Why I disagree...

[Leah]

Once again I seem to be making another 'last' post. I am sorry but what you have just said shows you have very little understanding of how Biology works. I am no expert but just because a gene is present does not mean it is active. The gay gene is most likely a recessive gene meaning that if a dominant (straight) allele is present then the person will not turn out be homosexual which explains why the majority of people are heterosexual.

BBC - GCSE Bitesize: Alleles

You may think I come across as showing qualities which are not those which I aspire other people to have. I would say two thing's: I am not perfect and no I do not totally follow what I preach but I try my best to. Secondly I am not hiding behind pretending to be loving. I am here because I am loving, I think your religion and religion in general can come in the way of being totally loving to all, hence why I can come across as trying to prove I am right.

I love you all hence why I care so much about trying to share what I think is most important about how to live life.

In regards to the evidence just because there is opposing evidence does not mean I am therefore unable to come to a conclusion, and I did not say there was an equal amount of opposing evidence.

Wrong. You have no idea what I know about biology.

YOUR approach to 'biology' seems to be seeking out those sources - legitimate or not - that "prove" your theory. Others here have pointed out to you that your links do not, in fact, prove your theory. You choose to ignore that, because it doesn't fit your needs.

If you had ANY understanding of this church, you would realize it is loving to all. However, you think anyone who does not hold your personal point of view is not loving. You are being judgmental and are attempting (badly) to shame people into accepting your viewpoint, implying that they are not "loving" if they don't share your mindset.

Of course you came to a conclusion. You cherry pick your "facts" and "conclude" that which you have already decided.

I still challenge you to read the Book of Mormon with an open heart and an open mind and seek honestly to know if it is true or not. Or are you too scared?

[Suzie]

One of the reason's I was motivated to come to this forum was because my best friend committed suicide recently. He was a gay Mormon he tried to live a straight lifestyle but he couldn't being Gay was part of who he was. Nothing could change that. His family abandoned him, told him he was sinful, God would punish him he must repent and change. He just wanted to live a life of happiness and love, whilst being honest to himself. He wasn't allowed that opportunity and he couldn't cope it all ended with a trip to Beachy Head.

If his family abandoned him, etc then they have issues but NOT every Mormon acts in the same way towards homosexuals or believes in the same way about homosexuality. You will see a big spectrum of opinions on the matter.

[carlimac]

Ok this really is the last post. His Parent's could not accept him because they believed the teaching's of the LDS church is the ultimate truth - as the church teaches homosexuality is morally wrong they could accept or tolerate him for the way he was. They put religion before love. What I say is you should put love before anything else, before scripture, before law, before Jesus, before God. That is not to say these thing's are mutually exclusive but I think love should always take precedent over any religious teaching. If you follow the path of love and kindness you can never go wrong.

It's sad and tragic that his parents couldn't accept him. They were in the wrong if they made him feel unloved. This is NOT how our church recommends handling relationships of this kind. Parents ARE encouraged to love and support a child- to offer santuary, to do everything possible to have a good relationship and show love for our children. There is a difference between rejecting a person and rejecting their actions. If he was engaging in sexual intimacy with other men, I can see how they wouldn't want him living under their roof. It would be interesting to hear from you more specifically what his parents did that made him believe they couldn't accept him. Did they throw him out of the house? Disown him? Beat him physically or emotionally? How did he come to believe they didn't love him? Having attractions to the same gender isn't a sin. Engaging in homosexual activity is against the commandments. Simple as that.

We can still love our children even if they do things that are morally wrong. I have a nephew who was ejected from his home because he violated home rules. He was smoking marijuana as a young adult and to have the privilege of living in his parents home he had to remain drug free. He didn't. He willfully broke the rules (and even lied about it for a time, too.) But never did his parents make him feel unloved. It was always made clear that they love him, that he is eternally connected to them. He is always welcome to come visit but he doesn't have his parents financial support because of his drug abuse nor can he live under their roof- even if he is homeless or ends up in jail. That's not a lack of love. In fact it's the perfect example of tough love. He has a child out of wedlock and they love and adore that child as well as the child's mother. But there is NO question that they disapprove of the behavior that their son was engaging in.

