The Family

[Finrock]

Prophets have warned us for years that "...the family is under attack throughout the world..." (Elder Nelson).

I ask myself, how is the family under attack?

One way the family is under attack, the Church states, is that "[g]ender differences increasingly are dismissed as trivial, irrelevant, or transient, thus undermining God’s purpose in creating both men and women" (Source).

The Church also states that allowing same-sex marriages "constitutes a serious threat to marriage and family" (Source).

To clarify: God has stated, through His prophets, that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to marriage and family.

I believe I am a faithful member of the Church and I believe when the Church and prophets of God say that allowing same-sex marriages is a serious threat to marriage and family, that they are speaking the will of God. Therefore, I believe that God is telling me that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to marriage and family. Because of my faith in God and my desires to obey God by following the counsel of His prophets, and because of my oaths, I feel compelled to oppose same-sex marriage in society.

QUESTION: When God has stated, through His prophets, that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to the institution of marriage and the institution of family, then how can I as a faithful member of the Church not oppose efforts to make same-sex marriage normal in society?

Respectfully,

Finrock

Edited March 15, 2013 by Finrock
EDITED SIGNIFICANTLY FOR CLARIFICATION!

[Irishcolleen]

You can preserve your own marriage or prepare for marriage if you are single. I don't know if you are a guy or gal, so the advice is generic. Love your wife as Christ loves the church. Honor your husband. Train your children firmly, yet without provoking the to wrath. Practice 1 Cor. 13. Don't divorce or accept divorce as a future option except in cases of abuse or adultery (although in some cases of adultery repentance and healing can occur). Teach your children what qualities to look for in a husband or wife. Mentor newly married men/women in how to have a happy marriage.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Irishcolleen

[rayhale]

If same-sex marriage is a threat to marriage and family, then why isn't the church fighting against marriages of convicted murders, rapists, child molesters, and other serious crimes? I think it mocks the whole point by saying that same-sex marriages are so bad yet these other groups are still able to marry. There’s another group that I have a hard time mentioning, the mentally disabled. There is an LDS couple, that I know of, who both are mentally disabled to the point where I question if they truly understand the concept of marriage since they have never been intimate with each other. Edited March 14, 2013 by rayhale

[Dravin]

If same-sex marriage is a threat to marriage and family, then why isn't the church fighting against marriages of convicted murders, rapists, child molesters, and other serious crimes?

Am I parsing you correctly? You interpret the Church's opposition to same-sex marriage to be because sinners, as one would presume a married homosexual couple to be engaging in sexual relations, are getting married?

[yjacket]

Prophets have warned us for years that "...the family is under attack throughout the world..." (Elder Nelson).

I ask myself, how is the family under attack?

One way the family is under attack, the Church states, is that "[g]ender differences increasingly are dismissed as trivial, irrelevant, or transient, thus undermining God’s purpose in creating both men and women" (Source).

The Church also states that allowing same-sex marriages "constitutes a serious threat to marriage and family" (Source).

God, through His prophets, has stated that allowing same-sex marriages "constitutes a serious threat to marriage and family".

QUESTION: As a faithful Latter-day Saint who desires to follow God and His prophets, how can I do anything besides oppose same-sex marriages within society?

Respectfully,

Finrock

I think it is actually relatively simple. The government should get out of the marriage business, as it was up until the relatively recent past. I include public schools in that too.

The battle should then be in the convincing of the hearts and minds of individuals that homosexual marriage is incorrect.

Personally for me, right now homosexual marriage does absolutely zip to destroy my marriage. If some homosexual couple moved in next door, I'd have a couple of options. 1) Use it as a learning lesson to my kids that it isn't right, God hates the sin but not the sinner. 2) Move.

Personally I think marriage is way more under attack from other forces besides homosexuality; it is one very small piece. Take a look at the marriage-relationship-advice forum . . . most marriages are under attack from other things. Finances, communication issues, law of chastity, selfishness, maturity, or any other number of vices. The fact that as a society we have "starter marriages", or a high proportion of people live together before marriage.

If one makes a claim that the "institution of marriage" is under attack by homosexual marriage, I'll probably agree to some extent, but I'd make the claim that the institution of marriage was under attack the minute the Government got involved and started determining what is & isn't marriage. And that happened in the US after polygamy was outlawed, so from that perspective the institution of marriage has been under attack for over 120 years. If the Government had never gotten involved in determining what constituted "proper" marriage, I'm pretty sure polygamy would have gone on quite a bit longer.

