may be armed, not necessarily who.

[Soulsearcher]

I talk to people every once in a while who believe very strongly that it is religious people who are responsible for all the worlds ills.

Many say in one way or another.

If they (religious people) would only just disappear in what many call a "Rapture"

or if not maybe something more extreme will someday have to be carried out.

"Not all (religions) of them, just some of them.

Without religion there would be no one claiming the true way of God and shoving it in everyone's faces.

It would force secularity, something that desperately needs to happen.

It would take away a certain area of discrimination.

Of course the world will still be messed up and humanity lost but it would be a start."

The dream is this

"Imagine there's no Heaven

It's easy if you try

No hell below us

Above us only sky

Imagine all the people

Living for today

Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace "

I have had many say that is the only way to peace.

Kill all religious people.

Many Christians are considered "religious".

LOL i should have been a bit more clear. While i don't disagree there are people who would shoot you because you are christian, i was more saying that it could also be another christian shooting you over a disagreement in doctrine, heck even another LDS could be the one pulling the trigger. Heated debate + firearm = less than good possibilities. Also i talk to quite a few people who blame the "heathens" for the state of the world and want them done away with so gods people don't have to suffer. lol so Not sure giving god's people guns makes me feel any better

[NeuroTypical]

i was more saying that it could also be another christian shooting you over a disagreement in doctrine, heck even another LDS could be the one pulling the trigger. Heated debate + firearm = less than good possibilities.

Soul, the more I read your posts, the more I wonder if you actually know anybody who carries concealed. You seem to have a notion about folks that is just foreign to my experience and thinking. Could I ask a few questions, to see where you're coming from?

1. In your experience, when you've witnessed or participated in heated debates when nobody is armed, do they often turn violent? When folks around you argue and get mad, do they start pulling out fists or reaching for lead pipes or something in order to 'win' the argument?

If the answer is yes, then I can understand your opinion. If you're around immature people who get violent in a simple argument, I can understand why you'd want them far away from a deadly weapon.

If the answer is no, then that tells me that most of the heated debates you've experienced before, have not ended in violence. That would match my experience, because people get mad and ticked off all the time, without getting violent. Even when the debate involves an insufferable jerk or two - rarely does anyone direct violence at the jerk.

2. So, if the answer to question 1 is no, you don't see a lot of heated debates turning violent, then do you think the chance for violence suddenly goes up just because someone has a firearm in their posession?

3. If yes, why? I mean, the shouting angry people weren't punching or biting or running each over with cars or throwing chairs or using the keys in their pockets or anything before. Why do you figure they'll go for their guns, but not go for all of the other weapons at their disposal?

Also i talk to quite a few people who blame the "heathens" for the state of the world and want them done away with so gods people don't have to suffer.

I'm interested in these people - could you give a few more details? Who are these people? Do they honestly wish folks were dead?

Interested,

LM

[Soulsearcher]

Soul, the more I read your posts, the more I wonder if you actually know anybody who carries concealed. You seem to have a notion about folks that is just foreign to my experience and thinking. Could I ask a few questions, to see where you're coming from?

1. In your experience, when you've witnessed or participated in heated debates when nobody is armed, do they often turn violent? When folks around you argue and get mad, do they start pulling out fists or reaching for lead pipes or something in order to 'win' the argument?

If the answer is yes, then I can understand your opinion. If you're around immature people who get violent in a simple argument, I can understand why you'd want them far away from a deadly weapon.

If the answer is no, then that tells me that most of the heated debates you've experienced before, have not ended in violence. That would match my experience, because people get mad and ticked off all the time, without getting violent. Even when the debate involves an insufferable jerk or two - rarely does anyone direct violence at the jerk.

2. So, if the answer to question 1 is no, you don't see a lot of heated debates turning violent, then do you think the chance for violence suddenly goes up just because someone has a firearm in their posession?

3. If yes, why? I mean, the shouting angry people weren't punching or biting or running each over with cars or throwing chairs or using the keys in their pockets or anything before. Why do you figure they'll go for their guns, but not go for all of the other weapons at their disposal?

I'm interested in these people - could you give a few more details? Who are these people? Do they honestly wish folks were dead?

Interested,

LM

Yes I have seen more than a few heated situations turn to violence. I've seen more than a few weapons pulled and had a few pulled on me. I also have seen people who use weapons as tools for intimidation hoping the other person doesn't have one. Fire arms have a larger intimidation factor than most weapons and are widely considered a better weapon than keys or lead pipes. Up here there really is no widely legal way to conceal firearms, so most times we see them drawn it's someone who already doesn't care about the other person in any way. I've been around firearms my entire life and have never had a desire to carry one out side the practice range or competitions. Even when i have lived in high crime areas i don't want a fire arm to enter into the equation.

As for the types of people you are asking about they seem to exist in many faiths and walks of life. People who think the only way to quiet their "enemies" is to take their lives. Theology, different moral standards, and any number of other silly reasons. Do they honestly wish people different from themselves were dead? I can't speak to what's really in their hearts. I can take them at their word. I can attest to Johnny's comments about people who would have no issue possibly killing christians for just being christians, and on the flip side I've heard more than enough comments directly and indirectly from some of "god's" people from any number of denominations calling for or taking credit for deaths of abortion supporters, gay, and even members of other faiths. Some people are quick to condemn muslims while forgetting that there are extreme members inside every faith and while we'd like to think those who we think are like us and hold our values couldn't do such things some of them could murder thinking it's god's will.