Gay people often get this point confused. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does NOT hate homosexuals! The church does not reject them or try to strip them of their rights. They encourage them to remain celebate and single if they aren't up to a heterosexual marriage that they can commit to for eternity. They encourage homosexuals to do as much as possible in life that is positive and upbeat- to be involved in church and community service and work. To cherish family relationships. And most importantly to stay close to God and to wrap themselves in his unconditional love.

[Misshalfway]

I still challenge you to read the Book of Mormon with an open heart and an open mind and seek honestly to know if it is true or not. Or are you too scared?

Very effective approach you have here.

There's a saying about a pot....and I believe a kettle.

Which one were you trying to be?

[Joette]

I get your cultural reference.

When we talk about "increase" this to us as LDS is not just a mortal life belief we believe that

our increase is an Eternal principle.If we are faithful & righteous to achieve the highest degree of glory within the Celestial kingdom then we will have the right to produce for all eternity.We will be the builders of new Worlds & then we will populate them.Takes a male & a female to do that.

I have friends & family who are homosexual-the majority are in homosexual relationships,one is married to a woman to whom he is faithful & they have children.One abstains from sexual relations.

I myself have never been sealed in the Temple I cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without a mate-the same goes for men.We need both parts of mankind to make the whole.

I know that IF I am faithful then one day I will receive the blessings of a Temple sealing.

We accept anybody of any sexuality within our congregations-all that we ask is sexual purity before marriage & fidelity afterwards.Repentance is always available.

[Hewitt]

Well I am afraid I will not be reading the book of Mormon. I do not believe in God due to total lack of any kind of experience with a God and lack of evidence - I also do not see a need for a God in my life. I will not be reading the book because after having read the bible I do not think that an additional book is going to entirely change my way of thinking.

I have only being cherry-picking my fact's in that I was asked to provide evidence there was a gay gene so I did, why would I provide evidence to the contrary in response to that request. The thing about genes and alleles is just mainstream widely accepted scientific consensus, if you reject that then I am afraid you mustn't know much about biology it is absolutely fundamental to it.

I have also not reduced my whole argument to a gay gene, I believe there is one and that when it is active it does cause homosexuality, so I do not see what is so absurd and laughable about that. Thing's such as the colour of your hair are determined in the same way, is it absurd and laughable that could be down to a single gene? People are also once again conflating different thing's when I talk about homosexuality I am not referring to lifestyle I am talking about the attractions two members of the same sex can feel towards one another.

I am also not a missionary for Homosexual conduct, I just believe that homosexual conduct is not harmful and is not immoral.

In regards to my friend he never engaged in homosexual conduct with anyone. His parents just couldn't accept the fact he was Gay, it was not his choice and wasn't going to change. So in effect they did disown him when he told them he was unwilling to have other people try and change him. His parent's did not love him if they did they would have accepted him unconditionally. He could not cope with the pressure and hostility.

And I am sorry Vort but you saying I am teaching a gospel of homosexuality and framing it as 'love' is just downright rude. All I am preaching is that someone's sexuality is not the be all and end all, it does not determine whether they are a 'good' person or not. In your religion's grand scheme of thing's is sexuality really that important? Isn't it more important to leave a kind and loving life than to worry about the biological features of those involved. I preach love over anything else because it is the least controversial thing in the universe - hence why I said earlier in the thread it unites people.

It is so easy for heterosexual people to say homosexuality is sinful, is wrong, is choice etc. But why don't you consider what it must be like to be homosexual. If you can even slightly empathise then should see why your views can seem unfair, divisive and unloving.

“Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation.” Rabindranath Tagore .

[Leah]

Very effective approach you have here.

There's a saying about a pot....and I believe a kettle.

Which one were you trying to be?

I fail to see where the above quote is at all relevant to my post.

Some people are afraid to read the Book of Mormon. Some people are afraid of the truth, as they would then have to change behaviors that they are not interested in changing. Some people are afraid of finding out that they are wrong about something. It is this kind of fear that keeps some people from reading the Book of Mormon.

There are heterosexuals who do not want to recognize that sex outside of marriage is wrong, because they don't want to have to give up having sex with whomever they choose.

