Feeling Betrayed

[busfeliz]

I do no think that my husband is a con man. I think he just does not understand bounderies and when to draw the line on what is appropriate and what is not. He is very outgoing and very social...always has been. But it was always, in my opnion, appropriate and within the right bouderies. Now I feel like they are not, ie: private facebook messages with girls that I don't know and A few days ago...a cheeleader for a local semi-pro football team showed up to our house to hand deliver his cheerleading calender. (some promotional thing they do for everyone who buys the calender...I know this to be true because I checked it out.) The girls were fully clothes, but they were sexy clothes. He didn't think buying the calender was wrong. I think it is inapropriate.

[mdfxdb]

The real problem here is he said he would do one thing, and he did another. This isn't necessarially about the approiateness of the type of photos, but rather that he lied to his wife, and then tried to conceal the lie. The second problem is if he is engaging in inappropriate means of solicitation for photoshoots (flirting). That is not a condoned way to get photo shoots.

It is common practice for photographers to try to build their portfolio by doing non-compensated shoots. There are lots of ways for them to contact models, "flirting" would not be one of them and is unprofessional.

As far as the type of shoot. Most photographers are too busy concerned with lighting, posing, camera position, lens selection,.......to worry about getting aroused during this type of shoot. If you are serious about what you are trying to capture this just does not happen. As far as his arousal taking pictures of you...well you're his wife..

[BenRaines]

I personally think having a Sports Illustrated Swimwear issue is inappropriate for a member of the LDS church to have.

Call me old fashioned or a prude but it is not right by me.

Ben Raines

[Wingnut]

I just dont get how they are ok. There is clear sexual intent so how it is appropriate to get people out of the marriage involved? Does anyone believe they are planning on putting the photographs on the living room wall?

Usually boudoir photographs are made into an album that is kept in a dresser drawer, a calendar kept in the bedroom, or even sometimes a wall canvas also keep in the master bedroom or bathroom. Rarely on the living room wall.

Maybe some guys are ok with some other guy taking photos of their wife semi nude.

Some guys might be.

My husband was furious and hurt that his first wife did that.

I can understand that. Most women, though, aren't actually comfortable with a male photographer in a boudoir setting, much like they're more comfortable with a female gynecologist.

The OP's husband is behaving in a rather expensive way to see real life nude/semi women. My gosh it is an oldtime way to con girls and women. Hand out the photographers card to pretty women or girls to get them into a private room to have a 'fun' session. Using facebook is just a new version of the business cards.

I would not trust him an inch. Sorry for being so suspicious but the situation does not met any kind of criteria for trust.

I agree with all this.

If what he's doing is so appropriate, he should be able to take you along or cc you in his emails.

It would be extremely unprofessional to do so, unless his wife was a competent photography assistant, able to help with lighting, styling, and posing.

The fact that he is seeking women out is weird and if they want that kind of photo, he can be a big boy and say, "I don't do that kind." That should be discussed before the shoot.

No one shows up to a shoot and says, "oh yeah, can we do this in my underwear?" Boudoir photography is its own genre, like weddings, newborns, seniors, birth, headshots, etc.

[Wingnut]

As a follow-up, when my husband got home from work, I talked with him about this, over dinner. Here's our conversation:

========================

Me: If I had the experience, expertise, and equipment, how would you feel about me doing boudoir photography?

Him: Of men?

Me: No, I wouldn't be comfortable shooting men or couples.

Him: Then what do I care?

Me: If, for Valentine's Day, your birthday, or our anniversary, I gave you an album of boudoir photographs of me, what would be your reaction?

Him: At your current weight?

Me: Jerk. This is a hypothetical.

Him: Oh, okay. (shrugs shoulders) I'd figure that I just bought you the remote shutter trigger for your camera, you shot them yourself, and I'd enjoy them!

Me: You wouldn't wonder who shot them? Who I stripped down in front of?

Him: No.

Me: Being an active, married, temple-going LDS member, would it bother you if you knew it was a male photographer?

Him: What was your plan to protect yourself? Mace? Taser? Panic button? Among the things that would worry me, your covenants are at the bottom of the list.

Me: Assuming my photographer was a female that I trusted and was comfortable with, would you care?

