Mormon Church dress codes vs other church dress codes

[annewandering]

I said you were smart, sister. :)

[Vort]

"Traditional Zulu Women Attire -

The women dress depends on whether they are single, engaged or married.

Unmarried Woman who are avaiable are proud of displaying their figure/body. They wear a short skirt made of grass or beaded cotton strings and puts on a lot of creative beads. Clothing for Zulu girls is mainly made of beadwork and is usually revealing."

This description was accompanied by a picture, (which I won't post, or provide a link to for obvious reasons, but I'm sure you could find it on your own) of four women with their breasts fully exposed, wearing only small coverings for the pubic area, and large necklaces. Would sister vort wear only a small covering for her private area, and no top with her breasts exposed, if she were unmarried and visiting a traditional village in Africa just to 'fit in'? Would Joseph Smith want her to?

I made a clear demarcation between conforming and being immodest. Did you miss that?

IF Joseph Smith wants ME to wear a burqa, then I'm in the wrong church. If I thought that this practice was something expected from me, I would quit the church, and do everything I could to bring as many sisters as I could with me.

You should perhaps cool your rhetoric and strive not to get so worked up over discussions.

We are to obey, honor, and sustain the law. Even among the Zulus, I'm confident that it's not illegal to dress modestly. If you visit a Muslim country, you are expected to wear a burqa. To refuse to do so is to refuse to obey your commitments. If you feel that strongly, then don't go, but don't condemn those who choose to go and obey the law.

If the KKK held a rally in my neighborhood and asked me to wear one of those stupid looking white pointy hats to be 'respectful' of their beliefs, I would refuse, because I have a moral issue with their beliefs and I don't support them.

How nice to see Godwin's Law alive and well.

I believe that there are many instances where we have a MORAL OBLIGATION to stand up for what we believe in. This could include refusing to participate in practices like wearing a burqa.

Not if you're in Saudi Arabia. There is no moral obligation to offend people of another culture in their own lands because you don't like how they dress. On the contrary, the moral obligation goes the other way.

Vort I have my own moral compass. I would not champion the cause of stripping naked in front of children. That is dumb.

Yet you would champion virtually the same thing in Saudi Arabia in defense of your own "moral compass". Interesting.

You ought perhaps to separate your cultural beliefs from your moral outrage. People can have all sorts of cultural curiosities and still be well within religious morality.

[sister_in_faith]

Vort, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree...

[annewandering]

Vort, have you seen Mrs. Clinton wear a burqa? I dont remember her wearing one. Maybe I missed it. What she does wear is a sheer scarf. She is in the diplomatic business so I would say that is respectful enough.

[sister_in_faith]

Bravo anne!

[Tyler90AZ]

I think a guy wearing a suit and tie on Sunday is synonymous with being a Mormon. It is great for marketing . Look at the recent marketing campaign "I'm a Mormon." That is what we get on a constant basis when we wear our suit and tie on Sunday. Is that maybe one of the reasons the brethren counsel it?

I think any Christian would just be happy that somebody is coming to church. Why should it matter what their wearing? We should all rejoice anytime somebody comes to church. The wanting to wear "best dress" will come along as they learn the gospel and want to obey God. Then if they learn the gospel and still choose not to wear "best dress"(which is rare) we should still rejoice they are attending church and being nourished by the good word of God.

[Vort]

Vort, have you seen Mrs. Clinton wear a burqa? I dont remember her wearing one. Maybe I missed it. What she does wear is a sheer scarf. She is in the diplomatic business so I would say that is respectful enough.

Perhaps you are right. I am not intimately familiar with Saudi Arabia's dress laws. But the point remains. Substitute some other dress code for "burqua" or consider Afghanistan instead of Saudi Arabia, if it makes a difference. The point is that Ms. Clinton wears what she is required to wear to be modest within the definition of that culture. Whether or not she agrees politically or socially, she recognizes that she is a guest in someone else's land, and acts accordingly.

[annewandering]

Yes she does to the point that she can morally. Scarves are worn in both our culture and theirs so its seems a decent compromise.

[Vort]

Yes she does to the point that she can morally.

Are you suggesting it would be immoral for Ms. Clinton to wear robes that cover her, in deference to a host country?

[annewandering]

yes, if it is in deference to an immoral meaning.

[Vort]

yes, if it is in deference to an immoral meaning.