[Traveler]

I must be careful because in reading opinions I find that there are few that understand “guns” or what happens to a person when they go through the process of deciding to take another human life - regardless of the reason. I grew up with guns in a family that relied in part on food obtained through hunting. Many idolize the hunger gather societies. By time I was 12 I owned my own rifle and I was a good hunter - as accomplished with a bow as a gun. It was not uncommon in my youth to go camping and not take food - to rely only on our hunting skills.

As a teenager I made a couple of guns from scratch of my own design. I am quite sure I could make a functional gun from stuff in 80% of the garages of this country. This has prompted me to wonder about why anyone thinks gun laws will keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Also as a teenager I have been present on a few occasions when a firearm accidently discharged in a house. I have often wondered why in movies there could be gun battles with people hiding behind walls and furniture. I remember well when a 12 gauge shot gun went off in a friend’s home. It made a hole 3 feet in diameter in the 3rd wall it went through.

When I served in the military I learned a whole different concept about guns. For example I learned that in heavy firefights that most of the deaths will result from what is called friendly fire. The reason is that we humans act differently when we are filled with adrenalin.

For the most part I think that some people that carry or desire to carry are a little over the top. If a person does not maintain a minimum of 1 hour a month in training - I do not believe they should carry. I also believe that if a person has not already determined under what circumstances they will take another human life - they should not carry. If you are not willing and ready to kill another person - don’t carry. At this point in my life I do not carry - kind of like the anti-Nephi-Lehites - I would rather die than take another life. I do understand that there are some for the security of our nation and society must carry and I respect them but for many that carry? Well, to be honest - I do not trust that mentality as I use to but then I do not support laws to limit the right and responsibility to carry. In short - I am not really on any side in the whole debate. My concern is that I am not sure those on either side really understand what they are asking and expecting of those that are not on their same side.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Yes I have seen more than a few heated situations turn to violence. I've seen more than a few weapons pulled and had a few pulled on me. I also have seen people who use weapons as tools for intimidation hoping the other person doesn't have one. Fire arms have a larger intimidation factor than most weapons and are widely considered a better weapon than keys or lead pipes. Up here there really is no widely legal way to conceal firearms, so most times we see them drawn it's someone who already doesn't care about the other person in any way. I've been around firearms my entire life and have never had a desire to carry one out side the practice range or competitions. Even when i have lived in high crime areas i don't want a fire arm to enter into the equation.

As for the types of people you are asking about they seem to exist in many faiths and walks of life. People who think the only way to quiet their "enemies" is to take their lives. Theology, different moral standards, and any number of other silly reasons. Do they honestly wish people different from themselves were dead? I can't speak to what's really in their hearts. I can take them at their word. I can attest to Johnny's comments about people who would have no issue possibly killing christians for just being christians, and on the flip side I've heard more than enough comments directly and indirectly from some of "god's" people from any number of denominations calling for or taking credit for deaths of abortion supporters, gay, and even members of other faiths. Some people are quick to condemn muslims while forgetting that there are extreme members inside every faith and while we'd like to think those who we think are like us and hold our values couldn't do such things some of them could murder thinking it's god's will.

Your post seems a little fantastic to me - now many persons have you known personally that have been delibertly killed by someone else?

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

Your post seems a little fantastic to me - now many persons have you known personally that have been delibertly killed by someone else?

The Traveler

Where did i say anyone was killed. I said there are enough people who claim to want to kill. That's what i was asked about and that's what i commented on, intent, not action.

[NeuroTypical]

Thank you for the response, Soul. I may have missed it in another post - but where abouts do you live? No legal conceal carry, people not caring about each other, lots of violence - I'd say Los Angeles except you said 'up here'...

Not sure giving god's people guns makes me feel any better

After the experiences you describe, I think I understand. I'd ask you to consider something that I believe to be very important. The difference between "giving people guns", and a responsible citizen exercising his/her right to obtain one through legal means. I've met plenty of both, and I am an example of the latter.

How many legally-permitted conceal-carry holders have you known? I'm talking private citizens - not law enforcement or PI or military. How many of the acts of violence or intimidation you've witnessed, have been from people carrying weapons legally?

Permit holders have lower rates of crime - both violent and nonviolent - than nonpermit holders in their same demographic. Every study produced shows this, and it's consistent with my personal experience and the dozen or so anecdotes I've personally gathered. If you want to be around civil, mature, polite, calm people, be around permit holders. Nobody 'gave them guns'. I wonder if that's the difference.

[blackknight5k]

I have a carry permit, I don't carry into the church because I don't have a jacket (nor want one, really). However, I want those of you that claim that people carrying guns just escalates arguments to cite sources. In all honesty, you're all talking out of your rear ends. Just because someone chooses to carry a firearm doesn't make them quicker to anger nor does pulling your firearm result in them getting shot "more often than not".

