1/3 and 1/3 part cast out of heaven

[pam]

I need some help finding scriptures and quotes regarding whether it actually says 1/3 or 1/3 part were cast out of heaven in the pre-existence.

Thanks.

[Blackmarch]

I need some help finding scriptures and quotes regarding whether it actually says 1/3 or 1/3 part were cast out of heaven in the pre-existence.

Thanks.

I can find D&C 29: 36-37

[applepansy]

Is this what you need?

D&C 29:36 - 37

And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

Abraham 3:28 And the second (Lucifer) was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Pam, I don't want to derail this thread. But I noticed something that I didn't notice before. We use the words "cast out" a lot when reading about the third host of heaven who followed Lucifer. These two scriptures say they left of their on accord.

I'm still searching.

Edited October 5, 2011 by applepansy

[applepansy]

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[Vort]

I need some help finding scriptures and quotes regarding whether it actually says 1/3 or 1/3 part were cast out of heaven in the pre-existence.

Thanks.

It says "the third part" or "a third part". This could mean a fractional third, or it could mean that we were divided into three (or I suppose more) camps, the nominal "third camp" being the one that followed the erstwhile Lucifer.

[Jennarator]

It says "the third part" or "a third part". This could mean a fractional third, or it could mean that we were divided into three (or I suppose more) camps, the nominal "third camp" being the one that followed the erstwhile Lucifer.

I never thought of it this way. You are right. THis makes lots of sense to me. We may have no idea what the percentage is.

[MarginOfError]

It says "the third part" or "a third part". This could mean a fractional third, or it could mean that we were divided into three (or I suppose more) camps, the nominal "third camp" being the one that followed the erstwhile Lucifer.

So who were the other two parts?

[miztrniceguy]

I have never thought that it was equal parts, just 3 groups.

[Traveler]

One of the problems with ancient scripture is the effort by individuals in a modern setting to understand the scriptures from a modern point of view. During the time the ancient scriptures were created there were a number of aspects of modern math theory missing from the landscape. For example there was no number “0”; and few modern theologians seem to grasp the significance of that problem. Number theory was not well developed and the ancients did not understand and use fractions. They had some ratios but did not understand at all irrational numbers.

Not a big deal - most individual in modern society do not understand the difference between integers and real numbers. Rather than go into all the details of number theory as applied to history and science and the fall out in the religious community - I would only put forth a couple of thoughts. There were some “pockets” of understanding in a number of ancient societies that had advanced mathematic theory capabilities. Generally speaking these societies were at odds with “traditional” religious powers. Strange as this may seem there were elements of more advanced mathematics among the ancient Egyptians than among more recent Greeks and Romans. The Romans were horrible mathematicians and their “Pagan” concepts of power by brute force dominated most of traditional Christianity for most of the 2000 years since Christ.

The bottom line is that the ancients that were involved in our Biblical scripture did not understand or use fractions. This is a most important thing to understand when dealing with the early concept of the Trinity - which has evolved significantly since then - despite the efforts of many to adjust to more modern concepts and make the Trinity Biblical.

When the scriptures say a 1 third part it means that what happened cause the society of heaven to be divided into 3 parts. But it only tells us of the 1 part that followed Satan. Only by modern revelation do we know anything about any other part. In the Book of Abraham a second or the 3 parts is identified as “the noble and great”. The final part is only referenced indirectly.

However, it is interesting to note that following the flood of Noah that mankind was divided into 3 parts. It is a most interesting exercise to see how the 3 parts of mankind play out in the inspired scriptural history and prophesies of man. Also note that man again is divided into 3 parts in the resurrection. Traditional Christianity (which does not understand or seem to care about mathematical influences in history) sees the resurrection only in terms of 2 parts - heaven and hell.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

So who were the other two parts?

Generally I hear it opined to be fence sitters, and those who followed Christ (I do not know if this is Vort's suggestion). I'm disinclined to agree due to statements such as that made by Joseph Fielding Smith:

There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.

From Doctrines of Salvation, quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual - Chapter 6 - Our Premortal Life

[Vort]

Generally I hear it opined to be fence sitters, and those who followed Christ (I do not know if this is Vort's suggestion).

No, it is not. I have no suggestion. I am naming possibilities, not expressing personal opinion on the matter. Whether "the third part" implies a division into three groups or means one-third is not something I know. Assuming the former, I could speculate on what those three groups might be, but I don't.

[pam]

Thanks everyone for your help. Now let me tell you why I'm asking. TheMoreGoodFoundation (which owns lds.net and hundreds of other LDS websites) has tasked me with rewriting a response on one of their websites.

My understanding has always been 1/3 part. Now if I could just find a quote from a General Authority that states 1/3 part I'd be good to go. :)

[JudoMinja]

This is from a general conference talk in 1981 by Elder Richards:

"We read that there was war in heaven—that “Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,” and the dragon (or Satan) was cast down to the earth, and the cry went out: “Wo to the inhabiters of the earth … for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath” (Rev. 12:7–9, 12), and he “walketh about, seeking whom he can devour” (1 Pet. 5:8). And that is what he has been doing. He drew a third of the host of heaven with him (see Rev. 12:4), and when they were cast out, that third of the host of heaven brought with them the knowledge that they had in the spirit world, while our knowledge was temporarily taken from us through our birth into mortality."

He simply says a "third", not a third part and seems to imply that it was a literal 1/3.... I'm doing some more looking right now.

[pam]

I can find many talks by General Authorities, but every one that I have found says 1/3 and not 1/3 part.

[JudoMinja]

Found one!

