Nice old mechanic cost me $300, fight or forgive??

[creatorbri]

Nice old mechanic cost me $300, fight or forgive??

I'm sorry this is long, but I could really use some feedback here.

My car died on the way to work the other day, and I managed to coast off the freeway and into a gas station. Noticed a little mechanic's shop across the road, so I walked over and the proprietor, a friendly white-haired guy named Dave, came over and helped me get the car started and drove it over to his shop, a little two-bay box of a building. It's neat and clean and efficient, and he tells me he's been running the place for 39 years. I noticed photos of his wife, kids, and grandkids on his desk.

So he hooked up the car and ran a diagnostic. He looked up the codes in an old book that looks like the Yellow Pages -- no Internet here, folks -- and says "oh, it looks like you need a new Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)." Then he calls the dealer in the area, and says the part will be $60, labor 80-100, plus the diagnostic fee -- about $200 w/ tax.

I take the train to work. He calls me and says "actually the dealer quoted me for the wrong part, it will be $200, not $60. But it looks like it's gonna be about $60 for labor, so total is $300."

Ok, I have a baby on the way and an extremely tight budget. I thought we could probably manage to squeeze in $200 for repairs -- but now I'm thinking, where am I gonna come up with another $100? Oh well, I need a car to get to work -- guess we'll just be late on a couple of bills.

I pay the bill, get the car back, and lo and behold heading home from work the following day, my car dies again. I manage to make it back home, and the next day I take it in to a mechanic in my home town that I actually know and trust this time. He runs more tests.

"Ok, well there's actually a service bulletin out from the manufacturer on this car model, it says that the problem is not the throttle position sensor, but the accelerator position sensor. Your other mechanic may not have known that they are two different things on this car."

Ah. So I wasted $300 because the nice old veteran mechanic didn't have the Internet and his books were out of date -- otherwise he'd have known that this car has two different parts, not one, and that the OTHER one was a common fail point in this vehicle. My TPS unit was fine all along.

So I called the guy and told him the situation, and asked him to at least refund me the $80 for diagnostics and labor.

He says, "Well, I didn't know that they were two different parts. The code book for the diagnostic machine said it was the TPS unit, so that's what we replaced. If you go to the doctor and he says its X illness, and gives you medicine, do you get your money back because the medicine didn't help? I can't get a refund on the part, but I'm willing to give you $60 back for the labor, that's more than enough."

I argued with him about it for a minute, but then decided it wasn't worth quibbling over $20. Still, his mistake means I've got to come up with ANOTHER $300 to get the thing fixed RIGHT..

So why do I feel guilty for demanding a refund??

[Dravin]

I wonder if John Doe will wander in here, I'm curious to know what his professional take on the situation (he's a mechanic IIRC) is.

[Guest]

Unfortunately, in cases like these, you basically agreed to pay and have your TPS replaced. Yes, he made a mistake and was not up to date with the information but in the whole scheme of things, you didn't have to take the car there... make sense?

So, yes, it is very unfortunate that you wasted $240 on the car. But, that's the risk we take in this thing called free markets. The only thing we can do is not go there anymore and tell other people not to go there.

I usually don't trust anybody except this one service guy at a dealership 15 miles away from my new house (he was only 5 miles away from my old house). But, yes, I have been in situations where I broke down far from home and had to get the car fixed by some mechanic I don't know and had to risk them making the car worse. I've been quite lucky so far.

But there was this one time - I got this cadillac and the dealership said it will cost $1100 to change the busted headlamp. ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS. For a headlamp! My brother has his own mechanic - he is an expert on Hondas and my brother don't buy anything but Hondas. I take my car there to get an estimate on the headlamps and they said it's only $600. I'm like, yeah man! Change that baby! So, I left my car at 7:30AM, they call me at close to 3PM saying the headlamp they got does not fit my "souped up" model. So, they have to get a different headlamp and that will cost me $1200.... so, yeah, I ended up paying 100 extra instead of saving $500. Yes, Cadillacs are very high maintenance. But man, it's an awesome American car....

Edited January 26, 2012 by anatess

[Backroads]

Ethically speaking, I don't think you should fight it. Sure, I think a decent guy would admit his mistake and refund you in the name of good business, but that's his choice and not yours.

[Jennarator]

I agree, I wouldn't fight it. You did agree to pay. I hear you on the cost tho, 300 bucks is a LOT of money. I hate to have to just eat it, but it's not worth the fight.

[RMGuy]

Welcome to the world mate.

-RM

[Maureen]

If a person's car breaks down, they can always get a tow truck to tow it to their favourite mechanic. :)

M.