Which "immoral meaning" would that be? That the people of the land think it's immodest? Or that you don't like it? Or is there some other "immoral meaning" that I'm missing?

[annewandering]

The clothes are a symbol of the way women are treated in those countries. The rights that women have fought for in western countries is not allowed there.

I would rather not go down this road. No doubt its just one more thing we dont agree on.

[Vort]

The clothes are a symbol of the way women are treated in those countries. The rights that women have fought for in western countries is not allowed there.

I would rather not go down this road. No doubt its just one more thing we dont agree on.

I'm not asking about symbolic clothing. I am asking about the "immoral meaning" you infer. Can you help me to understand which "immoral meaning" that might be?

[annewandering]

Its immoral to treat women the way they do and the clothing is a symbol of that. Seeing women is supposed to cause men to have uncontrollable urges that cant be blamed on men because its all womens fault for being visible. That is one example but hardly the only one.

[Vort]

Its immoral to treat women the way they do and the clothing is a symbol of that. Seeing women is supposed to cause men to have uncontrollable urges that cant be blamed on men because its all womens fault for being visible. That is one example but hardly the only one.

Sorry, still not seeing your meaning. Even if we accept at face value your claim that Saudis' treatment of their women is immoral (which I don't), what does that have to do with the moral implications of a culture whose women wear burquas?

[RMGuy]

Just curious, since you seem to know so much about the dress in those times, how many people during those days wore a white shirt and tie anywhere? Your argument smells like a strawman, because it seems to me that white shirts and ties were not the normal attire for, well, just about anyone of the period.

Here's my real question: Was it customary for Jews during Old Testament times to wear their most presentable clothing before God when they entered the temple or synagogue? Why, or why not?

Thanks John Doe. That is my point exactly. The question was are our dress standards culturally set or eternally set. My original answer which you quoted part of was that this is an easy answer. The dress "code" is culturally set. Show up for church in shorts and it isn't the Saviour that is going to make you feel bad for wearing shorts, it isn't the Holy Ghost that is going to shun you, and it isn't God that is going to pull you aside and tell you that next time you need to come in something a little more appropriate. That would be the EQ President, the people in the pew behind you, or the usher at the door, and THAT makes it cultural.

Your point is well taken with regards to individuals wearing there best in the temple or synagogue, and if you would have read the rest of my posts in the thread, like this one

I think we tend to be a bit more pharisaical within the church than we would like to believe. Not saying that Sunday best isn't a good idea or that we should be appropriate. But when it comes to us leaning over and asking why we are mad at God, as indicated above, or if we even find ourselves looking at someone in jeans, or a sun dress and thinking that they aren't dressed appropriately for church, then perhaps, just perhaps we have a bigger issue ourselves that needs cleared up.

-RM

or this one

I hope I haven't given the wrong impression here Vort. I do believe that it is important for us to look be at our presentable best, as well as teach our children correct principles. I do think we need to be careful about how we interact with others. I believe Christ would welcome the individual that comes to church in shorts and a tank top, perhaps as that individual becomes more in tune they will choose to dress differently to reflect their reverence of the Saviour. Perhaps not. We don't need to allow that to affect our standards, nor do we need to act as a wedge to drive them away either.

-RM

it might have helped you to see where the other comment was coming from.

The fact of the matter is that cultural standards and expectations change over time BECAUSE of new developments and because individuals change and push boundaries. Otherwise we would all still be wearing the robes, or animal skins, etc. If we are so rigid on this idea of white shirts and ties, and dresses or skirts, and see everyone who doesn't conform as either

1. Too poor to meet the standard

2. Not converted enough to understand the principle

3. In open rebellion

Then I think that we do a great disservice to those individuals and to ourselves. Of course your milage may differ, and to me, that is a pretty cool thing. Perhaps allow me to illustrate with two stories.

1. A few years ago I was in a HC meeting. One of our HC's was not there at the start of the meeting. We had our opening hymn and opening prayer. We discussed action items that needed to be addressed, and we moved into the training portion of the meeting. The SP was talking about the need to serve those that we have stewardship over. At about that time our "missing brother" walked in. He was dressed in mucky boots, wet blue jeans and a denim shirt as I recall. The stake president stopped in mid-sentance and looked at this HC'er. His next statement was, "Who told you to come to a meeting dressed like that?" This humble high councilor bowed his head and explained, "President, I am sorry. As I was getting ready for this meeting one of my home teaching families called. Their toilet was overflowing and the husband is out of town on business. I have been over helping them to clean up. When I was done, I came directly here. If I had gone home to change I would have missed your training. What would you like me to do." I think that HC'er trained us more than night than any lesson I have ever heard on the subject of service, and he was not dressed in the standard uniform of the priesthood. But he was dressed in the uniform that I believe Christ would have had him wear that evening.