Some people don't want to read the Book of Mormon, learn about the church, etc., because they are afraid that it might be true after all, and there are things/attitudes/behaviors they are reluctant to give up.

No kettles or pots here.

[annewandering]

Actually we believe sexuality is extremely important. It has eternal implications. We believe the family, man, woman and children, is the very foundation of eternal life. It is ALL based on family. If 'we' decided sexuality didnt matter then the gospel would have no foundation.

https://www.lds.org/family/proclamation

Read this and then you should be able to understand our viewpoint.

Love is a commandment and it is all about family. Love for our Father in Heaven and love for our brothers and sisters, ie mankind.

[Echo2002]

"There is clearly a gay gene which can randomly manifest itself in people hence why the proportion of people that has been homosexual has been pretty much constant throughout history."

How can you tell the proportions have been constant through out history when to this day there are only rough estimates on the number of people who say they are homosexual?

[Misshalfway]

I fail to see where the above quote is at all relevant to my post.

Some people are afraid to read the Book of Mormon. Some people are afraid of the truth, as they would then have to change behaviors that they are not interested in changing. Some people are afraid of finding out that they are wrong about something. It is this kind of fear that keeps some people from reading the Book of Mormon.

There are heterosexuals who do not want to recognize that sex outside of marriage is wrong, because they don't want to have to give up having sex with whomever they choose.

Some people don't want to read the Book of Mormon, learn about the church, etc., because they are afraid that it might be true after all, and there are things/attitudes/behaviors they are reluctant to give up.

No kettles or pots here.

So what if they are afraid? So what if they aren't interested in changing? It isn't our job to change anybody.

What good comes when we judge each other and throw beliefs in each others faces? I can't see any. That is what I meant by pots and kettles.

I know sometimes people come here with an axe to grind. I know the church has been hit hard with criticisms on this issue. But I still long for a gentler exchange.

The OP just had a friend commit suicide. And he perceived that it was the LDS paradigm that drove him to it. That doesn't sound to me like someone who "knows but will not know." Something different is going down here.

[Sicily510]

Interesting you state that Misshalfway....

what is it you think that's goind down here? If you don't mind me asking....

[annewandering]

anger/blaming part of grieving? Could be.

[Sicily510]

What would be a solution for such anger or grievance? Do we add to the fuel or do we help comfort those who stand in need of comfort?

I find that the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints has taught me the very essence of love, and for one to truly attain love they will be meek and lowly in heart. Love is what we seek as Latter-day Saints through our Heavenly Fathers (God) words in the scriptures, once I came to the light that love is faith, hope, and charity in all things. I've realized with this understanding I must strengthen it in good thoughts, in good works, and good deeds.

I understand Hewitt that you disagree with the LDS church, does it bring comfort or satisfaction in proclaiming such amongst people who are hopeful for peace and charity? If you don't think about yourself for a second,what do you think about? Are you thinking about others and what you can do to help those in distress or in need for spiritual growth? Love is invariably Jesus Christ and his sacrifice to bring light to the lowly in heart and meek,to strengthen the poor whom are in despair why would Jesus die for those who are good and righteous it would be meaningless and unnecessary.

Not one single soul is perfect, we all fall short in the glory of our Heavenly Father (God). Yet, Heavenly Father (God) was so full of love he sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die for us so that we may be able to return with him in true love and happiness eternally. May I ask, what do you know about Jesus Christ Hewitt? Did he cause us to contend with each other or teach us to be accountable for our own actions, we cannot represent him if we are not acting upon his principles accordingly.

I can only imagine the resentment against the parents of your dear friend you've lost, yes, many will judge accordingly to what they learn or heard but what does this bring? Love is not division and contention it's the ability to help comfort each other even when we don't agree. In my opinion, Jesus Christ didn't deny the wicked of his grace but he was able to change those who felt it, to becoming people strong in faith, that's to me miracles that are always left unnotice. Many are so wicked to the extent they don't even want to know who Jesus Christ is they even slander his name and preach against God the Eternal Father.

