Are we alone?

[Traveler]

As far as we know (from science or even religion?) this earth is the only place in the universe where mortal creatures and things can and do live.

So - what are some thoughts???

Will mankind ever discover mortal life anywhere else?

Are there immortal beings living somewhere in this universe? Could they be close by? What evidence would or could we encounter?

Did death ever exist before Adam & Eve - think Dinosaurs? if so what was the divine purpose (or why) of such things and their death?

Is it heresy to ask such questions?

The Traveler

[ZionsRodeVos]

I've wondered about some of these questions.

From what I understand there are other worlds with other mortals who look just like us. However, it is my opinion that God does not ever intend us to meet any of them while we are mortal so no matter how good our space ships become we will never be able to use them to get to another planet with mortal life on it. I think it also likely we will never find positive proof of life anywhere else.

I don't know why I feel like this because I would love to be able to get in a space ship like Star Trek and go to other planets with life on them.

I haven't thought too much about the dinosaurs but remember something I think someone told me which was likely speculation that the dinosaur bones were simply some of the material available and used when the earth was created. I am more inclined to think they did exist and died for some unknown reason after Adam and Eve left the garden of eden.

[Anddenex]

Is it heresy to ask such questions?

Nope, without proper questions we are unable to obtain the truth of any doctrine. I like what I once heard that learning is not in asking questions but in asking the right questions.

As far as we know (from science or even religion?) this earth is the only place in the universe where mortal creatures and things can and do live.

No. Specifically the temple suggest otherwise. Our Father in heaven created many worlds, worlds without number, and I would think it to be odd that there isn't any other earths.

Will mankind ever discover mortal life anywhere else?

This is contingent upon the Second Coming of the Lord. If we are in the final hour, the 11th hour, I would say we are not far enough advanced before the Lord comes to begin to stretch beyond the known galaxies and discover life. BUT, you never know.

Are there immortal beings living somewhere in this universe? Could they be close by? What evidence would or could we encounter?

Yes. We already have been visited by resurrected immortal beings? Or did you mean mortal beings?

Could they be close by? Depends what level of intelligence they have obtained. Michio discusses 3 different types of populations/societies, and if they have advanced far enough why not.

None. No evidence that mortal beings live anywhere besides earth, except the understanding given in the temple and that the Lord created worlds without numbers.

Did death ever exist before Adam & Eve - think Dinosaurs? if so what was the divine purpose (or why) of such things and their death?

Highly dependent upon a person's interpretation of Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden. Scripture specifies Adam as first flesh and first man.

We are informed that death did not enter into the world without the partaking of the fruit, however was this solely the death of man and woman?

[mikbone]

Many may have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fulness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fulness as those who are resurrected from the dead. (Joseph Smith, Jr. "History of Joseph Smith," Deseret News, Vol. V, No. 11; quoted in John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, p.72-75)

Moses 1:35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

There are many more scriptures and quotes that are similar to the above. But these should suffice.

And from a scientific standpoint

Drake equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited April 12, 2013 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

As far as we know (from science or even religion?) this earth is the only place in the universe where mortal creatures and things can and do live.

So - what are some thoughts???

Will mankind ever discover mortal life anywhere else?

Are there immortal beings living somewhere in this universe? Could they be close by? What evidence would or could we encounter?

Did death ever exist before Adam & Eve - think Dinosaurs? if so what was the divine purpose (or why) of such things and their death?

Is it heresy to ask such questions?

The Traveler

Some thoughts about the death question; There may be a difference between what is commonly called death and the reference to death in the scriptures and when discussing the change with Adam and Eve. From a religious perspective, death is defined as the separation of the spirit from the body (at least physical death). But to have the opportunity for physical death there must be those two parts, the body and the spirit. God created the body before the spirit was placed into it. If we take that literally then there is a time in which there is a body without a spirit. If a body exists without a spirit then there cannot be death (physical) just in terms of separation of spirit from the body after it has been united, as it was never united with a spirit. This is not revealed fully but we tend to believe, for example, that there is a time when a fetus does not quite have the spirit attached to it. The time in which the spirit joins the body may be at the point of the quickening. If this point is after conception then there is a time where there is a human body without a spirit. If the pregnancy is aborted before the quickening, do we call that death? How is it death without the quickening or the attachment of a spirit?

One might say, 'well, the body isn't fully developed to that point, so it is not really a person' - exactly! that is my point. There was no "man" before Adam.

So, I guess, the underlying question is whether organic material organized into a creature, dinosaurs for example could exist without an associated individual intelligence or spirit. Then if that creature without a spirit dies, it is not "death" as in separation of spirit from body.

If Adam was the first creature to receive an intelligence then there could not be death before him, although it might be possible that organic entities came and went before that did not have spirits.

