Open question for VORT

[RMGuy]

Vort,

I have a question that I am curious as to how you would answer, and why. Of course the question is open to anyone, but I am really interested in Vort's response.

I know from our past discussions that you have talked about the value that you place upon loyalty. That it is a very bright star in your personal constellation, and that is why I am so interested in your response.

Were you to find your integrity (what you honestly believe or know to be true) to be in conflict with your loyalty (what the church or a leader was telling you to do/be true) how would you act...which value would you follow?

I know that the "easy" answer, if there is one is to say that this type of a situation would never happen. I think it happens to all of us to a greater or lesser degree however, and I am interested not just in which one you would select, but perhaps more importantly, your thought process as you weighed through those decisions.

and a very sincere thank you.

PS Vort - does the word Fiero have any special significance for you?

-RM

[Vort]

Vort,

I have a question that I am curious as to how you would answer, and why. Of course the question is open to anyone, but I am really interested in Vort's response.

I know from our past discussions that you have talked about the value that you place upon loyalty. That it is a very bright star in your personal constellation, and that is why I am so interested in your response.

Were you to find your integrity (what you honestly believe or know to be true) to be in conflict with your loyalty (what the church or a leader was telling you to do/be true) how would you act...which value would you follow?

I guess I would have to see the situation first. I would have to weigh my feelings on each side, which of course I cannot do in a purely hypothetical situation.

What I "honestly believe or know to be true" consists of a very small subset of my knowledge set, depending of course on how you define "knowing". I am not so naive that I believe my viewpoint to be The Only True View of How Things Really Are. I also recognize that I am just as prone to prejudice as the next guy (although I am apparently more aware of this propensity than many people, and thus more likely to notice it and guard against it). Finally, I have my own individual weaknesses that I struggle with, and these weaknesses (and my struggles with and against them) often have immediate impact on what I think and do.

Let's say, for example, that I have some point of doctrine on which I believe I have had an epiphany. Maybe it is about the heavenly Mother's role, or the state of those who do not gain exaltation, or the nature of the Holy Ghost. One of these "fringe doctrines", as I have heard them called. I believe I have received some penetrating insight that shifts my entire thinking on the subject and, in a flash, makes many things crystal clear where before there had been only darkness and confusion. I feel, deep inside myself, that I know an important truth.

Now let's say that the next day, I hear a General Authority preach a sermon in which he makes reference to this particular doctrine in a way that (as I now feel quite sure) is wrong.

What is my duty? In this case, it is clear and obvious: My duty is to keep my mouth shut. It is his calling, not mine, to teach the people. If I have received revelation on the matter, it is for me alone, and not to use as a public measuring rod or a way to show everyone else how clever I am. In this case, I follow Hugh Nibley, who (according to his biographer) had his share of disagreements with the Brethren (e.g. on the question of blacks and the Priesthood), but who kept quiet on such matters and would offer his opinion only if it was in harmony with the leaders.

Now, what if instead a situation arose in my own life where I or someone I loved found myself/himself/herself out of harmony with Church teachings? For example, what if a close friend or a relative declared his or her homosexuality? In this case, the answer is clear and obvious enough: Reality does not change just because it becomes inconvenient. I have in fact found myself in such a situation. I may not have handled it very gracefully, though I honestly tried, and I let the person involved know how much I loved and cared about him or her (keeping this general and anonymous). But when giving my thoughts on the subject, I tried to be as honest as I could, which did not immediately win me any accolades. But surely truth does not change just because it has suddenly become painful!

I know that the "easy" answer, if there is one is to say that this type of a situation would never happen. I think it happens to all of us to a greater or lesser degree however, and I am interested not just in which one you would select, but perhaps more importantly, your thought process as you weighed through those decisions.

I do not believe for the smallest moment that such a situation "would never happen". Such situations happen all the time, and I believe they happen to everyone. Loyalty is not much of a virtue if it is never tested.

But I don't think I have done justice to your question. I don't know how to. Without an actual or at least well-described hypothetical situation, the above is about as well as I can do. Feel free to add detail to a situation, if you like, and I will do my best to answer in a more thorough fashion.

and a very sincere thank you.

You are welcome. We have had our less-than-pleasant moments, and I realize I have my share in those moments of unpleasantness. But I bear you no grudge.

PS Vort - does the word Fiero have any special significance for you?

Ma si! Come no? I used to think how cool it would be to drive one of those Pontiacs around, though I did hear it was sort of a piece of trash.