Here is a link to a PDF with more gunfacts than you'll probably read (honestly, I doubt you'll even click on the link) - all statistics are cited.

It's honestly insulting to me that you would insinuate that I would, just because I am carrying a firearm, escalate a simple heated debate or argument to the point of violence and possible murder. I am a level headed human being, as most people are. We have been told to protect our families even unto bloodshed, it doesn't say "well just when they are in your home". Please stop the ignorance.

[Traveler]

Where did i say anyone was killed. I said there are enough people who claim to want to kill. That's what i was asked about and that's what i commented on, intent, not action.

This statememt

As for the types of people you are asking about they seem to exist in many faiths and walks of life. People who think the only way to quiet their "enemies" is to take their lives. Theology, different moral standards, and any number of other silly reasons.

and this statememt

I can attest to Johnny's comments about people who would have no issue possibly killing christians for just being christians

In all my life I have never ever met a single person of the "type" you are talking about and I have met and talked with convicted murders in prison. Never have I know or heard of a murder to quiet someone over beliefs. I am not saying such mentalities do not exist - just that I have never encountered it.

So in truth you cannot attest about people who would have no issue in killing a Christian for being a Christian - you really have no experience where this has happened. That is what I meant by being a little fantastic. Thank you for clearing that up - I feel a little better now.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I have a carry permit, I don't carry into the church because I don't have a jacket (nor want one, really). However, I want those of you that claim that people carrying guns just escalates arguments to cite sources. In all honesty, you're all talking out of your rear ends. Just because someone chooses to carry a firearm doesn't make them quicker to anger nor does pulling your firearm result in them getting shot "more often than not".

Here is a link to a PDF with more gunfacts than you'll probably read (honestly, I doubt you'll even click on the link) - all statistics are cited.

It's honestly insulting to me that you would insinuate that I would, just because I am carrying a firearm, escalate a simple heated debate or argument to the point of violence and possible murder. I am a level headed human being, as most people are. We have been told to protect our families even unto bloodshed, it doesn't say "well just when they are in your home". Please stop the ignorance.

Just wondering? Say that there have been a number of armed break ins in your neighborhood and let’s say that the armed buglers have killed several innocent family members during their break ins. Let us say that just a week ago your next door neighbor was killed during a break in. It is dark and late at night - someone has broken into your house and is in the process of taking things - you have your loaded gun in your hand, what do you do?

The Traveler

[Gwen]

Never have I know or heard of a murder to quiet someone over beliefs. I am not saying such mentalities do not exist - just that I have never encountered it.

The crusades?

Ppl that were killed for having the audacity to believe all humans are created equal and deserve equal treatment and rights (aka civil rights movments) ?

Ppl that believe it's ok to form intimate relationships (not just sex) with whomever they fall in love with (for example same gender or interracial relationships)?

[NeuroTypical]

Say that there have been a number of armed break ins in your neighborhood and let’s say that the armed buglers have killed several innocent family members during their break ins. Let us say that just a week ago your next door neighbor was killed during a break in. It is dark and late at night - someone has broken into your house and is in the process of taking things - you have your loaded gun in your hand, what do you do?

The Traveler

I can answer for myself - and of course the answer is "it depends".

Are they in the kitchen or the basement?

Are they in the living room or anywhere else that places them between my wife and our kids?

Do we hear them breaking in, or are they already in?

Do we have 10 seconds to put a plan in place, or did they just walk into the room where we are?

Is my wife carrying too, or just me?

What I do, depends heavily on answers to these and other questions, coupled with how many seconds I have to think about it.

My general notion is that my answer, is I will do whatever is necessary to stop the threat to my family's lives. If that amounts to wife calling 911 and me shouting "I'm armed and the cops are coming, you'd better run!", then so be it. If I can deter this guy, fine /w me.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[blackknight5k]

Just wondering? Say that there have been a number of armed break ins in your neighborhood and let’s say that the armed buglers have killed several innocent family members during their break ins. Let us say that just a week ago your next door neighbor was killed during a break in. It is dark and late at night - someone has broken into your house and is in the process of taking things - you have your loaded gun in your hand, what do you do?

The Traveler

That's a good question, despite the lack of information I am going to assume a few things in my answer:

1 - My children are in bed across the house from the kitchen

2 - I am between my children and the intruder

My actions, in order:

1 - obtain phone and firearm

2 - call 911 to report a break in - informing the dispatcher that I am armed and am in fear for my families and my lives

3 - have my wife get the children and take them to a safe location

4 - cover the direction in which the intruder is, minding where my shots could go always following the 4 firearm rules

5 - inform the intruder that I know he is here, I am armed and ready to defend my life and my family's lives

The events after this are dependent upon the intruder - if they flee, then I will let them go. They are no longer a threat to my family or me. If he attacks me, then I will shoot him until the threat is neutralized - at that point I will inform the dispatcher (I'm sure they would know after the gunshots). If the intruder stays put until the police arrive then I'll let them do their thing.

I am not a bloodthirsty, delusional person with the hero syndrome, on the contrary I hope to never have to use my firearms in any manner against my fellow man. I am prepared to defend my family - that is all.