Now, you don't believe homosexuality is bad and you are entitled to your belief. But when it becomes evident that there is a separation between the political bands and the people of God who will not enact in war, for the people who are for peace and charity in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ ways will eventually separate from the people whom are for political power and authority, whom would you choose? I wouldn't think you would choose those of peace and charity because they've built their homes upon the rock of Jesus Christ light, while political powers are known to conspire and feud over laws and changes and become the absolute power almost to cause bondage through debts, loans, and policies which people will unfortunately be indebted to throughout their lifetime. I forgot you live in the United kingdom but what makes the parliament any different from the political government? In my opinion they both possess the need to govern yet are able to do so unjustly.

If you learn of the LDS faith you will learn of Saints whom are people of Faith, self sufficient, of diverse ethnicity with one belief in Heavenly Father (God) and Jesus Christ. We believe that we have inherited our very soul from him and will constitute accordingly to his commandments. I wish you well in your life Hewitt, and may you be blessed in your heart to find the good in things and slow to notice the bad. God bless

[Soulsearcher]

anger/blaming part of grieving? Could be.

in addition it could be trying to make sense of something not understood, both the death and the reasons behind it.

[Eleven]

My personal opinion is that whether its in the genes, or mentality, i dont believe a portion of the attraction is a choice. BUT, it is a choice to act on those attractions, and the more you act on them, the less they become a choice. I look at it as a similar concept of addictions to alcohol. Some people have it in their genes to be alcoholics. If they choose to give in to alcoholism, they are choosing to become addicted to it, and being addicted to anything restricts your choice. Therefore, it would be easy for them to say "its not my choice to drink, i couldnt function without it"

Everyone has a road they are asked to walk. It is not my place to judge Hewitt for how he has walked his, but I can come to the conclusion that It is in my genes to be a sinner. Doesnt mean i was born to be a sinner though. I have all kinds of attractions to envy, lie, steal, harm someone else, and worst of all cut off that jerk that didnt use his blinker. If i am to be a loving person though, i must not obey the carnal mind, but rather the spiritual.

Not making this up at all, i have three males who have same sex attraction in my life, one is my uncle, who chooses to be openly gay, a Zone leader from my mission a year ago who just came out of the closet and now is openly a cross dresser, and a third who has been fighting same sex attraction since he was 7. All were raised in the church except for the last. He was a convert, listened to the teachings, and for the first time in 20+ years, found an attraction to a very beautiful girl. From what i understand, they dated three times and decided to part ways, but the point is, is that he walked all over that road he was asked to walk and not for a second did he look back. Sure, he's not married yet, but my believe is finding that spark that makes a mans knees weak when a beautiful woman walks in a room was a huge mountain my dear friend climbed.

Fighting same sex attraction will always seem like a victory that can never be won. The only reason i know this is because same sex attraction is a sin, just like my weaknesses are sins, and my battle for self mastery always seems like a longshot. Your an Atheist and I am a Christian, knowing we cant find a religious middle ground, take a lesson from nature. Jim Watkins once said " A river cuts through rock, not because of its power, but rather its persistence."

With God all things are possible my friend.

1 I do embrace who you are because who you are is not what you are. Your identity as a spiritual child of God has nothing to do with your choice of behaving homosexually.

2 I need God because he helps me just like he helped my friend. I cant do this alone, otherwise I would have given into my specific carnal attractions a long time ago

[Bini]

So what if they are afraid? So what if they aren't interested in changing? It isn't our job to change anybody.

What good comes when we judge each other and throw beliefs in each others faces? I can't see any. That is what I meant by pots and kettles.

I know sometimes people come here with an axe to grind. I know the church has been hit hard with criticisms on this issue. But I still long for a gentler exchange.

The OP just had a friend commit suicide. And he perceived that it was the LDS paradigm that drove him to it. That doesn't sound to me like someone who "knows but will not know." Something different is going down here.

Thank you.

I wish I could THANK your posts multiple times in big bold letters. Well said, well said, and well said.

[Vort]

Well I am afraid I will not be reading the book of Mormon.

Well, we have to give you points for honesty. But of course, with this statement, you have disqualified yourself from having your opinion on the LDS religion taken seriously.

The thing about genes and alleles is just mainstream widely accepted scientific consensus, if you reject that then I am afraid you mustn't know much about biology it is absolutely fundamental to it.