But seriously, when President Benson gave his famous speech on "pride", my first thought was "fierezza" versus "orgoglio", and that a simple distinction of terms would put the entire issue to rest.

[RMGuy]

Again a very sincere thank you. You have given me a lot to think about, as I knew you would, AND it was very very helpful.

As for the Fiero, someone on another forum has used two of your avatars in the past (the clown, and the androgynous individual so I thought there might have been a chance that it was you.

Again, my friend, thank you.

-RM

[NeuroTypical]

Were you to find your integrity (what you honestly believe or know to be true) to be in conflict with your loyalty (what the church or a leader was telling you to do/be true) how would you act...which value would you follow?

My wife has a very simple path through such obstacles. In her words: "I trust God to act like God, and man to act like man." She does not place human words or opinions or talks or expositions on scripture or church policy or individual behavior on the same level as scripture or revealed truth. She expects man to be what man is - fallible, error-prone, weak, biased, agenda driven, colored by current cultural understanding, usually trying to be good, sometimes trying to be evil.

Here's an example. She is on antidepressants. We have a new 1st counselor in the Bishopric who recently preaced a little outdated ignorant bullcrap over the pulpit about the role of mind-altering medication in a righteous mormon's life. She's heard it so often over the years she doesn't even react to it any more. And since she figures man's existence involves a little ignorant foolishness every now and then, she didn't even bother getting hurt by his words, or fret about whether to sustain him the next chance she gets. She raises her arm to the square all the time for all sorts of fallible, error-prone, sinful people. She's such a person herself. If she's going to have a problem with this guy, consistentcy dictates she have equal problems with everyone including herself, because we're all in the same situation. And she's got better things to do than carry the burden of being offended by all the dumb things people have said to or about her for decades.

I have a similar phrase which helps me figure out where my loyalty lies: "The only good reason to be a Mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one." Except after drinking the dregs of church criticism, the only thing I really have a problem with these days is I hate ties.

[Vort]

As for the Fiero, someone on another forum has used two of your avatars in the past (the clown, and the androgynous individual so I thought there might have been a chance that it was you.

The only other lists I participate on are a BYU sports discussion list and a small LDS-oriented discussion list run by a friend. On neither of those am I "Fiero", so I can't help you.

[beefche]

Is the "we can ask Vort any question we like" thread?

How do you deal halitosis? What has worked best for you? What do you suggest to get those stubborn stains from white clothes? How do you fix a flat? What do you use for shampoo to get that shiny, healthy looking hair?

[prisonchaplain]

I saw an extreme example of this dilemma. An individual in another religion reached the pinnacle of leadership. He'd given decades of his life to the movement. When he saw how decisions were being made, and started to examine his beliefs he came to a crisis of conscience. Ultimately he was disloyal. He left the movement. Afterwards, he did write a book--one that I read. His writing was cautious, detailed, and understated. Nevertheless, he was dismissed as an apostate and a traitor.

I believe he became a Christian. The phrase "traditional" probably does not apply well to him. He remains skeptical of spiritual authority in any structure (due to the abuse he saw). As of the writing of his book he was participating in some home-based Bible studies, but was not yet able to trust himself to a church.

In reading the book, I did not agree with all of his takeaway. However, he did seem to handle his dilemma with class and sincerity.

[Vort]

Sorry, I wouldn't know anything about halitosis. My breath is minty fresh pretty much 24/7. And my children are always obedient. And my home teaching is finished by the seventh of the month.

[applepansy]

Sorry, I wouldn't know anything about halitosis. My breath is minty fresh pretty much 24/7. And my children are always obedient. And my home teaching is finished by the seventh of the month.

I was prepared to believe you until you got to the bolded part.

[Guest]

Should my husband register our new business as a corporation or LLC? Any tips on getting some capital?

[pam]

Sorry, I wouldn't know anything about halitosis. My breath is minty fresh pretty much 24/7. And my children are always obedient. And my home teaching is finished by the seventh of the month.

How do you feel about people that might fudge the truth somewhat?

[RMGuy]

Just addressed to Vort for two reasons:

1. Because while we disagree on many things, I know I will always get what he really thinks.

2. Because I know how important loyalty is to him, I felt he might have some unique insight that may be beneficial. He did, and I thank him for it.

-RM

[prisonchaplain]

I was prepared to believe you until you got to the bolded part.