[Martain]

3 Nephi 12

38 And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;

39 But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also;

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to ago a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

3 Nephi 13

14 For, if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive you;

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

D&C 64

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

I hope this answers your question~

[john doe]

Unfortunately, you're lucky to get a refund on his labor. I think the old man did as well as he could considering his situation. He probably has the scan tool he used to pull the code as his only diagnostic tool. Most likely the tool doesn't tell him any more than that.

Many people are under the misunderstanding that when a computer turns the light on, you just pull a code, and it tells you exactly which part is the problem. All a code does is tell you what circuit or system that it is detecting a problem with. Most of the time, probably 80% of the time, the indicated sensor is in fact the problem. But there are also many times where a code is indicating a problem and it is up to the technician to track down the system and determine where the fault lies. This is where a piece of equipment more sophisticated than a basic scanner some into play. Good scanners cost from $1000 to upwards of $5000, and that's only to diagnose one line of cars. Plus you have to update them at least once a year, sometimes more often. Imagine spending that kind of money for each brand of car out there. Most independent shops can't afford to spend that much money, but the better shops will spend the money to buy a universal scanner that will show a lot more than the basic scanner, but not as much as the ones the dealer has. And they still don't tell the technician what exactly the failed part is. They give him a direction to go to find the problem. And in situations such as yours, even if the guy had the right tools, he likely would not have been able to find the problem without spending a lot of time and your money chasing it down. Technical books are out of date the minute they are printed. The only way your mechanic knew what was wrong was he either had a friend at a dealership who told him where to look, or he pays for a subscription to a service that gives updates daily on new things that come up for different cars.

It's unsurprising that the old guy doesn't spend the money on that stuff, he probably doesn't work on enough cars to justify the expense of those subscriptions, and dealers are generally too busy to give out free information to strangers over the phone who aren't will to pay them for it. You only paid $80 for this old guy's time, which is cheap in the auto repair world. You likely weren't even charged for diagnostic time since he really didn't do any.

Now, if you had gone to a larger, more established shop in a chain or a dealer, you would probably have been treated differently. Larger shops have access to the better gadgets, information, and scanners that help make the diagnosis right, but even then they can't guarantee they will hit on the right problem the first time. They would likely have charged you more in labor fees as well, because their diagnosis is more precise.

Also, you have to remember the reason why your shop knew that when they see the one code, to replace an entirely different part. The main reason is that someone else, probably someone at a dealer, had an issue similar to yours, where they changed the indicated part and it didn't fix the problem. So when it came back, they did a lot more digging into exactly what was causing the issue. The manufacturer probably got engineers involved, and they determined that the problem was not in the indicated part, but in another sensor that tells the computer what's going on. Then they wrote a bulletin and sent it out telling their dealers that if this particular code is indicated, the real problem is something else seemingly unrelated to the untrained. Then the aftermarket crowd got wind of it, and your trusted mechanic got all their efforts delivered to his desktop for a fee. All of that time and effort costs someone, and it's not cheap.

Long story short, yeah it happens that way sometimes, and it's best to chalk it up as an expensive learning experience. Dealers will charge you more, but you can rest assured that they are also the most up-to-date and best trained people to work on your car. And if they make a mistake, they will usually have more latitude in fixing the problem and making it right with you. Old guys (and even young guys) in small shops usually don't have the operating margins or repair volume to give you much if they make a mistake. About all they can do is say "Oops".

[kgrigio]

The head gasket blew on my minivan in the mountains of Colorado this summer on a boy scout high adventure. The only town within an hour had one mechanic. I had to leave 3 days after dropping it off due to the schedule with the rest of the scouts. This poor guy was just opening up his shop, and had never worked on my model of minivan.

Long story short, I spent 3k at his place and the van still didn't work right. I spend another 2k once I got home to find out he didn't get the timing exactly right and pinched several wires on the engine wiring harness while putting the engine back together. I was pure out of luck. I pushed the guy to get the work done so I could leave when I needed to.

The sad part is, the van isn't worth more than 3k and now other stuff is starting to go on it. Oh well, it's paid for, it runs great again, and at least for the time being I don't have another car payment.

This stuff just happens and there really isn't much use in getting mad or angry because in the end, life has a way of working out.

[pam]

I just take my car to my brother in law. That way if he gets it wrong, I can haunt him for the rest of his life. But then again, he's NEVER gotten it wrong.

And where else can I get someone to come replace a fuel pump in the middle of a grocery store parking lot at night in the pouring down rain and not charge me my last child to do it? But sometimes I wish he had charged me that. :) But that's another story.

