The Bible and the Book of Mormon

[Guest]

Just a thought that I had...so for those that are LDS if you are faithful and keep the commandments and have a marriage that is sealed for time and all eternity and you endure to the end and receive all of your Temple endowments you will go to the Celestial Kingdom more than likely, is that correct? Well for those people that are non-LDS won't they end up in either the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdom's even if they don't do all of those things? Also, in comparing Christianity vs. LDS, Christian's maintain they are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). This goes against what it says in 2 Nephi 25:23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

So let's compare the two now...

Christian's believe they are saved by grace not of works as I have stated with the above Bible passage, but the LDS hold that we are saved by grace after all that we can do, correct? So when do you know if you have done enough? Is there ever any assurance that you will be saved, or do you just hope by doing all that you can do and relying on Christ's sacrifice to make up the slack that you'll be saved and go to the Celestial Kingdom?

If the LDS Church is right, then those who don't agree with it, the worst that can happen to them is ending up in either the Telestial or Terrestial Kingdom, right?

If the Christian is right, in by saying that we are only saved by Christ's sacrifice and that is what we have to rely upon, not our works as Ephesians 2:8-9 states, then those who rely on their works (LDS) will be cast into Hell for all eternity and those who rely wholly upon Christ will be saved or go to heaven.

What do you all think about this? Doesn't it seem as though if you are not LDS and are just a Christian that you have less to lose so to speak?

[NeuroTypical]

God didn't give us commandments so we wouldn't do 'em.

In my opinion, you show me a mainstream Christan that accepts that, I'll show you a mainstream Christian that believes the phrase "grace after all we can do."

Everything else is just parsing words and forcing disagreement where it doesn't belong.

[prisonchaplain]

We all obey commands. LDS, Evangelicals, Jews...it's a question of which ones we obey, and what does that obedience mean to us. LDS do not consume coffee and tea because a modern prophet prohibited them. Orthodox Jews do not consume shrimp, or mix meat and dairy. We evangelicals believe all Christians much preach and share our faith--to save souls. LDS expect to achieve the highest salvation for their efforts, evangelicals expect Gods' favor and a hearty "Well done good and faithful servant," at the judgement. Jews expect the blessings that come with, "If my people obey I will grant them . . . "

I'm not suggesting that it's all the same, but pitting grace against works can be an overdrawn dichotomy. Most often, the "grace" passages of the New Testament were meant to oppose "Judaizing" the Christian faith--for example, by requiring Greek Christians to be circumcised.

[Guest]

We all obey commands. LDS, Evangelicals, Jews...it's a question of which ones we obey, and what does that obedience mean to us. LDS do not consume coffee and tea because a modern prophet prohibited them. Orthodox Jews do not consume shrimp, or mix meat and dairy. We evangelicals believe all Christians much preach and share our faith--to save souls. LDS expect to achieve the highest salvation for their efforts, evangelicals expect Gods' favor and a hearty "Well done good and faithful servant," at the judgement. Jews expect the blessings that come with, "If my people obey I will grant them . . . "

I'm not suggesting that it's all the same, but pitting grace against works can be an overdrawn dichotomy. Most often, the "grace" passages of the New Testament were meant to oppose "Judaizing" the Christian faith--for example, by requiring Greek Christians to be circumcised.

Answer me this simple question prisonchaplain; since you're a Christian

Are we saved from sin, death, and hell by something that WE do, or by what Christ did for us? I don't want a lengthy answer, just a simple answer will do.

[Guest]

God didn't give us commandments so we wouldn't do 'em.

In my opinion, you show me a mainstream Christan that accepts that, I'll show you a mainstream Christian that believes the phrase "grace after all we can do."

Everything else is just parsing words and forcing disagreement where it doesn't belong.

God gave the commandments as a foreshadowing of Christ, and to show us what sin is, since sin is transgressing the law. He gave them to us initially to try to obey, but as you can see throughout the Bible, Israel was not able to live up to them and obey them, that is why Christ was sent to the earth to die for our sins and fulfill the law 100%, this is the main thing about the Christian faith, that the law was given, we can live up to it and thus Christ's sacrifice is what saves us. That is why it says grace through faith...we can only accept this wonderful, marvelous, gift by relying on Christ and having faith in the sacrifice He has made.

[pam]

God gave the commandments as a foreshadowing of Christ, and to show us what sin is, since sin is transgressing the law. He gave them to us initially to try to obey, but as you can see throughout the Bible, Israel was not able to live up to them and obey them, that is why Christ was sent to the earth to die for our sins and fulfill the law 100%, this is the main thing about the Christian faith, that the law was given, we can live up to it and thus Christ's sacrifice is what saves us. That is why it says grace through faith...we can only accept this wonderful, marvelous, gift by relying on Christ and having faith in the sacrifice He has made.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning (and forgive me if I am) but Christ wasn't sent because Israel couldn't live up to the commandments.