[skippy740]

If same-sex marriage is a threat to marriage and family, then why isn't the church fighting against marriages of convicted murders, rapists, child molesters, and other serious crimes? I think it mocks the whole point by saying that same-sex marriages are so bad yet these other groups are still able to marry. There’s another group that I have a hard time mentioning, the mentally disabled. There is an LDS couple, that I know of, who both are mentally disabled to the point where I question if they truly understand the concept of marriage since they have never been intimate with each other.

Let's keep this thread on topic on how to preserve and protect the family institution in general.

Part of it is marrying SMART and INTELLIGENTLY. That's part of parents EDUCATING their children and being a proper EXAMPLE to them.

As an example, this story is an example of choosing poorly: Woman in Argentina marries twin sister's convicted killer | Fox News

But these are individual cases and individual decisions.

We need to keep the thread on topic as to how we can help our community preserve and protect the family.

[skippy740]

I believe that our society is moving towards a "gotta have it now" attitude towards things, finances, and "the good life" - whatever that means.

That's not a good thing.

That means more work, less savings, more strife, more stress and a sense that you're "missing out on something" by choosing NOT to 'invest' in such expenses.

By my personal observation (both with myself and with my brother's marriages), it SEEMS that there is little knowledge of how to communicate effectively in marriage, managing expectations of spouses in a marriage and very few role models on how a functional marriage works.

[carlimac]

I think the OP's main question focuses on opposing gay marriage as a Latter Day Saint, not simply maintaining the family "in general". He asks pointedly "QUESTION: As a faithful Latter-day Saint who desires to follow God and His prophets, how can I do anything besides oppose same-sex marriages within society? "

I ask the same question. From a secular point of view I kind of go, "That's just strange but whatever floats your boat." I'm like a child that way because that's exactly what my kids say without having been prompted or "brainwashed". On the most basic of levels, it seems unnatural to them. It's on the same level of weirdness for me as a very old man marrying a very young woman or the other way round.

But from a spiritual and doctrinal level, I can't understand any member of the church supporting it. I don't completely believe in actively opposing it but I cannot in good faith support it.

Edited March 15, 2013 by carlimac

[annewandering]

This issue comes up a lot with my non lds friends. It is difficult to get into the reasons because they simply do not understand any eternal perspective for marriage. I tell some that I can not support something that will make them more unhappy in the eternal perspective. They are going to be able to get married because the social forces are very strongly supporting same sex marriage. My stand will not stop them but I want them to know its not from hate or dislike or bigotry that I oppose it but because I just see so much pain ahead for them eternally.

They potentially spend this life building a relationship that is very unlikely to carry over to the next stage of their life. Why should I encourage them to be in that situation?

They do not understand me but they do know I care about them. Anyway that is how I handle it.

[Finrock]

Good evening Irishcolleen. I hope you are doing good! :)

You can preserve your own marriage or prepare for marriage if you are single. I don't know if you are a guy or gal, so the advice is generic. Love your wife as Christ loves the church. Honor your husband. Train your children firmly, yet without provoking the to wrath. Practice 1 Cor. 13. Don't divorce or accept divorce as a future option except in cases of abuse or adultery (although in some cases of adultery repentance and healing can occur). Teach your children what qualities to look for in a husband or wife. Mentor newly married men/women in how to have a happy marriage.

I recognize that there are many threats to marriage and the ideas you have given are all very good ideas. Thank you for sharing them.

My question was intended to be more specific as it pertains to the threat of allowing same-sex marriage. I should have made my question more clear. I can see how my question is ambiguous. I'll see if I can edit it later for clarity.

To clarify: God has stated, through His prophets, that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to marriage and family.

I believe I am a faithful member of the Church and I believe when the Church and prophets of God say that allowing same-sex marriages is a serious threat to marriage and family, that they are speaking the will of God. Therefore, I believe that God is telling me that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to marriage and family. Because of my faith in God and my desires to obey God by following the counsel of His prophets, and because of my oaths, I feel compelled to oppose same-sex marriage in society.

My question, then, is: When God has stated, through His prophets, that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to the institution of marriage and the institution of family, then how can I as a faithful member of the Church not oppose efforts to make same-sex marriage normal in society?

Respectfully,

Finrock

[BadWolf]

:(QUESTION: As a faithful Latter-day Saint who desires to follow God and His prophets, how can I do anything besides oppose same-sex marriages within society?

____________

As a faithful Latter Day Saint I HAVE to support same sex marriage.