I thought true Christians of all stripes had obedient children. Am I missing something???

[MorningStar]

How do you feel about feeding children vinegar? How do you like it when your home teaching families call you on Thanksgiving for a blessing because one of them can't stop puking?

Edited August 29, 2012 by MorningStar
How do you feel about typos?

[Vort]

You have a problem with feeding kids vinegar? If it's any consolation to you, I only do that for my home teaching families that I really like.

[beefche]

You have a problem with feeding kids vinegar? If it's any consolation to you, I only do that for my home teaching families that I really like.

You only feed vinegar to the home teaching families you LIKE? What in the world do you do to the ones you DON'T like?????

[Vort]

Morningstar, what was that home teaching lesson about? I remember Morningstar Jr. drinking the vinegar, but I can't quite remember what the point was. That some things that look good aren't, maybe? Or to trust your parents and not your shameless, lying home teacher?

[Vort]

You only feed vinegar to the home teaching families you LIKE? What in the world do you do to the ones you DON'T like?????

There are some questions better left unasked, beefche.

[MorningStar]

Hahaha!!!! It was about listening to your parents because your parents know what's bad for you.

Vort brought over a jug of vinegar and my son who was maybe 5 or 6 was asked to smell it. He then dipped his finger in for a little taste and Vort said, "Do you like that?" He nodded. "Would you like to drink a whole cup of it?" "No."

So he poured vinegar in two cups and water in another cup. He said he was going to tell his parents which one had the water in it and whichever cup he picked up, he had to drink it.

He really wanted the blue cup, but the green sippy cup had the water in it. We said, "Drink the green one." He grabbed the blue one and started to pick it up. Vort said, "Remember, your parents know which one has the water in it and you have to drink the one you pick up."

So our son took a big swig of vinegar! He looked like he was going to cry/puke. I yelled, "DRINK THE WATER!" He had no doubt at that point that the green one really did have the water in it and it couldn't have been a better object lesson for him. Vort said some things in life are like vinegar and we might not know it, but our parents know. Playing too much Xbox could be like vinegar.

Our son is 12 now and he still remembers that. And sometimes we remind him that certain things are like drinking the vinegar.

[Vort]

Our son is 12 now and he still remembers that. And sometimes we remind him that certain things are like drinking the vinegar.

And for the record, he's a good-looking kid who gives great talks.

[mordorbund]

I thought true Christians of all stripes had obedient children. Am I missing something???

Those children are obedient because of their "stripes". And if you were a true Christian, you wouldn't miss.

[Guest]

Hahaha!!!! It was about listening to your parents because your parents know what's bad for you.

Vort brought over a jug of vinegar and my son who was maybe 5 or 6 was asked to smell it. He then dipped his finger in for a little taste and Vort said, "Do you like that?" He nodded. "Would you like to drink a whole cup of it?" "No."

So he poured vinegar in two cups and water in another cup. He said he was going to tell his parents which one had the water in it and whichever cup he picked up, he had to drink it.

He really wanted the blue cup, but the green sippy cup had the water in it. We said, "Drink the green one." He grabbed the blue one and started to pick it up. Vort said, "Remember, your parents know which one has the water in it and you have to drink the one you pick up."

So our son took a big swig of vinegar! He looked like he was going to cry/puke. I yelled, "DRINK THE WATER!" He had no doubt at that point that the green one really did have the water in it and it couldn't have been a better object lesson for him. Vort said some things in life are like vinegar and we might not know it, but our parents know. Playing too much Xbox could be like vinegar.

Our son is 12 now and he still remembers that. And sometimes we remind him that certain things are like drinking the vinegar.

THIS IS AWESOME!

So, the Primary Theme for the year is Choose The Right. I would LOVE to do this in Primary! Do you think I'll get sent to the bishop's office if some kids end up drinking the vinegar?

[prisonchaplain]

Anatess, I do not pretend to know the culture of LDS Wards, but I have hunch that they might just transport you to the Stake President's office...

[Dravin]

Anatess, I do not pretend to know the culture of LDS Wards, but I have hunch that they might just transport you to the Stake President's office...

If we're lucky it'll make the headlines: LDS WOMAN FEEDS CHILDREN ACID

[MorningStar]

THIS IS AWESOME!

So, the Primary Theme for the year is Choose The Right. I would LOVE to do this in Primary! Do you think I'll get sent to the bishop's office if some kids end up drinking the vinegar?

Probably. But totally worth it.