Edited January 27, 2012 by pam

[Blocky]

I wouldn't fight for a refund. The service you're paying for is not a guaranteed fix, it's for the parts and labor, which he did. My mother in law has her check engine light going on a lot this last two years. She has put over a thousand dollars in it. It still goes on and doesn't run right.

[creatorbri]

All good points.

Still, with a kid on the way and a painfully tight budget (which has now been blown to smithereens) I'm going to take the guy up on his offer to refund the $60 -- every little bit helps.

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

[creatorbri]

Oh, and one more lesson I've learned in all of this -- my wife and her family have trusted this other guy for years, but I'm always naturally skeptical of mechanics, so I don't put too much faith in any single one. I've been messed over by dealers' service centers as much as anywhere else.

The lesson is, from now on, I don't think I'll take my car anywhere else but my wife's family's mechanic if I can possibly help it!!

P.S. That would be Autobahn in Logan, UT. If you're anywhere near the area -- as some of you may well be, given that this is an LDS board -- give them a try, and tell "Jason" a friend of the Boxx family referred ya!

[applepansy]

P.S. That would be Autobahn in Logan, UT. If you're anywhere near the area -- as some of you may well be, given that this is an LDS board -- give them a try, and tell "Jason" a friend of the Boxx family referred ya!

Your post gave me a thought. Maybe a "honest mechanics" thread would be nice. When in Ogden I suggest Iverson Auto. Ken has been great to work with for over 15 years. Sometimes he costs more than Midas, or other places, but I know he's honest and he says "I don't know" when he doesn't know. I've had to take my car to him AFTER the dealer and/or Midas couldn't figure it out and Ken fixes it. Also, when he doesn't know he goes and finds out on his own time...not on my dime! Great Guy!

I'll be very very sad when he retires.

[mrmarklin]

Where I live labor at a dealership is $115 an hour+. People gripe about it all the time, and it is very expensive to have one's car maintained and serviced. BUT dealerships have the correct diagnostic tools, factory trained labor etc etc. My dealer stands behind his work, such as when a repaired suspension component failed on my Land Rover, I got it refixed for free.

Because autos are getting so hi tech the days of the independent mechanic are fading away except for oil changes and very simple tasks.

To the OP, at least you got the labor back. But the guy had to pay for the part, regardless and you do have a new part!

Edited January 27, 2012 by mrmarklin

[Palerider]

Oh, and one more lesson I've learned in all of this -- my wife and her family have trusted this other guy for years, but I'm always naturally skeptical of mechanics, so I don't put too much faith in any single one. I've been messed over by dealers' service centers as much as anywhere else.

The lesson is, from now on, I don't think I'll take my car anywhere else but my wife's family's mechanic if I can possibly help it!!

P.S. That would be Autobahn in Logan, UT. If you're anywhere near the area -- as some of you may well be, given that this is an LDS board -- give them a try, and tell "Jason" a friend of the Boxx family referred ya!

On another note...if you went to a larger repair shop and or dealer...it probally would have been a more expensive repair. Our labor rate where I am runs 119.00 an hour. This is average for our area here in the St Louis Missouri area.

[Guest]

Where I live labor at a dealership is $115 an hour+.

Whoa! The dealership I go to only charge $85. And they're Cadillac!

[john doe]

Salt Lake area dealers run about $100/hour. Luxury lines will go higher than that.

[creatorbri]

I don't think I've ever had a really good experience at a dealership. They charge more, as others have indicated, and I almost always end up having to get the problem "re-fixed" somewhere else.

Unless the problem falls under warranty service (and isn't excluded under some loophole), I'd much rather have a trustworthy, local indie mechanic who maybe charges a little less than the dealers, but a little more than other 3rd parties -- yet I know I'm getting my money's worth.

[Martain]

You could always check out the card benefits associated with what ever level of visa or mastercard you carry. Some have purchase protection and others will extend your guarantee by either a year if there isn't any or doubling what ever guarantee there originally was. Might be useful~

[Iggy]

Just moved back to a small town, my car is out of warranty- and lo and behold my hairdresser's father is a mechanic.

The mechanic I used to go to here in this town has retired, so I knew I would have to look for another. I really hate going 25 miles to the next town to have the car worked on at a dealership, especially since it is out of warranty.

Anyway, my "Change Oil" light and message kept flashing every time I started the engine. I had just had that done so the message shouldn't have been there. I checked the owners book, did what it said to reset the message and it still flashed.

