double standards?

[MrShorty]

Ripfoster's discussion in the book club section about a certain book has triggered a response in me, that I wanted to bring here for separate discussion.

Re: porn -- do we as a culture have different standards and responses for men and women using porn?

Of course, I don't believe God has a double standard. I'm not even sure I believe the church and its leaders have a double standard (though it seems they have spent a lot more time and energy preaching to men against visual porn than preaching to women about written porn).

What I'm wondering about is more cultural/personal. I recall a blog entry on a feminist blog where the blogger described a dinner party with a handful of Mormon couples. The discussion turned to porn and the women in the party decided that porn use was automatic grounds for divorce. When pressed, they even decided that porn use was worse than adultery and a stronger cause for divorce than an affair. Would we ever say the same thing about erotic romance novels?

If a group of priesthood holders who got together monthly to play video games decided at one meeting that they were going to check out some "nude art," would our response be, "I think it is disgusting, but hopefully after a few picture they will realize they are in the wrong and decide to go back to playing games." or would our response be more visceral?

If there is a double standard, does it have a basis in reality? Do men respond differently to visual porn than women respond to written porn?

[Guest]

If there is a double standard, does it have a basis in reality? Do men respond differently to visual porn than women respond to written porn?

Men and women responses is by nature different. And that's just generally speaking. It's even more granularly different for each individual.

But, the general typical behavior is - sex is a physical release for men, sex is an emotional expression for women.

So, the damage to a marriage for women reading those novels is, in my opinion and my opinion alone, is greater than a man watching porn on TV. Because, a woman reads those novels, feels the emotional tug of whatever it is she liked about the novel and starts seeking it in her marriage - which is super impossible for the husband to compete with because, let's face it, these novels are usually written by women - the Fabio dude in the novel thinks like a woman, not a man. Okay, so how about the man? Well, a man watching some hullaballoo on the tv set gets a physical release. The same exact physical release he gets from using his hand. The same exact physical release from sex with his wife. Well, of course, the problem is, the wife usually will not do whatever it is the woman is doing on TV and of course, the wife is not as skinny or big boob'd or whatever it is that the woman is on TV. So, it will come to a point where the man can't get physically attracted to his wife anymore.

Okay, and this is of course, not touching on the Chastity law. In that, both types of pornography are equally horrible.

[beefche]

Lest anyone gets the wrong idea: women also get physically stimulated by reading porn as men get physically stimulated by watching it. It may not be to the degree that men are stimulated, but women do get a physical reaction.

[Iggy]

Perhaps this should be moved to the Open Forum???

[applepansy]

First I'd like to say that erotic novels are porn. I do not read pornographic novels. When I realize that's where a story is going I skip that part or skip the book entirely.

Having made that clear, I will now say there is a difference between visual porn and written porn. Written porn doesn't require a third party to take their clothes off. I agree with Anatess' post. In my opinion, visual porn is worse because someone is victimized even if they take their clothes off for the camera by choice. The same in not true of written porn.

The one thing men need to realize about written porn is this: If you want to stimulate your spouse then get in her head. Because eroticism starts in a women's head is why women think a man helping with dishes, bathing and putting the kids to bed, vacuuming, etc., as sexy. Guys, take it a step further tell her in her ear why you think she's sexy.

I agree with beefche, written porn can and does create physical stimulation in women. That's why women should avoid it. It also can cause a rift between husband and wife in the same way visual porn can.

We have a lot of threads at this site from men not understanding why their wives don't want sex. This discussion should clear that up if they think about it a bit.

[applepansy]

Perhaps this should be moved to the Open Forum???

I agree

[Bini]

Both are damaging and potentially can send a marriage spiraling. That said, I think visual porn does correspond with emotional aspects as well. A man that engages in pornographic material, will likely at some point, seek out an in-the-flesh encounter to live out his fantasies.

[estradling75]

I'm not sure I'd call it a double standard...

I'd think I'd calling that we have trouble living the standard loving the sinner while 'hating' the sin.

I think it might be easier to do so when we don't have an emotional investment in the person getting it 'right'

If someone is struggling with sin and they hear their spouse say that such sin is 'automatic' grounds for divorce, that makes it pretty clear that if the the sinning spouse wants to remain married they need to 'hide' and that makes everything worst. What they need to know is that it is safe and better to come forward and get it out in the open. And that is something that any spouse is going to not be doing throwing words around like 'automatic'.