My sister underwent in vitro fertilization. There were many eggs collected and fertilized but not all were used. Some, after a few days, don't live and some are not used. Do we consider those fertilized eggs individuals? They were "living" separately from her body at least for a few days. And did they "die"? Or did the organic material "die" without ever having a spirit attached to it?

A thought to ponder - apply the "in vitro" scenario to the "prior to man" state of the Earth but on a grander scale than a test tube. (these are just thoughts that I think are related to the pondering questions you bring up - not beliefs)

Edited April 12, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[mnn727]

Science postulates Billions of Earth like planets in the Universe.

The LDS religion recognizes many words innumerable to measure.

It would be really silly with the sheer number of stars in the Universe to think we are alone.

Now at what state of civilization are they, and will Warp Drive ever be available? Who knows.

Its only been the last 50-60 years that we have been able to listen to the stars (radio telescopy, SETI project, etc) so if our neighbors are not advanced at least as far as we are, or their science did not follow ours, we'd never know they were there, not to mention speed of light limitations (or speed of sound) would make conversations nearly impossible.

[Vort]

Science postulates Billions of Earth like planets in the Universe.

The LDS religion recognizes many words innumerable to measure.

The difference is that Science has not the slightest idea what it's talking about in this. It's all random guesswork. The Drake Equation is often cited as authority behind such "scientific" claims, but of course that's sheer nonsense, since many of the variables are utterly unknown -- hence its being embraced by such lunatic fringe groups as SETI.

[pam]

My personal opinion is that we are definitely not alone. I believe there are other words and other civilizations.

[talisyn]

I was about 11 or 12 when I first contemplated this kind of stuff. I stopped my serious contemplating of questions like 'If there are other worlds, and we are to be concerned with just this one, then do all other worlds have their own Redeemer? Is Christ the only one? If He is the only one, then wow this Earth must be incredibly wonderful and wicked for such a thing to happen here! But if He is the only one then how do those other worlds get knowledge of Him?' for a while so never got a good answer. Darn you, puberty.

[Traveler]

There have been some very interesting responses. Mostly LDS but then this is an LDS forum. When we consider, for example, that Adam was the first man - how definitive is it that Adam was the "first" man. Was he the first man on this earth or was the the first man in all of our universe?

The scriptures say that G-d has many worlds - but is such revelation talking about worlds populated by what we could recognize as "mankind"? And are such worlds found in this galaxy and universe. Is it possible that this universe was created only for mortal beings? And that we are the only advanced human world with man?

When Adam fell - was only the earth changed or was the entire universe? We have found remains of creatures that lived many hundreds of millions or years before we believe Adam to have fallen - and their remains testify of death - but more than death but of an existence of great violence and struggle of life? Hardly a garden of Eden? Is it possible that the story of Adam and Eve is far more symbolic and of things that do not really pertain to this universe? or even to our Earth as we know it?

Is it possible that mortal man is only a shadow of what man really is and that man - beyond the shadows we know is plentiful in our universe - and even in our solar system? We are told that not only is earth visited by G-d and his angles but that Satan and his angles are also here and active? But do we only experience such things indirectly like sub atomic particles in a bubble chamber? or not at all?

And what does it matter if such beings exist or not if we cannot distinguish any thing that they actually do?

Does thinking of such things draw you closer to G-d or does such thought push us from G-d - in your opinion?

The Traveler

[SanctitasDeo]

I was about 11 or 12 when I first contemplated this kind of stuff. I stopped my serious contemplating of questions like 'If there are other worlds, and we are to be concerned with just this one, then do all other worlds have their own Redeemer? Is Christ the only one? If He is the only one, then wow this Earth must be incredibly wonderful and wicked for such a thing to happen here! But if He is the only one then how do those other worlds get knowledge of Him?' for a while so never got a good answer. Darn you, puberty.

That is some serious Other Sheep.

[Blackmarch]

As far as we know (from science or even religion?) this earth is the only place in the universe where mortal creatures and things can and do live.

So - what are some thoughts???

Will mankind ever discover mortal life anywhere else?

yes supposing we don't nuke ourselves back to the stone age.

Are there immortal beings living somewhere in this universe? Could they be close by? What evidence would or could we encounter?

I'm assuming that you're asking outside the realm of revelation? I would assume so, supposing that evolution and/or progression does occur. I do not know currently what sort of evidence we would need to be able to identify something as immortal.

Did death ever exist before Adam & Eve - think Dinosaurs? if so what was the divine purpose (or why) of such things and their death?

did death exist before A&E? yes. did it exist on the earth before them? no idea (mainly due to a lot of unknown variables).

Is it heresy to ask such questions?

maybe during medieval ages. the problem we face today many times is we tend to focus just on one thing out of our might, mind, and heart.. and tend to ignore the other 2. we need to use all three.

The Traveler

I find about .1% of UFO reports extremely tantalizing.