- Separation of church & state

- Seperate but not equal ... Does not work

Enacting MY rigorous beliefs into law is as repugnant to me, as enacting any other faith's beliefs into law. I firmly and strongly believe that our government should be kept a secular authority. As such, I believe that there should be 1 law for 1 people. All consenting adults allowed to legally marry whomsoever they choose, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex, socioeconomic status, genetic conditions, etc. Discriminating against ANY group (born or self selecting) from entering into a mutually agreed upon legal contract? Not only, no, but heck NO! The laws that apply to one should apply to all. Human rights are non-negotiable.

Similarly, all faiths should (and are) allowed to marry (or seal) according to their own doctrines, mores, & precepts. If THEY want to define marriage, and to outline who shall or shall not be allowed to marry within their faith, great! That's their right. I hold this close to my heart, as the absolute need for the Stare to be a secular governing authority with 1 law for all.

My church may refuse to marry anyone it chooses...

But my government better not!

BW

[pam]

:(QUESTION

As a faithful Latter Day Saint I HAVE to support same sex marriage.

So are you saying that those Latter-day Saints who do NOT support same sex marriage are not faithful?

[MarginOfError]

Separation of church and state is not really a Mormon concept.

Freedom of religion, on the other hand, is a concept Mormonism recognizes. But this doesn't necessarily lead to support for same sex marriage. There are plenty of ways with LDS statements to support either side of this issue, and it really comes down to which elements you feel strongest about (for instance, do you feel stronger about voting against same sex marriage based on the 13th Article of Faith and the Family Proclamation, or do you feel stronger about voting for it based on the 11th Article of Faith)

For me, I don't feel right about voting for same sex marriage. At the same time, I don't feel right about voting against it. I've never been in a position where I needed to cast a vote, but if/when the time arises, I expect that I will abstain from voting.

In practical terms, when the gay couple moves in next door, they'll receive my full support. I may not believe their marriage is approved of God, but to them it is real and heartfelt and I don't want to see anyone, gay or straight, go through the hell that failed marriages create.

[rayhale]

Am I parsing you correctly? You interpret the Church's opposition to same-sex marriage to be because sinners, as one would presume a married homosexual couple to be engaging in sexual relations, are getting married?

I do not, and will not, say one of the reasons why I don’t support gay marriage because it’s a threat to marriage. It’s a slap on the face of gays to say that convicted murders, rapists, and child molesters can marry, but it’s not a considered a threat to marriage, but somehow, gay marriage is a threat. It’s not about sin; I just think it’s hypocritical.

[Finrock]

Good morning rayhale! I hope you are doing well. :)

I do not, and will not, say one of the reasons why I don’t support gay marriage because it’s a threat to marriage. It’s a slap on the face of gays to say that convicted murders, rapists, and child molesters can marry, but it’s not a considered a threat to marriage, but somehow, gay marriage is a threat. It’s not about sin; I just think it’s hypocritical.

God has said that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to the institution of marriage and the institution of family. It seems to me that in order for me to accept your philosophy, I would need to reject what God has said to me through the words of His prophets. I am unwilling to do that.

Regards,

Finrock

[rayhale]

On the new LDS site mormonsandgays.org states:

“The Church’s approach to this [same-sex marriage] stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing—and what needs to change—is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere.”

By saying that gays are somehow worse than murderers and rapists is not very sensitive to them. Also during the California Prop 8 there were some things said both within and outside of the Church, that I strongly disagree with. The mormonandgays.org site is an overdue response to what happened during the Prop 8 battle. Basically the site points out that we don’t hate gays, we are now realizing that having same-sex attraction is NOT a sin, what is the sin is when the attraction is acted on.

[Anddenex]

By saying that gays are somehow worse than murderers and rapists is not very sensitive to them. Also during the California Prop 8 there were some things said both within and outside of the Church, that I strongly disagree with. The mormonandgays.org site is an overdue response to what happened during the Prop 8 battle. Basically the site points out that we don’t hate gays, we are now realizing that having same-sex attraction is NOT a sin, what is the sin is when the attraction is acted on.

Nothing new here, this information has always been reported by the Church for a long time now.

What you say is overdue, has already been stated more than once. I read a talk 13 years or so ago from Elder Oaks, if I am remembering correctly, mentioning same-sex attraction is NOT a sin.

No one says gays are worse than murderers and rapists, this is your personal twist in this scenario. This is your personal interpretation. Don't place your personal interpretation on the Church.