But Satan opposed God and His plan, saying: “I will redeem all mankind, … wherefore give me thine honor.” “Wherefore, because … Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, … I caused that he should be cast down.” “And, at that day, many followed after him.” Indeed, “a third part of the hosts of heaven” used their agency to reject God’s plan. (Robert D. Hales, April 2006 General Conference)

Of course, he's just quoting the D&C scripture there that we've already provided... but he does not anywhere else say "third" or "one-third" or anything else to indicate an actual 1/3 fraction.

[pam]

Yes I found that one. And I thank you for it. However, I am trying to find an actual quote or a talk that a General Authority himself says 1/3 part and not 1/3 the hosts of heaven.

I know I'm being difficult but it's extremely important to the response I need to do.

[Vort]

My understanding has always been 1/3 part. Now if I could just find a quote from a General Authority that states 1/3 part I'd be good to go. :)

You can almost certainly find a quote from a General Authority somewhere to that effect, possibly even an apostle. But that is simply the assumed meaning. I would think you would want something more authoritative than a passing reference that assumes a meaning. Of course, I know of no such "more authoritative" reference. As far as I know, the matter has never been openly discussed. I doubt most leaders have considered the matter, or having considered it have decided it was of sufficient importance to broach.

Wouldn't it be acceptable just to explain that the scriptures mention "a third part" or "the third part", without specifying what that means? Alternatively, you could say that it appears to mean either one-third or one of three groups.

[JudoMinja]

Yes I found that one. And I thank you for it. However, I am trying to find an actual quote or a talk that a General Authority himself says 1/3 part and not 1/3 the hosts of heaven.

I know I'm being difficult but it's extremely important to the response I need to do.

Well, I'm in the same boat as you then. The only other references I can find, the general authority is either giving a direct quote from the scripture or says "third" or "one-third".

[Vort]

"But let me tell you that it was one-third part of the spirits who were prepared to take tabernacles upon this earth, and who rebelled against the other two thirds of the heavenly host; and they were cast down to this world." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:55

Is that what you were looking for?

[Justice]

So who were the other two parts?

There's a lot of speculation about this. I hesitate to give you mine. What I will say is that I belive the 3 sides are mentioned symbolically in the Book of Mormon:

1. Lamanites

2. Nephites

3. Anti-Nephi-Lehis os people of Ammon

These are found specifically in the chapters I believe describe the war in heaven, Alma 43 and 44, and help describe what those 3 sides may be.

[pam]

"But let me tell you that it was one-third part of the spirits who were prepared to take tabernacles upon this earth, and who rebelled against the other two thirds of the heavenly host; and they were cast down to this world." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:55

Is that what you were looking for?

Thanks. That's the part I am having to rewrite. This is what the original entry was:

Referring to the third part of the hosts of heaven that followed Satan, the prophet Brigham Young states unequivocally that the spirits followed Satan were one-third of the hosts of heaven. That statement identifies a specific quantity rather than one of three groups.

“I do not think it took long to cast down one-third of the hosts of heaven, as it is written in the Bible. But let me tell you that it was one-third part of the spirits who were prepared to take tabernacles upon this earth, and who rebelled against the other two-thirds of the heavenly host (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, selected and arranged by John A. Widtsoe, p.54-55).

The paragraph preceeding the quote contradicts the quote. That's where the confusion is lying and why we felt the entry needs to be re-written.

BTW Vort: This is from askgramps. :)

[RMGuy]

Is this what you need?

D&C 29:36 - 37

And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

Abraham 3:28 And the second (Lucifer) was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Pam, I don't want to derail this thread. But I noticed something that I didn't notice before. We use the words "cast out" a lot when reading about the third host of heaven who followed Lucifer. These two scriptures say they left of their on accord.

I'm still searching.

Read Moses 4 and you'll realize that Satan is still enduring the presence of the Lord even in the garden....so was he even cast out at that point?

-RM

[Still_Small_Voice]

It is my opinion that there were three divisions of spirits in the pre-existence:

1) Valiant spirits

2) Less valiant spirits

3) Rebellious spirits

I do not believe that 33% of the spirits were valiant, 33% were less valiant and 33% were rebellious.

The following is written in Jesus The Christ on pages 6 and 7:

In this struggle between unembodied hosts the forces were unequally divided; Satan drew to his standard only a third part of the children of God, who are symbolized as the "stars of heaven"; The majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, [Page 7] thus accomplishing the purpose of their "first estate"; while the angels who arrayed themselves on the side of Satan "kept not their first estate", and therefore rendered themselves ineligible for the glorious possibilities of an advanced condition or "second estate". The victory was with Michael and his angels; and Satan or Lucifer, theretofore a "son of the morning", was cast out of heaven, yea "he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him".

Satan was cast out in when he visited the garden of Eden. Michael and the valiant heavenly host cast them out.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Still_Small_Voice

[Still_Small_Voice]

It is my opinion that there were three divisions of spirits in the pre-existence:

1) Valiant spirits

2) Less valiant spirits

3) Rebellious spirits

I do not believe that 33% of the spirits were valiant, 33% were less valiant and 33% were rebellious.

The following is written in Jesus The Christ on pages 6 and 7:

In this struggle between unembodied hosts the forces were unequally divided; Satan drew to his standard only a third part of the children of God, who are symbolized as the "stars of heaven"; The majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, [Page 7] thus accomplishing the purpose of their "first estate"; while the angels who arrayed themselves on the side of Satan "kept not their first estate", and therefore rendered themselves ineligible for the glorious possibilities of an advanced condition or "second estate". The victory was with Michael and his angels; and Satan or Lucifer, theretofore a "son of the morning", was cast out of heaven, yea "he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him".

Satan was cast out in when he visited the garden of Eden. Michael and the valiant heavenly host cast them out.

[miztrniceguy]

How often, when any group of people is asked to choose a side of any given argument with the options being 1. YES 2. NO or 3. Not Sure, will the people be exactly divided? And if the number is not equally divisible by 3?