[bytebear]

There's a whole lotta stars out there. I can't imagine we are alone in the universe. One pebble of sand with life? Nope. The universe is full of life.

[mikbone]

From Carl Sagan's Contact

Young Ellie: Dad, do you think there's people on other planets?

Ted Arroway: I don't know, Sparks. But I guess I'd say if it is just us... seems like an awful waste of space.

[Seminarysnoozer]

From Carl Sagan's Contact

Young Ellie: Dad, do you think there's people on other planets?

Ted Arroway: I don't know, Sparks. But I guess I'd say if it is just us... seems like an awful waste of space.

To call it a waste implies purpose. To suggest purpose gives suggestion to a higher purpose, i.e. - a belief in God. Of course, if there is no higher purpose to life then it is not a waste. Good to hear Carl really believed in God (as we all did before coming here). I think the inquiry about life out there in space somewhere already is a piece of the light of Christ shinning through as it reflects one's spirit's knowledge that this life goes beyond what is here.

[mikbone]

To call it a waste implies purpose. To suggest purpose gives suggestion to a higher purpose, i.e. - a belief in God. Of course, if there is no higher purpose to life then it is not a waste. Good to hear Carl really believed in God (as we all did before coming here). I think the inquiry about life out there in space somewhere already is a piece of the light of Christ shinning through as it reflects one's spirit's knowledge that this life goes beyond what is here.

Carl Sagan considered himself an agnostic.

[Vort]

did death exist before A&E? yes.

But a really good film version of P&P did not exist before A&E (and BBC).

[Traveler]

One point I wanted to make is that we have no idea what immortal life is like or what kind of foot print such life leaves. For example as much as many claim to have a personal relationship with an immortal being (G-d) they are unable to show any kind of "foot print" for such a being or the society in which he prospers - so there is no definitive empirical indication that there is such a being or society. It is a matter of faith - which confuses me concerning "personal" interactions.

As far as mortal life - we have found no trace beyond our little planet. Any civilization as advanced as ours would leave behind detectable ripples. The most abundant utilization of energy in the universe is nuclear fusion that when controlled leaves very distinguishable ripples across space. But we have not found any indication of such a civilization not only in our own galaxy but anywhere. Nor have we found any utilizing of electrical magnetic radiation (radio, TV, cell phones and the likes) anywhere. As far as we know - if there is life there is nothing anywhere like mortal man here on earth. And here on earth if we compare time to distance for miles and miles of life that time we see mortal civilized man's foot print here - there is only a few feet and modern man with radio and such - less than 2 inches.

Even if we are not alone - we might as well be. We cannot find any indication of anybody else that is mortal. And as for as immortal beings - there is nothing but faith and there is little or no consistency through what history we have that there is anything like our modern faith. Even if we are not alone - it sure feels like it.

The Traveler

Edited April 17, 2013 by Traveler

[ElectofGod]

did death exist before A&E? yes.

I think death did not occur before A&E. According to the early brethren of the church this planet was created in the heavens next to Kolob in the celestial heavens. (Though some think it was a terrestial earth) When adam and eve partook of the fruit, their bodies (veins) turned into blood thus becoming corruptible. Along with this the earth fell from heaven (along with lucifer) and came to where it is now in the Universe. They lost their pre-mortal knowledge because they lost the presence of God (fullness of the light of Christ which is truth). My favorite question is what if Adam and Eve did not take of the fruit what would happen? Would life still exist? I say yes (just not as it exists in this telestial world) but won't speculate on that at the moment.

The book of mormon mentions this with the terms, "the earth was unwrapped as a scroll" (paraphrasing). Now the dinosaur issue is completely different. Perhaps the earth was matter which was taken from another creation or there was dinosaurs when it was in heaven lol?

I also know the early brethern has said things like there is life on each planet including our moon (Brigham young liked to speculate about that a lot) Perhaps they are just spiritual worlds instead of physical?

also I believe this is the only telestial world out of all of the creations in the universe under Christ. God may have others but Christ himself says he came to this earth because it was the most wicked (telestial) so there exists terrestial worlds just not telestial. We need more spiritual eyes to see them. Joseph Smith was known of giving a blessing stating a few worlds where he was to minister to when he passed on.

The parable of the 12 planets in d&c 88 if I remember right relates to this. Or 84?

Edited April 17, 2013 by ElectofGod

[mikbone]

As far as mortal life - we have found no trace beyond our little planet. Any civilization as advanced as ours would leave behind detectable ripples. The most abundant utilization of energy in the universe is nuclear fusion that when controlled leaves very distinguishable ripples across space. But we have not found any indication of such a civilization not only in our own galaxy but anywhere. Nor have we found any utilizing of electrical magnetic radiation (radio, TV, cell phones and the likes) anywhere. As far as we know - if there is life there is nothing anywhere like mortal man here on earth. And here on earth if we compare time to distance for miles and miles of life that time we see mortal civilized man's foot print here - there is only a few feet and modern man with radio and such - less than 2 inches.

