Richard Dutcher, creator of God's Army films, leaves the Church

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I'm not even LDS and I feel bad that the same soul that could help create States of Grace would end of losing faith altogether--enough to cost him his marriage, even.

Oh, States of Grace was/is my favorite of all his movies!

Time for a thread hi-jack, and if ya'll will pardon me for name dropping...

Many years back, I lived in Utah, and I belonged to a home-school group. I was the director of the theater group..we were working on a play and a new family joined our group...

You guessed it Richard Dutcher's family.

CAn you imagine how intimidating that was? To direct a little home-school play when Richard Dutcher's kids are in it? Yikes. Fortunately for me, his wife was willing to help and she is also very talented. Good times home schooling!

[Magus]

I see where both are coming from. But it happens. We've seen ministers lose their faith. An atheist group even has a "support group" for ministers who no longer believe (career transition, etc.). One rather famous mega-church pastor (former) exorcised a demon from a member. He now says he created the idea of the demon in the woman's mind, and that there is no literal devil. He's become a Universalist (believes everyone will be saved). Then, of course, there are the many sincere evangelicals who become LDS.

It's so easy to judge, to condemn, to second guess why people abandon their faith (or convert to another). I sympathize with the inclination to say their faith was never deep, never well-thought out, that they were believers "in name only" etc. The one good thing about them officially leave is that they cast aside all pretension. They know where they stand. Ironically, there's more hope for apostates than there is for hypocrites.

haha, i like that quote, about the more hope for apostates than hypocrites. Good one, I'mma use that sometime.

Yeah, I know, it is easy to judge.

Maybe it had something to do with him on an emotional level deep down. There were other things probably going on in his family life that were causing discord. And maybe the Church wasn't filling his wants. Who knows.

[Magus]

Oh, States of Grace was/is my favorite of all his movies!

Time for a thread hi-jack, and if ya'll will pardon me for name dropping...

Many years back, I lived in Utah, and I belonged to a home-school group. I was the director of the theater group..we were working on a play and a new family joined our group...

You guessed it Richard Dutcher's family.

CAn you imagine how intimidating that was? To direct a little home-school play when Richard Dutcher's kids are in it? Yikes. Fortunately for me, his wife was willing to help and she is also very talented. Good times home schooling!

that sounds like a blast. theatre and home-schooling and the dutchers.

i hope he and his family are all doing alright.

[MorningStar]

I don't know what really caused him to doubt, but God's Army made me feel very uncomfortable at one part, which made me question his motives in making these kinds of movies. Hopefully he'll come back.

[Wingnut]

Few on this list will argue that Dutcher did not make a bad decision in leaving the Church and the gospel. So we're all (or at least mostly) with you on that topic. But your original post gave the impression of calling Dutcher on the carpet for his decision, which seems neither helpful nor even appropriate. I suspect it was not the underlying feelings you expressed, with which most of us would agree, but the unfortunate way you expressed them that led to the negative reactions you read.

Seriously. You, me, MOE, and Eowyn all seem to agree on the same point in this thread. Has that ever happened?

I think planets are aligning somewhere and there are witnesses in Jerusalem.

[Magus]

@ MorningStar

what part?

on a side note, i never saw God's Army 2.

[Magus]

Seriously. You, me, MOE, and Eowyn all seem to agree on the same point in this thread. Has that ever happened?

I think planets are aligning somewhere and there are witnesses in Jerusalem.

yeah yeah, i know, i'm a big bad meanie.

[MorningStar]

@ MorningStar

what part?

on a side note, i never saw God's Army 2.

It's been a long time, but it had to do with the companion reading the anti-Mormon literature and leaving. It was a little too ...... Don't have the word for it at the moment.

My feeling was something like, "If I were an anti-Mormon wanting to make fun of Mormons' view of apostasy and hiding it, this is the scene I would write." I started to wonder if this was some guy who thought marketing to Mormons would be easy and could use it as a stepping stone to other things.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

yeah yeah, i know, i'm a big bad meanie.