This is not to say that the impact or consequences of porn are minimal, they are not. It can lead and even be the primary cause of a divorce, but it should not be automatic.

[Dravin]

Having made that clear, I will now say there is a difference between visual porn and written porn. Written porn doesn't require a third party to take their clothes off. I agree with Anatess' post.

Then in your mind is drawn pornography equivalent to written pornography?

Edited July 6, 2012 by Dravin

[applepansy]

Then in your mind is drawn pornography equivalent to written pornography?

Its still pornography and still destructive. But it doesn't involve a third party.

EDIT: Women look at visual porn too. I really don't think there is a double standard.

Edited July 6, 2012 by applepansy

[estradling75]

Its still pornography and still destructive. But it doesn't involve a third party.

So the writer who had to imagine the scene and write it and the artist who had to imagine it and draw it aren't third parties?... They aren't harming themselves in the making of it? The editors and proof readers and all the others that help get the porn out in the world aren't being damaged because they are only mentally partaking of the sin?

[Misshalfway]

Well, God's word on this is the law of chastity. As you know, he gave us this to help us master the flesh and develop a strong sexual stewardship. The problem is that we silly humans don't know much about healthy sexuality and the law itself isn't exactly explicit. I think that most of us start out either being afraid of it or confused. And our parents and churches don't help cause they either teach it's GOOD! or BAD! OR, they don't teach anything at all. There is too much shame and secrecy that it's hard for any of us to get a good education, let alone a mature understanding.

I think we can credit Satan for all of this. He is the one who planted lies and shame in the Garden, right?

And as I watch people grapple with questions about sex and sexuality and sexual behaviors and sexual rules (myself included), I think that very few really grow out of fear, shame, and confusion. We are afraid and confused about how our bodies work, what are feelings mean, what our needs are, and how our sexual relationships square with all of it. And so we talk about what hurts us (like infidelity/porn/etc.) cause that's easier.

If we were really understanding human sexuality....and then really understanding what spiritually healthy matured sexuality looks like... then we can understand how to develop the one into the other. And then we wouldn't find ourselves in such confusion, and we prolly wouldn't argue technicalities or judge self and others so much.

I really believe that God wants us to understand exactly what bridling passions IS and ISN'T. And I don't think it's as hard as we make it and I don't think its all that complicated. But like anything, we have to ask the questions in order to get these precious tutorials. But most, I'm guessing, don't feel so comfortable praying to God about sexual feelings, fantasies, and frustrations. We've too much of that "Adam hiding from god in the bushes" or the "she made me do it" thing going on with all of us.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Bini]

So the writer who had to imagine the scene and write it and the artist who had to imagine it and draw it aren't third parties?... They aren't harming themselves in the making of it? The editors and proof readers and all the others that help get the porn out in the world aren't being damaged because they are only mentally partaking of the sin?

Good consideration on the topic.

[applepansy]

So the writer who had to imagine the scene and write it and the artist who had to imagine it and draw it aren't third parties?...They aren't harming themselves in the making of it? The editors and proof readers and all the others that help get the porn out in the world aren't being damaged because they are only mentally partaking of the sin?

I didn't say that. Of course they are.

What I said was:

Its still pornography and still destructive.

Do you know what happens to women who pose for or participate physically in pornography?

Edited July 7, 2012 by applepansy

[Vort]

I didn't say that. Of course they are.

What I said was:

Its still pornography and still destructive.

Yes, but then you went on to add:

"But it doesn't involve a third party."

estradling just pointed out that it does indeed involve a third party.

[Heber13]

I'm not sure there is a double standard.

There is just emphasis to the groups that need to hear direction and guidance.

Boys and men seem to be warned about the problems of porn because many of them struggle with it and go to the bishops about it.

Girls and women are warned about being modest with their dress and to be careful not to gossip.

Those are not double standards (or intended to be compared or put as equivalents), just practical advice to who needs to hear those messages.

Regarding the group talking about it, I can't imagine they were actually suggesting porn was worse than having an affair. You could argue it is the same thing...but worse??? I think they might have been getting carried away. Bishops and SPs don't view it that way.

[applepansy]

Yes, but then you went on to add:

"But it doesn't involve a third party."

estradling just pointed out that it does indeed involve a third party.

Not quite in the same way.