Him: Nope.

Me: That's what I figured.

Him: If you were to shoot men, my question would be the same: what are you doing to protect yourself? If you ever do shoot boudoir, though, I don't want to be around when you're processing the images.

Me: I'd take care to do my editing when you're at work or asleep, and when the girls are at school or napping or in bed.

Him: Thank you. I appreciate that.

========================

This probably makes us fairly unique, I realize. I think that if you read carefully what I've written on this thread, you'll see that I've defended boudoir photography as art, but not the OP's husband's actions. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Guest gopecon]

Put me down as a guy who thinks that there is little to nothing that is appropriate about this mans behavior. Hope the counseling helps, there are real problems here.

[Backroads]

I think that if you read carefully what I've written on this thread, you'll see that I've defended boudoir photography as art, but not the OP's husband's actions. Quite the opposite, in fact.

That's how I interpreted your comments.

I'm thinking some people are getting more upset about the photos than the inappropriate actions of the husband, and I think the former shows a much deeper problem. The photos are a red herring.

[Wingnut]

I'm thinking some people are getting more upset about the photos than the inappropriate actions of the husband, and I think the former shows a much deeper problem. The photos are a red herring.

I very much agree. It's not about the photos themselves (though I understand they're hurtful to the OP, and I'm not intending to minimize that). The issues I see at hand here are betrayal and a lack of trust, communication, and appropriate boundaries.

[annewandering]

That's how I interpreted your comments.

I'm thinking some people are getting more upset about the photos than the inappropriate actions of the husband, and I think the former shows a much deeper problem. The photos are a red herring.

I think they are both inappropriate. :) If the husband really wants to get into photography then perhaps a class in how to set up and conduct a photography business might be in order. It takes more than an expensive camera and shooting talent.

[mdfxdb]

There is only one clear cut action of inappropriateness..Which is that the husband lied to his wife. We do not know what the photos look like or the content of them. Also, as far as getting a calander delivered to the house. That can be ok as long as the wife is ok with it. If she is uncomfortable she needs to make that clear to her husband and he needs to not do it.

[Backroads]

My further thoughts is if the OP would be as upset if we were performing the same actions (not asking for her advice or support in this amateur photography business, making inappropriate contacts with women, etc) if he were not shooting this type of photo. Anne's right, both could be considered inappropriate, but which set of actions is worse? I personally find his actions of secrecy and deceit a lot more harmful to the marriage than if he were innocently but idiotically getting into a more risque photo business (not saying his actions here are innocent, just giving the benefit of the doubt to make my point).

[dahlia]

I personally think having a Sports Illustrated Swimwear issue is inappropriate for a member of the LDS church to have.

Call me old fashioned or a prude but it is not right by me.

Ben Raines

I guess I joined the right church. My son would get that issue with his subscription and I'd hate to see it in the house. Maybe it is my latent feminism, but there seems to be something wrong with that issue on a lot of levels.

OP - back when I was in undergrad, I had a friend who had nude 'art' photos of her taken by some dude she met on the street. She thought she was being a model, he was getting his jollies.

I know my late husband would have hit the roof if I had boudoir pictures taken because he'd be so concerned about who took the pictures. The fact that your husband is doing all this and isn't getting paid is disconcerting and makes me think that this is more than just a hobby or sideline business. If he wants a hobby, he can come out here to the heartland and take pictures of old barns, like everyone else.

I'd be ticked that he spent money for this 'hobby' and that he is still doing it after knowing your feelings about it. I don't think it's porn, but boy, what's the next step, huh? Counseling is probably the right thing.

[Guest]

Boudoir photos shot of women by a man = inappropriate, in my opinion.

Boudoir photos + personal emails + flirtations over text = very, very concerning.

Listen to your intuition. You already whether his behavior is acceptable without asking strangers.

(Incidentally, Mark Mabry's story of how his career hit a standstill until he listened to the Spirit and got away from "art" photography with immodest people and fashion photography and that kind of thing, is really a great and inspirational thing. He spoke at Time Out for Women a few years ago, and it was a strong testimony of how making sacrifices to live and work within the Lord's bounds brings peace and great blessings.)

[pam]

I love Mark Mabry's work.