The problem as I see it is that we seem to understand gene theory significantly better than you, so your genetic arguments are unconvincing. For example:

I have also not reduced my whole argument to a gay gene, I believe there is one and that when it is active it does cause homosexuality, so I do not see what is so absurd and laughable about that. Thing's such as the colour of your hair are determined in the same way, is it absurd and laughable that could be down to a single gene?

Single-gene traits are not the norm, and they typically involve such binary characteristics as the amount of pigment present in a body part (such as eye color) or the tertiary/quaternary structure of a protein (such as diabetes). And when you are dealing with a complex behavioral trait such as homosexuality, you must contend with hundreds or thousands of genes acting in concert along with environmental and social conditioning, which are almost certainly more important than the bare genetic factors.

Again, the idea that a complex behavioral trait such as homosexuality is controlled by a single gene that flips it "on" or "off" is not believable. No one who knows what he or she is talking about would make such a statement. Don't believe me? Find an honest and reputable homosexual geneticist and ask him/her. Their answer will be the same thing I'm telling you.

People are also once again conflating different thing's when I talk about homosexuality I am not referring to lifestyle I am talking about the attractions two members of the same sex can feel towards one another.

LDS teachings warn against homosexual behavior. If you are taking those teachings and using them to pretend that the LDS Church teaches against homosexual feelings or against homosexuals themselves, you are mistaken. If you have simply misunderstood the LDS teachings on the matter, then accept our corrections of your misapprehensions.

I am also not a missionary for Homosexual conduct, I just believe that homosexual conduct is not harmful and is not immoral.

Yet you come to this forum and instruct us in our deficiencies, refusing to engage except to tell us that we are wrong. That doesn't sound much like discussion.

And I am sorry Vort but you saying I am teaching a gospel of homosexuality and framing it as 'love' is just downright rude.

That may be the first time anyone on this forum has ever called me rude.

Or maybe not. Hmmm. Not sure.

Look, I call it as I see it, and I don't always see it clearly. If you are sincere and looking for real engagement (which does not seem the case to me, judging by what you've already posted), then what I wrote was probably out of line. So how about this: From now on in this thread, I will presume the best of you and try to respond in a kind manner, and in return, you be willing to engage honestly on the topics you bring up. Deal?

In your religion's grand scheme of thing's is sexuality really that important?

Of course. It is a foundational characteristic of who and what we are.

Isn't it more important to leave a kind and loving life than to worry about the biological features of those involved.

Again, you are confusing "biological features" (attraction) with actual actions (homosexual conduct). This has been made clear several times in this thread: Homosexual attraction is not, per se, evil or wrong. Homosexual activity is.

It is so easy for heterosexual people to say homosexuality is sinful, is wrong, is choice etc. But why don't you consider what it must be like to be homosexual. If you can even slightly empathise then should see why your views can seem unfair, divisive and unloving.

We see pretty clearly that our views "can seem unfair, divisive and unloving". But we also believe our views to be true. And you don't sacrifice diamond truth on the altar of political expediency. However unfair or unloving our views may seem to you, they are not.

“Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation.” Rabindranath Tagore .

Let me observe that there is an important difference between saying "God is love" and saying "Love is God". The former is true; the latter is dangerously false.

[mnn727]

As a Homosexual I can assure everyone here that it is not a choice. I will not go into the scientific proof but what I can say is that I am attracted to other men in the same way in which straight men are attracted to women I can't help it and to say otherwise would be lying.

I tend to agree with that statement. I personally believe that sexuality is a line with x percent of people at one end of the line being homosexual and x percent of people at the other end of the line are heterosexual and everyone else lies somewhere in between, the x percent at either end has no choice, the ones in between do to one extent or another.

Shouldn't people just be honest and kind because that is the right thing to do, not because they fear punishment. but what I do not understand is why people conform to this because they fear punishment. Why would you worship a God you fear? .

We LDS do no fear God, we believe He is a loving Father in Heaven that wants all of us to return to him. We also do not believe in the same kind of Hell that other religions teach.

