Why use our agency?

[TheRiddler]

I am an early morning seminary teacher. This morning I was asked by one of my students, "If Heavenly Father knows what I am going to do before I do it, why do I have to come to earth and use my agency?" I felt that I answered it okay but by the look on her face I don't think it satisfied her. Wondering how others would answer this question?

[Vort]

If my wife knows I'm going to take the bus to work before I take it, why do I have to take the bus in anyway?

The benefit comes in the doing of the action, not merely in knowing the outcome. Knowing that I can buy ice cream if I go to Baskin-Robbins is not the same as going to Baskin-Robbins and buying ice cream.

[TheRiddler]

Vort,

Thank you! Great simple way of putting it. I will definitely use both of these tomorrow morning. This should help her.

[john doe]

To prove it to ourselves.

[estradling75]

This life is a test... But it is not a test to prove to God what we would choose. Its to prove to ourselves what we would do. So that when God renders final judgement, we are going to look at the judgement and then look at our lives and say yep that is exactly right.

[SanctitasDeo]

I would add:

Say that we persuaded Heavenly Father to skip the agency and earth part. He would assign people to different kingdoms in what would seem a rather arbitrary way considering we didn't do anything to deserve it.

It would seem like mere reward or punishment, rather than being in the place you belong, mostly because you have not gone through the changes necessary.

I liked what Vort said: the doing is what is important. We change as we do, and the change--the becoming--is the really important part.

Being placed into the Celestial Kingdom without experience on earth would be like putting a six year old to work as a doctor.

[Anddenex]

On my mission a Jehovah Witness asked a similar question, and which is why they don't believe in a hell, so to speak.

My answer, is similar to others, just a different analogy.

In a school classroom, a teacher will typically know who is going to pass and who is going to fail by the time the final test is needing to be taken. As the teacher is handing out the final test, the teacher steps up to the student and says, "Jay, since I already know you are going to fail, don't worry about taking the test."

I then asked the individual, "Would this be fair? Or is it actually fair to let the individual take the test?"

He seemed to get the idea.

[Dravin]

It would seem like mere reward or punishment, rather than being in the place you belong, mostly because you have not gone through the changes necessary.

I liked what Vort said: the doing is what is important. We change as we do, and the change--the becoming--is the really important part.

This is key I think. Life is a test of becoming. Regardless of if God knows what we will become we actually have to get our boots in the mud to become what we will. This life is for our benefit, not an experiment to confirm God's hypothesis that on Thursday we'll eat three donuts.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Dravin

[Traveler]

Perhaps I may add something. There is more to "Agency" than choice. Imbedded into agency is covenant and is an extension of all we have worked for through the eternities before we came to earth. Agency is simply being rewarded according to covenant, for all we learned under the direction of our teachers (the Father and the Son and others) as we continue in our journey to become one with G-d or Satan. Any choice that does not impact directly our becoming like G-d or Satan has nothing what-so-ever to do with agency.

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

I am an early morning seminary teacher. This morning I was asked by one of my students, "If Heavenly Father knows what I am going to do before I do it, why do I have to come to earth and use my agency?" I felt that I answered it okay but by the look on her face I don't think it satisfied her. Wondering how others would answer this question?

Because that is what we fought for, the right to be able to be independant- to be our own.

Someone else may know everything about us down to the smallest micron, but all that will never help ourselves if we don't come to know and gain the ability to control ourselves.

Knowing does not cause things to happen. You can know all the knowledge in the universe, but if you choose to sit on your tush and do nothing with it, what happens?

Why would this be different for God?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Blackmarch

[rameumptom]

In the realm of Christian and LDS philosophy, this is a big discussion area. Blake Ostler wrote on this in his series, Exploring Mormon Thought. In his discussion of free will, he suggests that God does not know the future, but does know all things that can be known to this point in time. With that, God is then the expert chess player, who can anticipate every future move.

Not all LDS philosophers agree with this. Some have taught of a "middle knowledge", also known as compatibilism. There are a few different versions of this. One is that while God knows all things, he can choose which things he will focus on, and basically look the other way on other things. Another suggests that God knows all things, but has given to Christ to deal with this earth, and Jesus not knowing all things regarding our timeline.

The discussions get very deep and not easily explained. But here are a few links where you can read up on some of the concepts:

Search Results ostler free will : Mormon Metaphysics

Mormon Philosophy & Theology

Mormon Philosophy & Theology (see the posts on Attributes of God)

Blake Ostler's Mormon Publications Site

Element: a Journal of Mormon Philosophy and Theology

Again, this study is not for the faint hearted. Blake's books gave me a nose bleed when I started studying them. Now, my brain is rewired, and I can actually talk some philosophy with the great LDS minds in the field. But the study is a good one to see how different LDS scholars try to understand and deal with it.

