Feeling Betrayed

[MarginOfError]

Tell me how you can take sexy pictures of a woman in lingerie without looking at her to lust after her? The objective is to make her lustful, so by default you'd have to be in that mindset! Call me judgmental, but I'll take the word of Christ over philosophies of men any day of the week.

And we come back again: you can make those decisions for yourself. You don't get to dictate that for everyone. Each individual has the privilege of evaluating that for themselves.

When you're a bishop, though, I won't object if you take up the matter with people in your ward.

[Vort]

Tell me how you can take sexy pictures of a woman in lingerie without looking at her to lust after her? The objective is to make her lustful, so by default you'd have to be in that mindset! Call me judgmental, but I'll take the word of Christ over philosophies of men any day of the week.

Don't expect a reasoned answer to a reasonable question, Eowyn. Name-calling is much easier.

[Windseeker]

The OP came on here seeking comfort and advice but unfortunately some took it as an opportunity to defend and justify their interest and acceptance of sexual photos of women in various states of undress.

When I hear the clamor and cry of defensive justification it reveals some are still working hard on convincing themselves against something they know deep down is highly inappropriate.

Unfortunately within the first few responses the OP is on the defensive for feeling its inappropriate. I find that sad and it bothers me that in her situatio, rather than gaining clarity on her feelings, she gets befuddlement.

[estradling75]

And we come back again: you can make those decisions for yourself. You don't get to dictate that for everyone. Each individual has the privilege of evaluating that for themselves.

When you're a bishop, though, I won't object if you take up the matter with people in your ward.

Ok... so she can have an opinion... But when on an internet discussion forum where different opinions are inherently asked for she is to keep her trap shut... Because that would be dictating to some one.

Everybody you heard the dictatorial opinion of MOE... No more posting

[MarginOfError]

Ok... so she can have an opinion... But when on an internet discussion forum where different opinions are inherently asked for she is to keep her trap shut... Because that would be dictating to some one.

Everybody you heard the dictatorial opinion of MOE... No more posting

That's a gross misrepresentation of my statements. Please note that I have no problem with anyone feeling that it is inappropriate for them to participate in boudoir photography. What I have opposed is statements characterizing those who feel differently as "not having ears to hear" or unwilling to listen to the words of Christ

I don't object to people disagreeing. I do object to overt statements of unworthiness against those who disagree. That simply isn't our judgment to make.

[estradling75]

That's a gross misrepresentation of my statements. Please note that I have no problem with anyone feeling that it is inappropriate for them to participate in boudoir photography. What I have opposed is statements characterizing those who feel differently as "not having ears to hear" or unwilling to listen to the words of Christ

I don't object to people disagreeing. I do object to overt statements of unworthiness against those who disagree. That simply isn't our judgment to make.

And in your opinion they are making judgements... Which you strongly object to and you do not shy away from giving them your Judgement on how wrong they are. Thus making you as judgmental as the people you are railing against

[MorningStar]

This doesn't sound like a professional photographer, but a man who is trying to find a legitimate reason to look at women almost nude and is lying to himself about his intentions. As a woman, I would never have pictures like that taken of myself, but if I did want to, I would seek out the photographer rather than being approached by a guy who dabbles in photography. I wouldn't trust a woman who would accept that approach.

I would also find my own gynecologist vs. a guy coming up to me and telling me he has read all about how to do a breast exam. Uhhhhhhh ........

[MarginOfError]

And in your opinion they are making judgements... Which you strongly object to and you do not shy away from giving them your Judgement on how wrong they are. Thus making you as judgmental as the people you are railing against

Great. Explain to me how, exactly, my being judgmental of other people's judgmentality makes the original judgmentality any better? (or is that just a deflection technique?)

This doesn't sound like a professional photographer, but a man who is trying to find a legitimate reason to look at women almost nude and is lying to himself about his intentions. As a woman, I would never have pictures like that taken of myself, but if I did want to, I would seek out the photographer rather than being approached by a guy who dabbles in photography. I wouldn't trust a woman who would accept that approach.

I would also find my own gynecologist vs. a guy coming up to me and telling me he has read all about how to do a breast exam. Uhhhhhhh ........

Thank you!

Not to diminish from your comment, but I do want to note that this very thing has been stated here, here, here, here, here, and here

[estradling75]

Great. Explain to me how, exactly, my being judgmental of other people's judgmentality makes the original judgmentality any better? (or is that just a deflection technique?)

I never said it did. How do you expect to be taken seriously when it is clear you are wallowing in the same 'mud' that you are that you are railing against?

[busfeliz]

Wow! I was not expecting all of this... but then again I have never ventured into a forum before, so I don't know what I expected.