[Sicily510]

My personal opinion is that whether its in the genes, or mentality, i dont believe a portion of the attraction is a choice. BUT, it is a choice to act on those attractions, and the more you act on them, the less they become a choice. I look at it as a similar concept of addictions to alcohol. Some people have it in their genes to be alcoholics. If they choose to give in to alcoholism, they are choosing to become addicted to it, and being addicted to anything restricts your choice. Therefore, it would be easy for them to say "its not my choice to drink, i couldnt function without it"

Everyone has a road they are asked to walk. It is not my place to judge Hewitt for how he has walked his, but I can come to the conclusion that It is in my genes to be a sinner. Doesnt mean i was born to be a sinner though. I have all kinds of attractions to envy, lie, steal, harm someone else, and worst of all cut off that jerk that didnt use his blinker. If i am to be a loving person though, i must not obey the carnal mind, but rather the spiritual.

Not making this up at all, i have three males who have same sex attraction in my life, one is my uncle, who chooses to be openly gay, a Zone leader from my mission a year ago who just came out of the closet and now is openly a cross dresser, and a third who has been fighting same sex attraction since he was 7. All were raised in the church except for the last. He was a convert, listened to the teachings, and for the first time in 20+ years, found an attraction to a very beautiful girl. From what i understand, they dated three times and decided to part ways, but the point is, is that he walked all over that road he was asked to walk and not for a second did he look back. Sure, he's not married yet, but my believe is finding that spark that makes a mans knees weak when a beautiful woman walks in a room was a huge mountain my dear friend climbed.

Fighting same sex attraction will always seem like a victory that can never be won. The only reason i know this is because same sex attraction is a sin, just like my weaknesses are sins, and my battle for self mastery always seems like a longshot. Your an Atheist and I am a Christian, knowing we cant find a religious middle ground, take a lesson from nature. Jim Watkins once said " A river cuts through rock, not because of its power, but rather its persistence."

With God all things are possible my friend.

1 I do embrace who you are because who you are is not what you are. Your identity as a spiritual child of God has nothing to do with your choice of behaving homosexually.

2 I need God because he helps me just like he helped my friend. I cant do this alone, otherwise I would have given into my specific carnal attractions a long time ago

Bless your heart and soul Eleven, this is so humbly real what you've shared and I cannot express in enough words how much your testimony has contributed to my faith and hope of one love. I have a friend who is Samoan and he is gay, we've talked and I've asked him "You have all the physical necessities of the male body yet you feel psychologically that your a female?". Mind you my friend is 6'4 and quite stalky but he dresses like a female from the make-up to the tight clothes. He also is a member of the LDS faith, he told me that he knows that he is a male but his inclinations has the best of him, he even stated eventually he wants to have a family of his own. The fact that he was honest about his sexuality allowed me to understand his weaknesses of same sex attractions. I know that many have different circumstances of same sex attractions, but if one is capable of disciplining such attraction I would think the same as the heteros or even myself abstainng from having multiple sexual partners and activites, it's human nature to have physical inclinations it's very spiritual to discern from such immoral conducts. I believe that through time and faith some can overcome and some cannot. My friend believes in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, but he still drinks, smokes, and is sexually active. I don't judge him for that he has his free agency but I'm very hopeful that the light will come into his life sooner or later, than never.

[mnn727]

I contend that it should be taught, and that those who find themselves converting to faith because they do not want to go to hell have just as much right to the kingdom as those who respond to the love and grace of our Sovereign.

Sorry PC - but I have to disagree. One purpose of us being here is to learn to choose Good over evil, right over wrong, because its the right thing to do, not because we fear punishment. for someone who only avoids sin because of the punishment factor, if the fear of punishment goes away, then so does the change in behavior. There has to be a change in heart.

The fear of the death penalty in TX does not prevent me from murdering people - the knowledge that its wrong to do so and the fact that I (try to) love my fellow human beings is what stops me.

Edited July 16, 2012 by mnn727

[Misshalfway]

What would be a solution for such anger or grievance? Do we add to the fuel or do we help comfort those who stand in need of comfort?

Yes. I think you understand.