It was always part of the big plan. It was always planned that Christ would be born and would atone for our sins. Not because of Israel.

[prisonchaplain]

Answer me this simple question prisonchaplain; since you're a Christian

Are we saved from sin, death, and hell by something that WE do, or by what Christ did for us? I don't want a lengthy answer, just a simple answer will do.

The simple Evangelical answer is that we are saved from the pits of hell by responding to Christ's gospel, and accepting his grace and forgiveness.

My sense here is that many LDS would also say we are saved from the pits of hell (or outer darkness) by Christ's grace alone. However, most of them are seeking God's greatest rewards, and that would require faithful labor--'the 100-fold harvest.'

[Guest]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning (and forgive me if I am) but Christ wasn't sent because Israel couldn't live up to the commandments.

It was always part of the big plan. It was always planned that Christ would be born and would atone for our sins. Not because of Israel.

You are right, it has always been planned that he would die for us, it wasn't something that just happened on a whim or anything, but the OT Law is something that Christ Himself fulfilled in every way, shape, and form.

[AnthonyB]

"we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

This could be read as despite our best efforts, and God expects those, we will still need grace to be be saved. There is a Keith Green song that has the line, "Just keep doing your best and praying its blest, and Jesus takes care of the rest."

[bytebear]

I woudn't say we do "works" to gain celestial glory. Belief and faith in Christ extends grace and with that a higher degree of glory (from telestial to terrestrial), but only by covenanting with God (via Baptism) do we gain even more glory. I know some Christians see baptism as a work, and others see it as an outward sign of faith (but not a requirement), but for at least the first 1500 years of Christianity it was a necessity for salvation.

[bytebear]

I always liked the metaphor of the ladder in the pit. We are in the pit. Jesus' atonement is the ladder. Without the ladder, we cannot get out of the pit, but we still need to climb the ladder. And if we try, even if we don't make it all the way to the top, Jesus will be there to pull us all the way out (after all we can do). But he cannot save the man who refuses to even attempt the climb (or who thinks that Jesus will just reach in and save him)

[Guest]

"we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

This could be read as despite our best efforts, and God expects those, we will still need grace to be be saved. There is a Keith Green song that has the line, "Just keep doing your best and praying its blest, and Jesus takes care of the rest."

So do you think we should base truth upon what a song says or based upon your interpretation of what a verse says ?

Not trying to be offensive, just asking.

[Guest]

I know some Christians see baptism as a work, and others see it as an outward sign of faith (but not a requirement), but for at least the first 1500 years of Christianity it was a necessity for salvation.

Do you have evidence for this claim? Sources?

[mordorbund]

... but the LDS hold that we are saved by grace after all that we can do, correct? So when do you know if you have done enough? Is there ever any assurance that you will be saved, or do you just hope by doing all that you can do and relying on Christ's sacrifice to make up the slack that you'll be saved and go to the Celestial Kingdom?

Yes, we can and should pray regularly to know our standing before God. He will tell us what we need to do to improve, and He will give us His approbation.

... What do you all think about this? Doesn't it seem as though if you are not LDS and are just a Christian that you have less to lose so to speak?

I know of no God that admits a person to heaven based on an understanding of game theory.

[jerome1232]

I know of no God that admits a person to heaven based on an understanding of game theory.

Expanding on that I fully believe that if you knew the LDS church was true, but became a (fill in blank here) using the logic that was presented, it wouldn't bode well imo.

[Connie]

We are saved by grace through faith. But it has to be an alive faith, and we know that "faith without works is dead." (See James 2:17)

[bytebear]

Do you have evidence for this claim? Sources?

The Necessity of Baptism | Catholic Answers

[skalenfehl]

How does a child measure a parent's love for him? How does he know that his Dad loves him? Is it enough to hear dad say, "I love you" once? How does a parent measure his child's love in return? Does the child say, "I love you, too"? It feels hollow. Now if the parent goes out of his way to express his love with kind deeds and affection, those deeds are returned to the parent with kind deeds and more affection by the child. A hug. A smile. An act.

How do we measure God's love for us? How does He measure our love for Him?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son..."

"If ye love me, keep my commandments..."