So I went back and told Shep what was happening. He, brought out a hand held diagnostic tool, fiddled around under the dash and then unscrewed the gas cap and screwed it back on.

The message went away. He said that sometimes the gas cap doesn't get put on correctly and this will cause the messages. After I get gas now, when I get home, I removed the cap and put it back on - just to make sure it is on tightly and correctly.

Shep has done some other really minor things for us- like attach the front plate on the cars. In AZ you only have the rear plate. Here in OR you have front and back. He didn't charge us anything for doing it. We were getting hair cuts (Hubby too) at the time by his daughter. He also attached the rear window wiper for me, and added washer fluid- no charge again.

After the "Change Oil" thing, I stopped by and told him that my rear left tire felt odd. It acted odd - did I have a bump it it, or what. He tested it, then told me that I would be needing to rotate the tires shortly. I told him that Husband was going to get me new tires after our taxes were done. He recommended the place up in the next town, rather than the place in our town. Yep, we were going there anyway- they have such a better rep. Les Schwab Tires - love that place!!!

Come Spring, I will be taking the car in for a complete check up- spark plugs, oil, fluids, etc. I can probably get an oil change cheaper up at Oil Can Henry's- but then I have to drive 30 miles one way to get there, and sit and wait until it is my turn. Here I drive 2 miles, and he or one of his workers will take me home. Then when my car is ready I get a call. Hubby will then take me there OR Shep will deliver it!! The extra cost is really worth it to us to pay to a local and for the added personal service.

Finding a good mechanic is really hard to do. Just as hard, time consuming & costly as finding a good hairdresser!! Husband and I really lucked out when we found Shep and his daughter- Oh, they share a building too. He bought the building AND land, and added on a Salon for his daughter.

[DasMarcos]

This story reminds me of a situation my wife and I were in years ago.

We were supposed to be picked up at an airport by a taxi service. Long story short we were picked up, but the driver took us to the wrong city. The city happened to be spelled the same as the one we requested, but he didn't check the facts. Right before we got into the car we asked him if he was sure where he was going and if that was the right state. (The other city with the same spelling and name was in a different but still close state). He said yes but he lied because he took us to the wrong area. His fault, 100 percent.

We told him what was wrong as we drove there but he said he would charge a lot more to take us to our destination. We weren't familiar with the specific area so we had to agree and just go with it. My wife became very irritated and started to cry but I kept strong and positive.

After we were dropped off my wife asked how I could be so calm and not mad. I told her that the guy already had our money, and us being negative would not change it. Yes we could fight for a refund but it would just cost so much negative feelings and emotions. My wife would get even more upset and put off by the whole situation.

The moral of the story is: If you get schemed out of money and its a LOT then you should take up a fight. If the money that you were conned out of is significant and important to regain then put up the fight. However, if the money is insignificant and you're just trying to prove a point, only do so if its healthy for yourself. There is no sense of being bitter, angry, distraught, and annoyed just to prove a point.

That being said. You only know your own personal situation best so make a choice that you feel comfortable with.

[Still_Small_Voice]

My car has cost me about $2,600 in the last six months. I had to replace two rear struts to pass inspection, buy a new tire and my junk Korean engine needed some serious work on it. The idler pulley (a part that holds my timing belt in place) broke when the engine had very close to 80,000 miles on it. It bent my valves and I needed to replace the engine head because of it (that cost me $1,890). I had the timing belt replaced at close to 57,000 miles but it did not matter.

Sorry about the rant. I just do not like my car.

[bcguy]

I am a auto mechanic and equipped with a snapon solus pro that in todays market cost $5,000. He at least should have something equivalent.

A TPS sensor is basically a simple volume control on a stereo. It has a voltage input, ground return, and a sense return to the ecm. Inside the TPS the wiper end is resting on a semi conductive carbon track. As the TPS moves across this carbon track, the resistance changes, allowing more or less voltage feedback to be sent back to the computer. If the carbon track was worn from many years of use, there will be disruptions in the voltage, and your car will experience no starts, hesitations, or possible backfiring. Think of a tps as a valve for a sink. It either increases or decreases flow of electrons to the computer to change the fuel injector pulse width, increasing or decreasing fuel into the engine which increases or decreases exceleration.

Your mechanic friend never did verify the tps is bad with a simple test with a scope or digital multimeter. So sounds like the problem could be some where else.

My suggestion, is put together a yearly car repair budget. Put two dollars a day for a year into the car repair fund and call the next mechanic on iatn.net to do your bi-anuall checkup to prevent things like this from happening again.

Edited February 14, 2012 by bcguy