No, you don't realize it yet...but bringing that group together makes you a Miracle Worker!!! LOL! (I'm teasing them more than you )

Just for the record, I loved ALL the Richard Dutcher movies...including Brigham City...great suspense and plot twist. States of Grace is my favorite though.

[Vort]

I don't know what really caused him to doubt, but God's Army made me feel very uncomfortable at one part, which made me question his motives in making these kinds of movies.

It was the toilet scene, wasn't it? Come on, admit it.

[Magus]

It's been a long time, but it had to do with the companion reading the anti-Mormon literature and leaving. It was a little too ...... Don't have the word for it at the moment.

My feeling was something like, "If I were an anti-Mormon wanting to make fun of Mormons' view of apostasy and hiding it, this is the scene I would write." I started to wonder if this was some guy who thought marketing to Mormons would be easy and could use it as a stepping stone to other things.

yeah, i can see what you mean.

in light of how things turned out with Dutcher, it's also a pretty interesting scene.

[pam]

It took one sentence to jar my testimony. One. (and no, it had nothing to do with church history, or anyone offending me, or anything like that). Five minutes beforehand I would have said I had a very steady, sure Testimony of the Gospel. That one sentence threw me into a hole of doubting that took me 2+ years to pull myself far enough out of to where I could confidently say I had a strong Testimony again. There was a significant period of time though where my leaving the Church was a very real possibility.

In my opinion I think it's a bit of a defense mechanism to try and define what someone's pre-doubting Testimony was like. It helps us feel more secure in our own sureness if we can convince ourselves that someone who has fallen away "never really believed in the first place". It lets us believe that it'll never happen to us, that our Testimonies are safe from the darts of the adversary.

Please don't misunderstand me. I know it happens. I know it happens to be people for good reason. I know everyone has different experiences and are at different levels when it comes to spirituality. I understand this. Nor am I condemning anyone that has gone through this.

All I was saying is I don't understand how it happens. It's just something that I personally can't relate to.

[Magus]

i'm wondering what the sentence was.

[prisonchaplain]

It's been a long time, but it had to do with the companion reading the anti-Mormon literature and leaving. It was a little too ...... Don't have the word for it at the moment.

My feeling was something like, "If I were an anti-Mormon wanting to make fun of Mormons' view of apostasy and hiding it, this is the scene I would write." I started to wonder if this was some guy who thought marketing to Mormons would be easy and could use it as a stepping stone to other things.

I remember finding that sub-story fascinating. It did seem quite edgy to me, and I was impressed that he included it. As to why, he wanted to keep the story real, rather than merely "faith-affirming." While it is not a wide-spread happening, surely there are missionaries that became troubled while on the mission field.

At the same time, the fact that many LDS were troubled by these kinds of subplots in his movies seems to have been a part of what troubled Dutcher. He States of Grace film was poorly received by the LDS community. Of course, many evangelicals were upset for the opposite reason--saying it was an LDS film posing as a generic Christian one.

Dutcher may have been troubled that his church could not embrace the kind of "authenticity" he believe he was presenting. This seed of "doubt" may have spurred his doubts.

[MorningStar]

I remember finding that sub-story fascinating. It did seem quite edgy to me, and I was impressed that he included it. As to why, he wanted to keep the story real, rather than merely "faith-affirming." While it is not a wide-spread happening, surely there are missionaries that became troubled while on the mission field.

At the same time, the fact that many LDS were troubled by these kinds of subplots in his movies seems to have been a part of what troubled Dutcher. He States of Grace film was poorly received by the LDS community. Of course, many evangelicals were upset for the opposite reason--saying it was an LDS film posing as a generic Christian one.

Dutcher may have been troubled that his church could not embrace the kind of "authenticity" he believe he was presenting. This seed of "doubt" may have spurred his doubts.

I'm not bothered if someone is portrayed as doubting, but it didn't seem authentic to me. Seemed like a caricature of someone who leaves the church.

[MorningStar]

It was the toilet scene, wasn't it? Come on, admit it.

Did they leave the toilet seat up?!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

surely there are missionaries that became troubled while on the mission field.