2. We have a large family in our ward that hail from outside the United States. This family has 5 boys ranging in age from 18 to 10. Each Sunday they come to church in dress pants, ties, and coats. Each Sunday they always have on some of the brightest coloured dress shirts I have seen. Vibrant hues of Blue, Purple, Green, Orange, Red, or Yellow. They do it as a way of honouring their cultural heritage, yet still maintaining a standard of dress that they deem appropriate for honoring their God. Do you find it distracting, demeaning, or rebellious? I cannot speak for everyone in our unit, but I know that I personally, and many others I have talked with find it worshipful and beautiful.

-RM

[Suzie]

1. A few years ago I was in a HC meeting. One of our HC's was not there at the start of the meeting. We had our opening hymn and opening prayer. We discussed action items that needed to be addressed, and we moved into the training portion of the meeting. The SP was talking about the need to serve those that we have stewardship over. At about that time our "missing brother" walked in. He was dressed in mucky boots, wet blue jeans and a denim shirt as I recall. The stake president stopped in mid-sentance and looked at this HC'er. His next statement was, "Who told you to come to a meeting dressed like that?" This humble high councilor bowed his head and explained, "President, I am sorry. As I was getting ready for this meeting one of my home teaching families called. Their toilet was overflowing and the husband is out of town on business. I have been over helping them to clean up. When I was done, I came directly here. If I had gone home to change I would have missed your training. What would you like me to do." I think that HC'er trained us more than night than any lesson I have ever heard on the subject of service, and he was not dressed in the standard uniform of the priesthood. But he was dressed in the uniform that I believe Christ would have had him wear that evening.

What a great story! Thanks for sharing.

[Guest gopecon]

RM - while I agree that the specifics of the "dress code" are cultural I disagree that the only corrections that you will receive are from mortals, and not the Spirit. If I were to willfully choose (unlike the humble High Councilor) to go to a sacred meeting in shorts I believe that I would not get as much out of the meeting as I otherwise would have because I have not shown proper reverence for God in my dress. I don't believe that the Holy Ghost will have as easy of a time getting through to me as He would have if I came more prepared.

[RMGuy]

How about all those who volunteer their time and efforts in clean-up wearing the yellow t-shirts....Mormon Helping Hands....they are setting an example of who we are as LDS, that these workers can be trusted and easily recognized. It shows respect for the work they are doing in sharing the Gospel.

Interesting perspective. I tend to see the helping hand t-shirts as advertising.

-RM

[Blackmarch]

Inspired in part by an article on beliefnet.

The only time Mormons are mentioned is once, but it was interesting we were used as an example of a dress code for religious buildings.

Do you think we are more strict than other religions? Less so? HOw important is a dress code?

We're middling.

More strict that some, less strict than others.

[james12]

1. A few years ago I was in a HC meeting. One of our HC's was not there at the start of the meeting. We had our opening hymn and opening prayer. We discussed action items that needed to be addressed, and we moved into the training portion of the meeting. The SP was talking about the need to serve those that we have stewardship over. At about that time our "missing brother" walked in. He was dressed in mucky boots, wet blue jeans and a denim shirt as I recall. The stake president stopped in mid-sentence and looked at this HC'er. His next statement was, "Who told you to come to a meeting dressed like that?" This humble high councilor bowed his head and explained, "President, I am sorry. As I was getting ready for this meeting one of my home teaching families called. Their toilet was overflowing and the husband is out of town on business. I have been over helping them to clean up. When I was done, I came directly here. If I had gone home to change I would have missed your training. What would you like me to do." I think that HC'er trained us more than night than any lesson I have ever heard on the subject of service, and he was not dressed in the standard uniform of the priesthood. But he was dressed in the uniform that I believe Christ would have had him wear that evening.