[szorgalmasan]

I had a similar question from a student when I was a seminary teacher. I referred them to:

D&C 101:78 - That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

According to LDS doctrine, Heavenly Father is a righteous judge, and therefore will not hold people accountable for sins that they have not committed, even if he knew that they would have committed them. We could not be judged for our actions without being sent to Earth to act according to our own agency...that would be like arresting a person for drunk driving on his way to the bar and before he got drunk.

Also refer to Alma and Amulek being restrained from stopping the wicked from throwing the righteous into a pit of flames. God allowed it specifically so that he could judge them righteously.

Edited September 27, 2012 by szorgalmasan

[mikbone]

1) God could have made a computer simulation of our entire lives from our progression prior to earth life, thru this test and beyond, and in a split second had the results of everyones score. What then? Would He then say OK Bobby did poorly. Then make his spirit, give him a resurrected body and then condemn him to outer darkness? And Holly does swell she gets created and is sent to the Celestial Kingdom. Do we hook her up with another good simulation (Dan) and send them off to create other worlds. Do we fill Holly and Dan's brain with false memories and expect them to continue to make good decisions? Sounds absurd no?

2) Experience is essential. Without the hardcore understanding of the consequences of our decisions we don't really have an education. Would you prefer to have Brother Uchtdorf or my 12 year old son pilot your next transcontinental flight (my son is really good on flight simulators).

3) Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty, cause and effect.

4) Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Edited September 27, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am an early morning seminary teacher. This morning I was asked by one of my students, "If Heavenly Father knows what I am going to do before I do it, why do I have to come to earth and use my agency?" I felt that I answered it okay but by the look on her face I don't think it satisfied her. Wondering how others would answer this question?

In addition to what everyone else has said (which I think are all right and more exact answers), I would also say that God's glory is dependent on the realization of acts and not just the potential. I think this is revealed by the statement that the glory and work of God is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man. In other words, the glory pertaining to acts depends on "bringing them to pass" not just an awareness of the potential. There is a glory attached to the fulfillment of promises more than the promise alone brings.

Since I snoozed through Seminary maybe I didn't pick up on this as well as I should but I think there is a difference between saying, someday I will graduate from High School versus I have graduated from High School.

On the more blasphemous side of things, one could ask the same question about God having spirit children that He knew would some day be cast out. Or why would God call many but choose few. Why were the callings made in the first place, or the foreodinations if God knows who is going to be worthy of such missions and callings and who would not?

When a person is allowed to be an agent unto themselves there may be a component of that that is not entirely predictable or certain as opposed to things and principles that pertain to being acted on. This may be why a second estate test in which the true nature of a person is revealed more specifically then just the intellectual agreement to the plan made in the first estate test.

[C_T_R]

Heavenly Father knows what we're going to do "before" we do it because he is in another dimension. I really believe that in His dimension this mortal experience has already played out. So it's not an issue of agency... He just already knows what our clinical experience is. Time is such a limiting dimension.

[idahommie]

I think that we all may be pre-ordained to do great things, I don't believe in predestination. There would be no reason to come and get our earthly body if no matter what our future actions are written in stone. T would be a useless step in the atonement, an our Heavenly Father does not do anything uselessly. I just can't buy into the predestination theory, and I don't believe the church teaches it.

[Traveler]

There are two basic problems are questions that are involved in this question. There may be more - but this is all that I see. If others do not see these two conditions as the basic possibilities or if they see other possibilities - I would be interested.

1. Are there elements of our lives that have been predetermined? The obvious answer to that question, at least for me is absolutely yes. In fact there are several scriptures that indicate that very principle - for example Abraham chapter 3 and Alma Chapter 13.

It would seem to me that anyone that has observed and experienced life has realized that there are "things" that happen that seem to be encased in a destiny and beyond our control that shows strong indications of some sort of pre-aranged plan. Therefore, I believe the question in reality, is not if there are preexisting conditions but to what extent they exist. Thus the argument is not if there is a plan but how much possibility and to what extent is there; that we can exercise individual "free will" to change the outcome?

2. According to LDS theology - we believe that we existed before we were born and we believe that we had intelligence and to some extent - free will. Therefore the question becomes how much input and determination did we have in choosing our destiny in this life and how much is forced upon us without our consent or knowledge. In other words how much, if there is anything, in this life that can happen to us that we did not know as a possibility in our pre-existence?

Some argue that we get to make many decisions during this life - like if we will have eggs or cereal for breakfast. My point is that such thinking has little or no bearing concerning the question unless that choice changes the destiny and outcome of our purpose in life. If a choice does not change anything important - it is a trivial choice that does not matter by the very point that it is trivial and therefore is not really an arguable expression of free will.

But all this only brings us to the question at hand - which is why use our agency? The answer is that the use of our agency is the essence of the plan and the means to maximize our investment in coming to earth in the first place - to experience mortal life. It is our only shot - ever - at this experience - why not get the most of what we want or desire out of it?

The Traveler

Edited September 28, 2012 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Time is such a limiting dimension.

How do you know that?