Yes. It happened to me...not as severe as in the movie, but it did rock my world temporarily. I have heard stories of other missionaries struggling the same way.

I agree with the rest of your post...that has been my thought as well.

[Traveler]

Within the last few years I have become involved as a consultant in the movie industry. Some observations that may or may not find place in this thread:

1. In general the movie industry is much more involved in illusion than with reality.

2. Having developed relationship with actors I am both amazed and troubled with their craft of acting and being able to suspend the essence of their self and take upon them another persona and project themselves into a character unlike their own. I am convinced this creates a kind of personal identity crises. It seems to me that the better the actor the less they are able to maintain a stable individual identity. Actors expend a great deal of effort “getting into character” and there are many long hours on set maintaining their pseudo character that I believe can easily lead to subtle self-insecurities.

3. The talent required to create a dramatic landscape in an environment foreign to the intricate sequence of the movie story is fascinating. Observing the creation of a seen is both interesting and disappointing. There is a talent I personally do not understand in being able to create the movie illusion. I believe there is an interesting craft of deception in being able to make something look to be very different from what is really going on. A director must mold many things that otherwise would never come together in order to have the desired effect. Even if the story is based on real events – recreating a believable reproduction is the very essence of deception. I find myself often watching a seen in a movie wondering how many takes it took to get it all together.

In short I believe that the movie industry by nature generates a kind of schizophrenic delusion in individuals in its best and brightest. Of course there are exceptions but in general when a seemingly talented individual of the movie industry has difficulty behaving what is rational to most of us as they navigate life without facades it is not a great surprise to me – It is, for the most part, what I have come to expect – not the exception.

The Traveler

[Guest Godless]

Maybe it had something to do with him on an emotional level deep down. There were other things probably going on in his family life that were causing discord. And maybe the Church wasn't filling his wants. Who knows.

I suspect very strongly that this was the case. Whatever happened when he was digging through Joseph Smith's history probably just strengthened a seed of doubt that was already there.. That one question, "What if none of this is true?" sounds like a question I once asked myself after 20 years of trying to build a testimony and failing.

I don't know what Dutcher's background is. Maybe he always had a weak testimony but did everything that he did out of love for the Mormon culture. Maybe he once had a strong testimony that deteriorated over time, culminating in that moment that completely redefined him. In any case, I wish him the best in his efforts to reshape his worldview. I know from firsthand experience how agonizing that can be.

[Anddenex]

President Monson's words in this talk should speak volumes:

Most of you were taught the truths of the gospel from the time you were a toddler. You were taught by loving parents and caring teachers. The truths they imparted to you helped you gain a testimony; you believed what you were taught. Although that testimony can continue to be fed spiritually and to grow as you study, as you pray for guidance, and as you attend your Church meetings each week, it is up to you to keep that testimony alive. Satan will try with all his might to destroy it. Throughout your entire life you will need to nurture it. As with the flame of a brightly burning fire, your testimony—if not continually fed—will fade to glowing embers and then cool completely. You must not let this happen. (emphasis added)

[Wingnut]

Did they leave the toilet seat up?!

Weird...I don't remember God's Army being a horror flick.

[Finrock]

Before I read this thread, had anyone asked me if I knew Richard Dutcher, I would have said, "No".

If I was full of charity, I'd feel great sorrow because Richard left the Church. I'm not full of charity and since he is a relative stranger to me, I'm just marginally sorrowful that he left.

To Magus:

Good morning Magus. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums! :)

I know everyone has already moved on, but, just for the record, I wasn't offended at your post. I didn't think your post was helpful to Richard Dutcher, but I didn't think you have a superiority complex. Neither do I think you had an attitude problem nor did I think that you thought that you were better than everone else.

I agree that the reasons that Richard Dutcher has provided for leaving the Church are lame.

Regards,

Finrock

[Guest loganman]

Magus you arrogant ***. You are the type that make Mormons look bad. Going through a faith crisis is terrifying. I look up to Richard for being honest with himself and others (unlike the church). You seem like the Provo type, I hope you stay there with the other self-righteous pyramid scheming, prozac taking, porn addicts.