I do know that there is A LOT more going on in this situation then meets the eye and A LOT more then I have time to explain in a forum. We both (my husband and I) have been through many trying times in the past several years: death, substance abuse, cutting, failed businesses, intimacy issues, PTSD, depression, anxiety.

The reason I came to this forum was to get an idea of where other LDS members have drawn the line on this particular subject. I needed to feel validated for my hurt feelings. I needed to know that I wasn't the only one that felt confused about where the boundaries are. And by the responses here I can see that there is no black and white answer.

Maybe the only thing that can be agreed on is that lying to your spouse is wrong. And I know that and my husband knows that. But just because someone acknowledges that they have done something wrong and apologizes and seeks restitution, it doesn't mean all those hurt feelings dissapear. He is willing to put in the work to get our relationship back and I am too (and yes we do have 3 children) now I am just wondering how to do that. How do I regain trust, where do we draw realistic boundaries.

I in no way, shape or form justify what my husband did but I know that he loves me and he made awful decisions because he is hurting too. He has been hurting for a very long time. Like I said before, I just needed some validation that what he put me through was very painful as well. I know the only way to get through this is to turn to the Lord for comfort and forgivenss and get some counseling to work out the details. I appreciate what everyone has said.

[mdfxdb]

If your husband is truly repentant then he will turn away from lying and will only do those things which you have agreed upon with regards to his photography. Sounds like a lot of history in the relationship. Keep Christ central, pray for the ability to forgive your husband.

If you want to make it work one of you has to put forth effort. Unfortunately behaviors and emotions do not typically happen in a vaccum. If someone pokes the other is hurt, and vice versa. Hopefully, your husband will be willing to put forth the same effort, as will you. If both parties work (and it is work, real work) then the marriage can be successful.

[Wingnut]

If you want to make it work one of you has to put forth effort.

If they want to make it work, they both have to put forth effort. A marriage never works when it's only one person doing all the changing.

[mdfxdb]

If they want to make it work, they both have to put forth effort. A marriage never works when it's only one person doing all the changing.

I agree, but the effort has to start with someone, either husband or wife. If no-one starts making an effort/working, then the other will not either. In the end both parties have to want to work on the relationship, but one of them has to start it.

[Wingnut]

I agree, but the effort has to start with someone, either husband or wife. If no-one starts making an effort/working, then the other will not either. In the end both parties have to want to work on the relationship, but one of them has to start it.

Okay, that makes more sense. I misunderstood. Someone has to initiate the change -- they can't just sit around waiting for the other person to suddenly do something.

[Truth12]

have been through many trying times in the past several years: death, substance abuse, cutting, failed businesses, intimacy issues, PTSD, depression, anxiety.

This tells me that the photography is really not the issue, there are other issues that need to be addressed with a competent professional. I suspect his lying was to avoid conflict with you and that he may lie at other times to avoid your responses/reactions to what he has to say. I highly suspect that both of you are hurt from your past and it is making the present difficult.

get an idea of where other LDS members have drawn the line on this particular subjec

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I used to be a professional photographer working with fashion models and the like. There is nothing wrong with that type of photography. There is a difference between porn pics and boudoir pics, those that can't tell the difference don't understand art. For liability reasons most professionals have a third person observer at every shoot involving possible nudity (most women bring a friend when doing boudoir with a male photographer). Believing that nudity equals sex and arousal is purely a cultural belief. Sex and arousal occurs in the brain, a professional will not get aroused because their thoughts are on the technical aspects of the shoot and the art. Outside of sexualized US, nudity and the like is seldom an issue, it is the culturalization that makes it a "bad" thing. If your husband is good at it he should get paid, if he gets aroused he should stop, at the least you should be at every shoot he does and he should share everything with you.

He is willing to put in the work to get our relationship back and I am too (and yes we do have 3 children) now I am just wondering how to do that. How do I regain trust, where do we draw realistic boundaries.

Get clarity on why his actions hurt you, its not about the photography, it is something deeper. Try to identify your feelings and your reactions. His actions in the photography may have been pure desire for art, it could also be a sign that he is hurt and craves intimacy. He may not know how to express intimacy (this does not mean sex) with you. He may feel abandoned by you which may also relate to his childhood. My point is it sounds like both of you are hurt and will continue to get hurt until you can resolve the past and then live in the present.

I highly suggest a marriage therapist (MFT or LCSW) that has actual experience being married. You can pray and read the scriptures forever but that won't help "fix" the relationship. Be honest about your past (all of it, not just the present) with the therapist so they can get a clear picture. Be honest with yourself and your husband. I also suggest the book called "What you can feel, you can heal" by Dr. John Gray. It is a practical book that may help you and your husband. I highly suggest using the feeling letter exercises.