[talisyn]

If this were my situation I would casually mention my husband's homosexuality helping him to have a greater feeling of the art of his work, without any lusty thoughts interrupting the purity. But that's just me.

[NeuroTypical]

I would consider this an ultimatum-giving situation, if we didn't have children. "It's time to choose honey. Me, or these women. Just pick - be honest - this will be the permanent answer for the rest of your life. I will proceed to move forward with your answer. If you refuse to answer, I'll assume it's not me".

If we did have children, I'd strongly push counseling, and explore the idea of getting him to go live somewhere else until he decided to cleave unto me and only me, and get serious about the marriage.

[Guest DeborahC]

Perhaps YOU could volunteer to be his assistant?

I wonder how he'd respond to that?

[Finrock]

Good morning busfeliz. Welcome to the forums! :)

My husband took up photography as a hobby. He started photographing beautiful women. I didn't like this but I didn't protest because he felt like he finally found something that he was good at and was getting a lot of praise for it. I drew the line at budoir photos though. About a week ago, he lied to me and told me he was taking regular photos when it was acutally a budoir photo shoot. I found out because I found some e-mails back and forth between my husband and this woman. I found other messages from women that I considered inappropriate. I am so crushed by this. Am I overreacting? I really do feel as though he cheated on me. How do I trust him again? I have so much anxiety now, all I can think about is what he is doing and who has he talked to and why. Who has been text messaging him and why. Today I even found myself trying to hack into his facebook account.

Regardless of personal standards and opinions expressed in this thread, the truth is, based on standards God has defined, what your husband is doing is wrong.

The photos are inappropriate and so is the dishonesty.

It is not right for your husband to be looking at other women partially nude. Saying that it is only "professional" and just a "hobby" as if this justifies it, is bullcrap.

From Handbook 2:

"The Lord has commanded husbands and wives to cleave to each other (see Genesis 2:24; D&C 42:22). In this commandment, the word cleave means to be completely devoted and faithful to someone. Married couples cleave to God and one another by serving and loving each other and by keeping covenants in complete fidelity to one another and to God (see D&C 25:13)...[A husband and wife] allow no other person or interest to have greater priority in their lives than keeping the covenants they have made with God and each other" (1.3.1; emphasis added).

Regards,

Finrock

Edited February 27, 2013 by Finrock
Clarification. Added link. One more quote.

[mdfxdb]

I would consider this an ultimatum-giving situation, if we didn't have children. "It's time to choose honey. Me, or these women. Just pick - be honest - this will be the permanent answer for the rest of your life. I will proceed to move forward with your answer. If you refuse to answer, I'll assume it's not me".

If we did have children, I'd strongly push counseling, and explore the idea of getting him to go live somewhere else until he decided to cleave unto me and only me, and get serious about the marriage.

so is your issue with the fact that the man lied to his wife, or with his photos? or a combination? how does this elevate to an ultimatum? Husbands should not lie to their wifes, but it happens all the time. Does this justify an ultimatum? Apparently the OP didn't know he was spending $$$ on camera equipment. Did he lie about that? Should she have divorced him then? How did she not notice the camera equipment? That stuff isn't free, how did she think he was getting it?

I guess to jump straight to an ultimatum on this case is pretty drastic is what i'm saying.

[mdfxdb]

Good morning busfeliz. Welcome to the forums! :)

Regardless of personal standards and opinions expressed in this thread, the truth is, based on standards God has defined, what your husband is doing is wrong.

The photos are inappropriate and so is the dishonesty.

It is not right for your husband to be looking at other women partially nude. Saying that it is only "professional" and just a "hobby" as if this justifies it, is bullcrap.

Regards,

Finrock

You cite the husband as looking at other women partially nude as not being "right". What if he went to a beach, what then? What if he decides to go to Hooters for lunch? I'm not defending the OP husbands actions, because it is clear to me that he wronged in his lie to his wife. Husbands shouldn't lie to their wifes, but a blanket condemnation of his other actions without knowing any particulars seems a little over the top.

[NeuroTypical]

so is your issue with the fact that the man lied to his wife, or with his photos? or a combination?

My issue is with the forming relationships with other women and taking pictures of them with little clothing, and then lying about it.