[annewandering]

Writing or drawing pornographic scenes involves a willing author or artist, if minus a model. A pornographic movie, video or poster involves some woman/en/man/men degrading themselves for sex in a physical way. Many because of prostitution/drug problems or dominance by another person.

A writer/artist is not forced to write/draw porn.

Thinking a sin is bad but doing or forcing someone to do one is much worse. I just dont see how you can even compare the two different forms of porn and come to the conclusion that one is no better than the other..

You can think I am scum if you like but I am an addict for reading. If it has words I will read it BUT if it has sex well I dont read those parts and if the book has nothing in it but sex then even I wont read it. So am a I a porn 'partaker'? I dont think so but you are welcome to disagree.

The thing about the porn that men tend watch is that it is ALL about the sex. If there is a story line it is going to be very weak and just a vehicle to the next scene. They are really very different and hardly comparable.

Edited July 7, 2012 by annewandering

[talisyn]

My opinion is porn is something that takes your sexual attention away from your spouse. We are suppose to draw closer to our spouses, emotionally and physically, and when we are reading about the really hot vampire hunter in his dark leather pants we're imagining him, not the husband 5 feet away lol. The same (obviously) holds true for the husband watching the magic bouncing breasts of a not-wife female.

Edited July 7, 2012 by talisyn
spelling

[Hala401]

Ripfoster's discussion in the book club section about a certain book has triggered a response in me, that I wanted to bring here for separate discussion.

Re: porn -- do we as a culture have different standards and responses for men and women using porn?

Of course, I don't believe God has a double standard. I'm not even sure I believe the church and its leaders have a double standard (though it seems they have spent a lot more time and energy preaching to men against visual porn than preaching to women about written porn).

What I'm wondering about is more cultural/personal. I recall a blog entry on a feminist blog where the blogger described a dinner party with a handful of Mormon couples. The discussion turned to porn and the women in the party decided that porn use was automatic grounds for divorce. When pressed, they even decided that porn use was worse than adultery and a stronger cause for divorce than an affair. Would we ever say the same thing about erotic romance novels?

If a group of priesthood holders who got together monthly to play video games decided at one meeting that they were going to check out some "nude art," would our response be, "I think it is disgusting, but hopefully after a few picture they will realize they are in the wrong and decide to go back to playing games." or would our response be more visceral?

If there is a double standard, does it have a basis in reality? Do men respond differently to visual porn than women respond to written porn?

Wow, only in the LDS church could we have a discussion like this! I am shocked!

But in a good way. Next week I will see part of a documentary being made by a young LDS woman. I hope in time that the LDS church will be the first to drag this conversation out in the open, and some frank, loving and healing discussions can happen.

I know a powerful, loving and spiritual couple who are grappling with this right now, and through tears so abundant that none of us could see or talk well, we vowed to help each other deal with all this.

I do not think that any man or women gets involved in this stuff by evil intention, and Lord knows that there is sufficient provocation thrust in our faces every single day. One of the things I noticed when I returned from my trip to Kenya and Israel, is that when I walked into the terminal in the US from the plane is that I felt inundated by things that set me back.

It is my hope that in the future, no marriage will end because of a struggle with it; that in stead couples will have the tools to prevent, deal with and end it.

[Echo2002]

I recently saw an interview with a woman who said she was in rehab due to being addicted to porn, I'm assuming it was pornographic images. I didn't watch the whole story because I was at work, but she felt she needed to tell her story to let other women know they are not alone. For some reason it is widely ignored that women can become addicted to porn just like men can, it may be written or images.

I've been hearing a lot about the book "50 Shades of Gray", like it's just another work of fiction. I think even teenagers are reading it, but from the description of it, it's pornography. I don't understand how a book like this can be pushed in the media, but pornographic images and movies are thought to be sinful and dirty. These books are just as bad.

I think it is kind of a double standard.

[annewandering]

the casual acceptance of the new popular book, are we not saying its name?, bothers me a lot. Apparently what is involved in those is not by any stretch of the imagination, remotely, normal. It seems to me that satan has made a huge stride forward into tricking people into accepting perversity as normal and acceptable. We really need to be worried about this, in my opinion.

[Echo2002]

Are you talking about "50 Shades of Grey"?

A co-worker of mine was talking about reading it. I believe she mentioned something about bondage, then I stopped listening, lol.