If you can't afford a therapist, talk to your bishop. The church will help out (usually a sliding fee scale) so you get the help you need. Better to get help now before it affects your children, divorce later on can be far more costly.

Make it happen...

[Vort]

Believing that nudity equals sex and arousal is purely a cultural belief...Outside of sexualized US, nudity and the like is seldom an issue

For some reason, this falsehood is popular among certain segments of the US population, even within the Church. Of course, it is patently absurd to think that only in the US does nudity imply sex, or that outside the US nudity is "seldom an issue". Whether it is vast ignorance or intentional deception at play, others should recognize this for the falsehood it is.

[Truth12]

For some reason, this falsehood is popular among certain segments of the US population

It is not a falsehood; to claim it as false shows a lack of knowledge in world culture, social environments, and the workings of the human brain. Even within the church in parts of the world you will find women with their nude breasts in plain view during sacrament mtgs., nothing sexual about it except in the mind of those raised in a different culture. Church activities held on the beach often included nude swimming, nothing sexual except in the minds of those raised in a different culture.

it is patently absurd to think that only in the US does nudity imply sex, or that outside the US nudity is "seldom an issue"

Yes there are places throughout the world where "nudity" is an issue and sex is implied. However, the point was that it is a cultural belief that differs in other countries/cultures. The belief that nudity implies sex is a learned belief instilled in the mind based on one's social environment.

[Guest]

Somehow I'm reminded of the words of Korihor. . .

16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a afrenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.

17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man afared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and bwhatsoever a man did was cno crime.

18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—

[Vort]

It is not a falsehood; to claim it as false shows a lack of knowledge in world culture, social environments, and the workings of the human brain.

I am willing to bet actual cash dollars that my knowledge of world culture, social environments, and the workings of the human brain are at least as comprehensive as yours.

Even within the church in parts of the world you will find women with their nude breasts in plain view during sacrament mtgs., nothing sexual about it except in the mind of those raised in a different culture.

Yet this has nothing to do with your original claim that I disputed. Nothing at all.

Church activities held on the beach often included nude swimming, nothing sexual except in the minds of those raised in a different culture.

Coed nude swimming?

Didn't think so. And why do you suppose not?

Oh, yes. Of course.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon busfeliz. I hope you are having a good day today. I really do! :)

The reason I came to this forum was to get an idea of where other LDS members have drawn the line on this particular subject. I needed to feel validated for my hurt feelings. I needed to know that I wasn't the only one that felt confused about where the boundaries are. And by the responses here I can see that there is no black and white answer...Maybe the only thing that can be agreed on is that lying to your spouse is wrong.

busfeliz, please don't allow comments on this thread to cause you to doubt how you feel. The answer to your situation is black and white. Taking and viewing the pictures is wrong and so is the lying. You are absolutely justified in feeling hurt, betrayed, and confused by both of the things your husband has done.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited February 28, 2013 by Finrock

[Windseeker]

Did Truth12 just compare National Geographic with Boudoir photos?

[Wingnut]

Did Truth12 just compare National Geographic with Boudoir photos?

Truth12 didn't say anything about National Geographic.

[busfeliz]

I don't know where all the talk about other cultures comes into play...we don't live in those cultures we live in this culture...a highly sexualized culture; so yes, naked women are sexual and budoir photos, especially, are sexual. That is their purpose. And I believe that being sexual is perfectly ok, as long as it is with your husband or wife. When other people get inlolved I start to have a problem.

[Truth12]

Volt....

Once again you are very judgmental and closed minded. You attack and try to discredit anyone that disagrees with your narrow way of thinking taking away from the purpose of the posts. Believe it or not the sum total of your experiences are only a small drip in the world's bucket. Your drip is only a small part of the truth that exists within the whole. Rather than condemn those you disagree with, perhaps you should try to learn.

Given your responses in several other threads it is clear that you don't understand, accept, or even acknowledge cultures outside of your experience. You may have "knowledge" of different cultures but clearly your real world experience is limited. Understanding other cultures requires much more than living in a country; there are many cultures within each country. Just the tone of your posts suggests a failure to truly understand and accept other people.

You are always on the defensive and quick to attack. Perhaps it is time you take a look and uncover why you react that way. Your way is not the only way, your truth is not always the truth for everyone else.

[Vort]

Once again you are very judgmental and closed minded. You attack and try to discredit anyone that disagrees with your narrow way of thinking taking away from the purpose of the posts.

On the contrary, I merely dispute your dismissal of what I said.

Given your responses in several other threads it is clear that you don't understand, accept, or even acknowledge cultures outside of your experience.

Translation: "You don't agree with me, so you're wrong."

The irony is palpable.