[estradling75]

By saying that gays are somehow worse than murderers and rapists is not very sensitive to them. Also during the California Prop 8 there were some things said both within and outside of the Church, that I strongly disagree with. The mormonandgays.org site is an overdue response to what happened during the Prop 8 battle. Basically the site points out that we don’t hate gays, we are now realizing that having same-sex attraction is NOT a sin, what is the sin is when the attraction is acted on.

Only you are saying that gays are worse then murderers and rapists. The Church is saying that acting on a Same Sex Attraction is a Sin and that for the good of Society it should not be allowed much less given marriage status. Just like it says that Murdering and Raping is a Sin and acting on such temptations should also not be allowed for the good of Society.

However just because they are all sins doesn't mean they should all have exactly the same restriction. Common sense tells us that we should not be enabling their sins or giving the acting on such desires culturally acceptable status. And that differs quiet greatly from sin to sin

[Finrock]

Hi rayhale! :)

On the new LDS site mormonsandgays.org states:

“The Church’s approach to this [same-sex marriage] stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing—and what needs to change—is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere.”

By saying that gays are somehow worse than murderers and rapists is not very sensitive to them. Also during the California Prop 8 there were some things said both within and outside of the Church, that I strongly disagree with. The mormonandgays.org site is an overdue response to what happened during the Prop 8 battle. Basically the site points out that we don’t hate gays, we are now realizing that having same-sex attraction is NOT a sin, what is the sin is when the attraction is acted on.

I appreciate your willingness to participate in this thread, but your posts are speaking to something that I am not.

I am not saying that gays are worse than murderers. I don't even understand why you are posting the things that you are because I haven't even made any claims like what you are posting. You are talking about something different than what I am talking about.

This is what I'm talking about:

God has said that allowing same-sex marriage is a serious threat to the institution of marriage and to the institution of family. My question is, as a faithful member of the Church, how can I not oppose same-sex marriage in society when God is telling me that same-sex marriage is a serious threat to marriage and family?

Regards,

Finrock

[Dravin]

I do not, and will not, say one of the reasons why I don’t support gay marriage because it’s a threat to marriage. It’s a slap on the face of gays to say that convicted murders, rapists, and child molesters can marry, but it’s not a considered a threat to marriage, but somehow, gay marriage is a threat. It’s not about sin; I just think it’s hypocritical.

I'm not entirely sure but it does look like I've parsed you correctly. You seem to be chalking up opposition to same-sex marriage to be based on the idea of sinners getting married. It's the only parsing that makes your mention of murders, rapists, and child molesters relevant. In other words, "These other sinners are allowed to get married too, why focus on same-sex marriage?"

Edited March 15, 2013 by Dravin

[MarginOfError]

I think I know where his line of logic is coming from.

Do you remember this?

http://rumorfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/kim-kardashian.jpg

Essentially, the logic is that if gay marriage devalues marriage, why doesn't marriage to criminals, abusers etc.

The correct answer, I think, is people who abuse their spouses and families DO devalue marriage. But you can't exactly identify the abusers ahead of time. I have to say, if people declared there intent to abuse their spouse ahead of time, I'd have no problem with preventing the marriage.

So if you feel that gay marriage is wrong, and people have to proactively declare their sexual orientation before getting married, then it isn't nearly as hard to identify the gay marriages as it is to identify the abusive marriages. that's kind of where the logic falls apart. As far as reasons for supporting same sex marriage, I don't think this hold water very well. But this has never been a logical issue for most people.

[Anddenex]

:(QUESTION: As a faithful Latter-day Saint who desires to follow God and His prophets, how can I do anything besides oppose same-sex marriages within society?

____________

As a faithful Latter Day Saint I HAVE to support same sex marriage.

Should this be a surprise recognizing the individual who shares this has the word "Bad" as part of their username??

Also, since dogs evolved from wolves, is it appropriate to say "Bad...Dog"?

If anyone is not able to tell, I am jesting with BadWolf.

[MarginOfError]

Should this be a surprise recognizing the individual who shares this has the word "Bad" as part of their username??

Also, since dogs evolved from wolves, is it appropriate to say "Bad...Dog"?

If anyone is not able to tell, I am jesting with BadWolf.

You don't watch much Dr. Who, do you?

[Anddenex]

You don't watch much Dr. Who, do you?

Hehe...One of my favorite shows, since I used to watch episodes with my father back when I was 6 years old.

[MarginOfError]

Hehe...One of my favorite shows, since I used to watch episodes with my father back when I was 6 years old.

There may be hope for you yet.