I forgot to add, this new book isn't anything new. Look at all the "romance" novels in the grocery stores or book stores. I'm sure most women don't read them for the plot.

Edited July 8, 2012 by SpringGirl

[MrShorty]

Yes, the specific "book in question" is 50 Shades of Grey. It's one of those, "do we give the title as further publicity to stimulate more curiosity about the book or do we avoid the title so as not to give it the publicity." Putting it that way, maybe it is the same way that we make sexuality a big secret which drives kids to experiment.

And I had thought this might be better in the Open forum, if needed, the moderators can move it.

The one thing men need to realize about written porn is this: If you want to stimulate your spouse then get in her head. Because...

Is this an example of the "double standard" I'm talking about? Would we be just as comfortable with saying, "The one thing women need to realize about visual porn is this: If you want to stimulate your husband, show off your body. Because male eroticism often starts with visual stimuli." (I am aware that many women in sexless marriages to refusing husbands would probably point out that they've tried this and it isn't as "automatic" as this sounds. At the same time, there are plenty of men with refusing wives who have "tried to get into her head" and she doesn't respond "automatically" to such stimulation).

Or perhaps this is a better example of the difference

Look at all the "romance" novels in the grocery stores or book stores. I'm sure most women don't read them for the plot.

In the US, men's porn like Playboy and such, would never be out on the grocery store shelf where anyone could pick it up. As it is, we get all up in arms when Cosmo shows a little bit more skin than we are comfortable with and want the store to pull that magazine. And yet, I can go into a grocery store or book store or Walmart and find multiple copies of 50 Shades or any number of other romance/erotic books out on the shelf where anyone can pick it up and see what the fuss is. Maybe part of the difference is that one has to actually pick up the book and thumb through it, where Cosmo is out there where you almost can't not (sorry about the double negative) see it.

Maybe "double standard" is the wrong term. It sometimes seems like we respond much more "viscerally" to visual porn than to the written version.

Boys and men seem to be warned about the problems of porn because many of them struggle with it and go to the bishops about it. Girls and women are warned about being modest with their dress and to be careful not to gossip. Those are not double standards (or intended to be compared or put as equivalents), just practical advice to who needs to hear those messages.

I'm not discounting the possibility that we really need the different messages. In spite of our efforts to make men and women "equal," it seems to be pretty clear than men and women are different sexually (in anatomy and in sexual response). Perhaps we really do need different lessons on sexual topics because we are wired for different sins.

That said, I hear a lot of women who, in response to all the modesty lessons, decry the fact that men don't get the same lessons and call that some kind of double standard.

[MorningStar]

It's definitely not emphasized as much with women that we need to stay away from pornography. Maybe it isn't recognized as a big problem for us? Or maybe the difference is how husbands react?

A bishop told me that when a wife discovers her husband has an addiction to pornography, she cries hysterically. When husbands find out, their reaction is, "Oh. Well you need to stop doing that." I went to a fireside held by LDS Family Services and the counselor said the women are catching up with the men, but they are more likely to be drawn into online affairs than visual pornography.

I am very offended by Cosmo, but it is more about the headlines than the amount of skin showing. I have worked hard to have the stores I visit but blinders on it because my young boys can read that stuff and I don't want to see it either. I told a manager, "I want my son to ask me why the sky is blue, not, 'Mom, what's an orgasm?'" I pointed out that in our state, we have to sign permission forms for our kids to take sex ed, but somehow Cosmo gets away with displaying this garbage in front of young eyes.

As far as "romance" novels go, they're easy to avoid, unlike images you see everywhere. I have run into books that have scenes I find pornographic. I have learned to avoid recommendations from certain people because of this.

Visual pornography basically stalks people. It's hard to get away from it. If you have pop-ups on your computer, it's going to be images, not a written description of Fabio doing I don't want to know what to whoever.

All forms of pornography are horrible, but visual pornography creates victims, sometimes involving children, teenagers, and takes advantage of some very messed up people. Books involve imaginary people. Pornographic videos involve real people having real sex with the possibility of transmitting real diseases. If they ever regret it, they will have that reputation forever. To pay for this kind of pornography is to help support the degradation of our brothers and sisters.

Authors of smutty books degrade themselves. I wouldn't consider their readers, publishers, or editors to be victims, but still, there is no justification for it. Sex is supposed to be a private and sacred act. We shouldn't support it being on display whether it's real or imaginary.