Simple choice in my eyes. You can be married to me, or you can run around taking sexy photos. Pick one.

Husbands should not lie to their wifes, but it happens all the time.

I do not lie to my wife, and she does not lie to me. We're openly transparent about every thing that approaches stuff like this.

mdfxdb, do you lie to your wife? What about? And you think that's ok because 'it happens all the time', or for other reasons?

I guess to jump straight to an ultimatum on this case is pretty drastic is what i'm saying.

There isn't any jumping to it. She drew the line at sexy pictures of other women. That's an appropriate line for mormons who have made sacred covenants of marriage, in or out of the temple. He agreed, then went and did it anyway. If you consider it 'jumping to an ultimatum', then maybe you could give a number: How many additional instances of lying about taking sexy pictures of other women should she tolerate, before an ultimatum is no longer being 'jumped to'? Five? Ten?

I mean, I'm not trying to claim my opinion is the only valid opinion. You're finding various opinions on this board. You obviously hold a different opinion. But mine is mine: If there are no children, my opinion is he needs to choose - a hobby taking sexy pictures of other women, or being married. If there are kids, I'd strongly push counseling, and seriously consider him moving out until he chooses one or the other.

[Windseeker]

You cite the husband as looking at other women partially nude as not being "right". What if he went to a beach, what then? What if he decides to go to Hooters for lunch? I'm not defending the OP husbands actions, because it is clear to me that he wronged in his lie to his wife. Husbands shouldn't lie to their wifes, but a blanket condemnation of his other actions without knowing any particulars seems a little over the top.

Why do you feel the need to go to such extremes to justify the husbands taking photos of half-naked women? Do you really think it's a valid comparison..going to a beach?

IMHO, I think simply being alone anywhere with the opposite sex should be avoided let alone with someone half naked posing provocatively. I also would not go to Hooters, and have declined to attend a work party held there last year. I also think the Sports Illustrated Swim Suit edition would be inappropriate in an LDS home.

[mdfxdb]

I agree that if his wife told him not to take boudoir style pictures then he should not have done it. Isn’t that the salient point of the argument?

If I were married I would not lie to my wife.

There is no reason to lie to a spouse. What I am trying to do is separate the act of lying from his photography hobby. They are not necessarily connected. I do not think the OP had a problem with his photography, but there were boundaries in place, and he lied about breeching those boundaries.

I do not think I am going to any extremes to justify the husband’s behavior of taking photos of half-naked women. If the OP were “OK” with him doing that then we would not be having a discussion. The fact is he lied about it.

Boudoir style photography and its subjects often times have more “clothing” on than most beach goers. Go to the beach sometime and look around, you will note most “swimsuits” are very small, most would say they are immodest. Does that mean we don't go to the beach ever? Has anyone here gone to a beach in a foreign country? What do you do then? Nudity is a lot more acceptable outside of our western society. I believe the earlier post stated:

“It is not right for your husband to be looking at other women partially nude. Saying that it is only "professional" and just a "hobby" as if this justifies it, is bullcrap.”

So, looking at other women is wrong? Or is it the context in which you look at them that is wrong? Are there 2 sins here? One would be lying, and the other would be taking pictures???

[Guest gopecon]

Even if you are right that "husbands lie to their wives" frequently (I would dispute that, but let's assume that you're right). This seems to be a lot bigger lie, about a potentially much more serious issue than telling her "No, that dress does not make you look fat." I can only imagine what my wife would say/do to me if I told her my new hobby was photographing other women that may or may not be fully clothed.

For me, this is the type of thing that could call into question this person's temple worthiness. The OP has every reason to be hurt/mad about this. If there were no kids involved, I'm with LM on the ultimatum thing.

[Guest gopecon]

"So, looking at other women is wrong? Or is it the context in which you look at them that is wrong? Are there 2 sins here? One would be lying, and the other would be taking pictures??? "

That is what we are told in the Sermon on the Mount...This person chose a hobby that seems to do exactly that. This isn't random, wayward glances that we are talking about. It is him seeking women out (via flirting, etc.) to get them to take their clothes off so he can take pictures. Maybe he can keep his mind pure and clean through it all - if so he's one of the strongest men I know of.