The passage of time allows for the realization of events, the ability to say that something has been brought to pass. In timelessness there is no past tense. Genesis says " God saw that it was good" many times over. Is that statement false? Should it read, "God sees that it is good"? There we are given many examples of the value of actually doing things and not just planning on doing them. Additionally, there would be no completion or realization or "bringing to pass" of anything. But because timelessness is a man made concept there are a lot of holes in that idea.

I believe that God has a different perspective of time but I also believe that He experiences the passage of time. Otherwise, God would not have a past, present or future, then we would have something God does not have.

Saying the 'sun has risen' means something more than saying 'the sun will rise' or 'the sun rises'. The passage of time allows for all three statements to be made whereas timelessness does not. The lack of passage of time is much more limiting, even though of course we are talking about some hypothetical, man made non-existent concept.

And btw, (just because this is the common response to these statements) having all things present does not mean there is no passage of time, or timelessness. All things can be present (meaning awareness of) and yet what is past, present and future moves with the passage of time.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Some argue that we get to make many decisions during this life - like if we will have eggs or cereal for breakfast. My point is that such thinking has little or no bearing concerning the question unless that choice changes the destiny and outcome of our purpose in life. If a choice does not change anything important - it is a trivial choice that does not matter by the very point that it is trivial and therefore is not really an arguable expression of free will.

The Traveler

How does one know that something is trivial? I think there are many things in this life that people judge as being trivial that may not be. Such as simple obedience. The experience of choosing to obey, fasting on one Fast Sunday, for example, may not change (in any great way) a person's already chosen level of obedience as they have fasted every fast Sunday before that day and every Fast Sunday there after. But it might have an effect on the resolve and integrity of that individual in the world to come.

Experiencing any little thing that brings joy may have an effect on the individual in ways that are very difficult to measure the long term effects as the immediate ones tend to be used to judge whether it is trivial or not. If my husband decides to watch MMA, for example, as opposed to working on playing the guitar, he may find immediate enjoyment in the watching the MMA but maybe he is sacrificing an even better experience by learning to play an instrument. Maybe my son becomes infatuated with MMA instead of finding interest in more academic pursuits because of my husband's choices. And then a seemingly trivial choice becomes something more. (the example may or may not be true - just an example)

I think it is nearly impossible for us to determine what is trivial or not.

[jerome1232]

I think it is nearly impossible for us to determine what is trivial or not.

I completely agree, the analogy of a butterfly flapping it's wings comes to mind.

Small "trivial choices" can have large non-trivial impacts. I would even go so far as to say "big decisions" are more often chains of smaller choices, which viewed separately would seem trivial.

Edited September 29, 2012 by jerome1232

[Misshalfway]

I am an early morning seminary teacher. This morning I was asked by one of my students, "If Heavenly Father knows what I am going to do before I do it, why do I have to come to earth and use my agency?" I felt that I answered it okay but by the look on her face I don't think it satisfied her. Wondering how others would answer this question?

Well, we could try coming down here without agency. That would be....interesting.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon TheRiddler! I hope that you are enjoying today. :)

I am an early morning seminary teacher. This morning I was asked by one of my students, "If Heavenly Father knows what I am going to do before I do it, why do I have to come to earth and use my agency?" I felt that I answered it okay but by the look on her face I don't think it satisfied her. Wondering how others would answer this question?

This goes along the lines of what has already been posted but our condition is one where we must learn and become through experience. Skipping the experience part would short circuit God's plan. It would destroy our agency and free will. We must make the decision to experience this life and we make the decision to continue to experience this life.

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good afternoon TheRiddler! I hope that you are enjoying today. :)

This goes along the lines of what has already been posted but our condition is one where we must learn and become through experience. Skipping the experience part would short circuit God's plan. It would destroy our agency and free will. We must make the decision to experience this life and we make the decision to continue to experience this life.

Regards,

Finrock

So what mortal trial experience does a child born with anencephaly ("no brain" or at least no forebrain) and dies within hours to days get that you think is necessary and thus "short circuit" that individual's entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

If it is just the willingness to face the experience, then that is the first estate test.

[Finrock]

Good evening Seminarysnoozer! I hope you have had a good week. :)

So what mortal trial experience does a child born with anencephaly ("no brain" or at least no forebrain) and dies within hours to days get that you think is necessary and thus "short circuit" that individual's entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

Can you ask your question in a different way, please, and if you can, will you? As it stands, your question does not appear to be asking me about something that I was saying in my post.

Regards,

Finrock

[Traveler]

So what mortal trial experience does a child born with anencephaly ("no brain" or at least no forebrain) and dies within hours to days get that you think is necessary and thus "short circuit" that individual's entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

If it is just the willingness to face the experience, then that is the first estate test.

Interesting - if the physical is very limited or handicapped should not the spirit dominate? And is it not the spirit that gives life according to scripture? Why then; when the spirit dominates an individual is their life shortened? Assuming that there are two competing parts to each individual?

The Traveler