Of vital importance is our commitment to follow the Savior. I believe this ultimately does reflect in our dress. There is a message by the first presidency speaking of the garment but I believe it applies equally to our outward clothing. The letter says: wearing the garment is a sacred privilege. … [it] is an outward expression of an inner commitment to follow the Savior Jesus Christ” (First Presidency letter, 5 Nov. 1996). When our firm inner commitment begins to be reflected in our outward appearance we know we are on the right track.

Of course there are some exceptions. There was a talk by Pres. Monson I have always loved. It is similar to RMGuys above story. Pres. Monson said:

At a nursing home in our valley, two young men prepared the sacrament. While doing so, an elderly patient in a wheelchair spoke aloud the words, “I’m cold.” Without a moment’s hesitation, one of the young men walked over to her, removed his own jacket, placed it about the patient’s shoulders, gave her a loving pat on the arm, and then returned to the sacrament table. The sacred emblems were then blessed and passed to the assembled patients. Following the meeting, I said to the young man, “What you did here today I shall long remember.”He replied, “I worried that without my jacket I would not be properly dressed to bless the sacrament.”I responded, “Never was one more properly dressed for such an occasion than were you.

[john doe]

I think a guy wearing a suit and tie on Sunday is synonymous with being a Mormon. It is great for marketing . Look at the recent marketing campaign "I'm a Mormon." That is what we get on a constant basis when we wear our suit and tie on Sunday. Is that maybe one of the reasons the brethren counsel it?

Yeah, I'm sure the LDS Church gets a lot of converts just because they get to wear a suit and tie on Sunday.

[beefche]

For LDS members, is wearing "Sunday best" to the temple a cultural standard?

[Suzie]

Of vital importance is our commitment to follow the Savior. I believe this ultimately does reflect in our dress.

What type of clothing (according to you) would reflect the commitment to follow Christ? So let's say a sister chooses to go with pants next Sunday to Church. Does it mean (in your opinion) that she is not committed enough to follow the Savior? I'm interested in your thoughts, thanks.

There is a message by the first presidency speaking of the garment but I believe it applies equally to our outward clothing. The letter says: wearing the garment is a sacred privilege. … [it] is an outward expression of an inner commitment to follow the Savior Jesus Christ” (First Presidency letter, 5 Nov. 1996).

Garments are attached to serious and sacred covenants we make in the Temple. Wearing pants, a skirt or a tie on Sundays is not what I would consider a "sacred" privilege, IMO.

[MarginOfError]

For LDS members, is wearing "Sunday best" to the temple a cultural standard?

Yes. But it's built on the same principle as wearing our Sunday best to our worship services. Namely, that we don't treat our worship like "just any other activity."

That being said, acceptance ought to be the norm.

Story 1: I can't confirm this, as I seem to recall it was an anecdote told to me by an ordinance worker in Boston, but if I'm wrong about that, feel free to correct me. The story goes that a member came into the temple one day riding his motorcycle. He was a convert to the church who had spent his early adulthood in biker gangs and had several tattoos, many of which were visible even when fully dressed in his "Sunday best." When he arrived at the temple, he was wearing his leather jacket, chaps, a t-shirt and jeans. He carried a bag in the front door with him then proceeded into the bathroom in the lobby where he changed into his dress slacks, a shirt, and tie. When he approached the desk, the ordinance worker looked him over and asked, "are you sure you belong here?" The man replied "Are you sure you do?"

Whether the story is fable or fact, the principle ought to be clear--the Lord judges not on outward appearance, but on the heart (and if the tone of either person were comabative, perhaps neither should have been there; but if both were smiling and teasing, perhaps they both belonged).

Story 2: I was visiting St. George one summer and my mother went to the temple to do a session. I was at my grandmother's house watching my little brother when I got a phone call that my mother had become severely light headed and nearly passed out during the session. She would need a ride home. I went to the temple as soon as I could to pick her up. I was wearing shorts and a Hawaiian shirt, and sandals. I felt a little apprehensive about entering the temple in such loud clothing, but knew that there wasn't much to be done. When I came in the door, the worker at the desk stood, smiled at me, and welcomed me to the temple. I handed him my recommend and before I could explain why I had come, he--having noticed I wasn't carrying a bag with me--kindly pointed out where the clothing rental was. I declined and stated my purpose and he immediately called for someone to take me back to where my mother was waiting.

The attitude and kindness of the man was very comforting. I couldn't detect the slightest hint of any evaluation of what I was wearing. Instead, I felt like I was welcomed in full fellowship to worship the Lord.