In the LDS church there are four principles and ordinances of the gospel upon which our entire doctrine is built:

1. Faith

2. Repentance

3. Baptism

4. Gift of the Holy Ghost

Faith in who or what? How is it measured? Faith in God and Christ's sacrifice! Faith in His power to save me from my sins because I cannot save myself. Repentance? What is that? Is it a deed? A work? Of course! As I exercise faith in Christs grace, I see that if I forsake my sinful ways and turn to Christ and accept Him as my Savior, I can be born again. How can I be born again? Christ told Nicodemus how. I am baptized and enter a covenant to follow Jesus Christ and obey His commandments. Why? Because I love Him. Because I trust Him. I have faith in Him. In turn I am forgiven and receive His Spirit to be with me. I am supported and thereby strengthened to resist temptation and if I should stumble, and stumble again, I know that He can take me the rest of the way. This is being saved by grace.

[NeuroTypical]

We went to a nondenominational Christian children's program last night. We watched kids dance and sing "Keep my commandments, that your joy may be full." So it sounds like at least one mega-church in Colorado is on board with the notion that works are important.

[rameumptom]

2 Nephi 25:23 can be read in a variety of ways, especially given it was written in 19th century English, many terms have changed since then. When translated into German by John Taylor, he translated its meaning to "in spite of what we can do". Later in the BoM, we learn from the King Anti-Nephi-Lehi that all we can do is repent.

The word "saved" also has various meanings in LDS language. It can mean being saved from death and hell. It can also mean being exalted in the highest level of heaven.

LDS believe that through justification of Christ's blood, we are saved through faith and repentance. This means that we are made sinless through Christ, with no works of our own beyond faith and repentance. We then believe we are sanctified, or made holy, through faithfulness, which includes keeping commandments as an outward sign that we have been sanctified inwardly. It is not an all or nothing thing, but we grow faith to faith, grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93).

BTW, not all traditional Christians (we are also Christians) believe in salvation by pure grace. Many sects also believe that works are necessary. We believe salvation is a free gift through faith in Christ. However, the level of reward we gain depends upon the level of faithfulness we reach. And, many traditional Christians also believe this.

So, we really are similar in our belief. Our terminology differs, and that is where much of the confusion enters in. LDS have additional teachings, ordinances, etc., which also enhances our knowledge of the afterlife and the requirements to receive it.

[Carl62]

If obeying the commandments is simply a "by-product" of being saved, then why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler that he could be saved by obeying the ten commandments? Also, where did Jesus say that we are saved by grace alone and that the commandments are just an option? Seems like this whole "grace alone" teaching goes against what most other Christian denominations teach and not just LDS.

[sister_in_faith]

If we are truly saved by grace alone, and other christian sects believe this (which I doubt is true) then why do they even have Sunday services? Aren't they already saved? What is the purpose of having another chat about it?

[FunkyTown]

This particular idea comes up all the time.

You can see far more in-depth discussions on this than in this thread, but I have a few things to inform you of:

1) The LDS church doesn't believe in salvation through works. You could have discovered this by going to lds.org and typing the word 'Grace' in the search bar.

Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works? - New Era Mar. 2005 - new-era

2) Baptism is a work. Most Christians agree you must be baptized. Are you suggesting that you don't need to be baptized to be saved? If you aren't suggesting that, then aren't you suggesting that at least some works must be done? If you are suggesting that, aren't you ignoring what the Savior taught?

The scriptural rail split of Grace vs Works as a means to try to disprove the LDS church is a silly one.

[rameumptom]

Again, it is an issue of definition.

We are saved from death and hell through Christ without works. All that is required is faith in Christ and repentance (though some would require these are works, themselves).

Then, our level of salvation depends upon our level of sanctification. This does require obedience. However, the obedience must be an example of our faith. The Pharisees kept the commandments, but would not be saved, according to Jesus. Faith and faithfulness are the primary ingredients we provide. Jesus' atonement and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are what God provides. These two heavenly gifts are free. They make us guiltless (atonement, justification), and holy (atonement, Holy Ghost, and sanctification).

We keep the commandments because we are holy. We do not earn our salvation. Read Mosiah 2-5 in the Book of Mormon. King Benjamin clearly shows that we owe God for our lives. When we are obedient, he immediately repays us, so we are still in debt to him. We cannot earn salvation. All we can do is follow Jesus, and in so doing we are obedient as a part of who we become, not what we try to do to be saved.

[mnn727]

There is a BIG difference between Salvation and Exaltation, before claiming you know what we believe (about grace and works), you should probably learn the difference between the two. THEN we can have a conversation if you still think you need one.

Here is a starting point for you Have You been Saved?

Edited November 21, 2011 by mnn727