[Misshalfway]

My personal opinion is that whether its in the genes, or mentality, i dont believe a portion of the attraction is a choice. BUT, it is a choice to act on those attractions, and the more you act on them, the less they become a choice. I look at it as a similar concept of addictions to alcohol. Some people have it in their genes to be alcoholics. If they choose to give in to alcoholism, they are choosing to become addicted to it, and being addicted to anything restricts your choice. Therefore, it would be easy for them to say "its not my choice to drink, i couldnt function without it"

Everyone has a road they are asked to walk. It is not my place to judge Hewitt for how he has walked his, but I can come to the conclusion that It is in my genes to be a sinner. Doesnt mean i was born to be a sinner though. I have all kinds of attractions to envy, lie, steal, harm someone else, and worst of all cut off that jerk that didnt use his blinker. If i am to be a loving person though, i must not obey the carnal mind, but rather the spiritual.

Not making this up at all, i have three males who have same sex attraction in my life, one is my uncle, who chooses to be openly gay, a Zone leader from my mission a year ago who just came out of the closet and now is openly a cross dresser, and a third who has been fighting same sex attraction since he was 7. All were raised in the church except for the last. He was a convert, listened to the teachings, and for the first time in 20+ years, found an attraction to a very beautiful girl. From what i understand, they dated three times and decided to part ways, but the point is, is that he walked all over that road he was asked to walk and not for a second did he look back. Sure, he's not married yet, but my believe is finding that spark that makes a mans knees weak when a beautiful woman walks in a room was a huge mountain my dear friend climbed.

Fighting same sex attraction will always seem like a victory that can never be won. The only reason i know this is because same sex attraction is a sin, just like my weaknesses are sins, and my battle for self mastery always seems like a longshot. Your an Atheist and I am a Christian, knowing we cant find a religious middle ground, take a lesson from nature. Jim Watkins once said " A river cuts through rock, not because of its power, but rather its persistence."

With God all things are possible my friend.

1 I do embrace who you are because who you are is not what you are. Your identity as a spiritual child of God has nothing to do with your choice of behaving homosexually.

2 I need God because he helps me just like he helped my friend. I cant do this alone, otherwise I would have given into my specific carnal attractions a long time ago

Yeah. You've got some good stuff here.

Hewitt, if you are still posting, how would you speak to this post?... this idea of a higher self mastering the more carnal self?

In my view, this is the process by which we develop the higher emotions that you've talked about.

And if you do see value in this perspective, how do you think that this principle relates to human sexuality? And how does the mastery of ones sexual feelings relate to character building in your view?

We humans have lots of passions intermingled in all that potential we carry to love and forgive each other. Sexuality is only one of them. Can you see value in any form disciplined living?

[prisonchaplain]

Sorry PC - but I have to disagree. One purpose of us being here is to learn to choose Good over evil, right over wrong, because its the right thing to do, not because we fear punishment. for someone who only avoids sin because of the punishment factor, if the fear of punishment goes away, then so does the change in behavior. There has to be a change in heart.

The fear of the death penalty in TX does not prevent me from murdering people - the knowledge that its wrong to do so and the fact that I (try to) love my fellow human beings is what stops me.

There are ethicists, and even education theorists, who agree with you. As an end-goal, I do too. However, keep in mind that Solomon said the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fear may drive some into the kingdom--even the Telestial one. Grace, love, and hungering and thirsting after righteousness may be what propels them to higher glory.

So, to clarify my point--whether one finds the straight and narrow way by an appeal to love or by the fear of hell, what matters is that they begin their journey on that gospel road. The higher motivations will come.

[Traveler]

There are ethicists, and even education theorists, who agree with you. As an end-goal, I do too. However, keep in mind that Solomon said the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fear may drive some into the kingdom--even the Telestial one. Grace, love, and hungering and thirsting after righteousness may be what propels them to higher glory.

So, to clarify my point--whether one finds the straight and narrow way by an appeal to love or by the fear of hell, what matters is that they begin their journey on that gospel road. The higher motivations will come.

I am not an expert in ancient scripture but I believe this particular use of "fear" has other possible translations in English - such as respect and honor - even reverence.

Just as another point - I spent 40 days surviving in the desert - at one point I nearly died of dehydration. What I learned is very few in our modern society really understand hunger and thirst. Truly hungry and thirsty individuals are never picky but will eat and drink anything they can get.

The Traveler