It is entirely possible that there are other mortal planets with humans within and outside of our galaxy.

The vastness of space is incomprehensible. Our Milky-Way Galaxy is 100,000 or so light years in diameter. Our nearest neighbor star is Proxima Centari over 4 light years away. And our nearest neighbor galaxy Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away.

Earthlings have only started sending radio waves into space within the last century. Thus, it will take our signals 100,000 years to cross through our spiral galaxy. (I hope the 2nd coming will have transpired before that time).

It is entirely possible that God populated multiple solar systems equally scattered throuhout our galaxy at the same time. If He were to maintain the time between the discovery of radio transmission and the second coming within a 500 year time period, then He could easily have populated just over 30,000 Earths with no possibility of us ever receiving each others radio waves.

[Dravin]

It is entirely possible that there are other mortal planets with humans within and outside of our galaxy.

The vastness of space is incomprehensible. Our Milky-Way Galaxy is 100,000 or so light years in diameter. Our nearest neighbor star is Proxima Centari over 4 light years away. And our nearest neighbor galaxy Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away.

Earthlings have only started sending radio waves into space within the last century. Thus, it will take our signals 100,000 years to cross through our spiral galaxy. (I hope the 2nd coming will have transpired before that time).

It is entirely possible that God populated multiple solar systems equally scattered throuhout our galaxy at the same time. If He were to maintain the time between the discovery of radio transmission and the second coming within a 500 year time period, then He could easily have populated just over 30,000 Earths with no possibility of us ever receiving each others radio waves.

Another thing to consider is that if communication switches over to 'quieter' technologies you end up with a really short window for prime detection. Switching from powerful ground based transmitters to lower powered directional satellites and digital instead of analogue signals reduces the 'noise' footprint. It's the radio equivalent, if you'll forgive the analogy, of switching from signal flares to directional light signaling.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Carl Sagan considered himself an agnostic.

I know. That is why I was pointing out that flaw in his choice of words. Do you think he is still agnostic?

[Traveler]

It is entirely possible that there are other mortal planets with humans within and outside of our galaxy.

The vastness of space is incomprehensible. Our Milky-Way Galaxy is 100,000 or so light years in diameter. Our nearest neighbor star is Proxima Centari over 4 light years away. And our nearest neighbor galaxy Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away.

Earthlings have only started sending radio waves into space within the last century. Thus, it will take our signals 100,000 years to cross through our spiral galaxy. (I hope the 2nd coming will have transpired before that time).

It is entirely possible that God populated multiple solar systems equally scattered throuhout our galaxy at the same time. If He were to maintain the time between the discovery of radio transmission and the second coming within a 500 year time period, then He could easily have populated just over 30,000 Earths with no possibility of us ever receiving each others radio waves.

Of course this is all speculation. As we look to the heavens we are discovering so many things that were previously unknown. We are indeed charting new territory. One interesting aspect is that it seems that since I was studying Physics in college that it was believed that sustained nuclear fusion was only 10 to 20 years away. Today even the most brilliant minds concede that we have no path to developing that technology - in essence making no actual progress other than we now know what does not work

One of the current methods of determining a star system with planets is the slight dimming or interference in star transmission. This happens when an orbiting planet passes between us and the star. But something else happens when this occurs. Stars generate a vast spectrum of electrical magmatic activity. Not just the light we see but also vast amounts of charged particles (mostly free electrons) from nuclear reactions. If a developed planet similar to ours were to cross between us and a distant star there would be with the noise of the star a finger print of the planet's nuclear and electrical technologies.

If we consider evolution as a factor then the interior of our galaxies ought to be much more evolved that the outer reaches where we survive. But however we consider such things - there is no sign of even a single civilization 100,000 or so years a head of us. There is no simple conclusion to the statistical possibilities that if life exist as we know it on earth even if sparsely existent in our universe - that we should have discovered something. A fact no one seem to have any explanation of why.

The Traveler

[mikbone]

If we consider evolution as a factor then the interior of our galaxies ought to be much more evolved that the outer reaches where we survive. But however we consider such things - there is no sign of even a single civilization 100,000 or so years a head of us. There is no simple conclusion to the statistical possibilities that if life exist as we know it on earth even if sparsely existent in our universe - that we should have discovered something. A fact no one seem to have any explanation of why.

Like Carl Sagan I believe in Occam's razor. But I have a different intrepretation of it.

It seems to me that belief in a Creator with design and intent to bing to pass the immortality of man, would require far fewer assumptions than that of evolution as currently taught by our department of education.

If I were God which I am not. I would take a galaxy and populate multiple planets at the same time to test my spirit children with mortality concurrently.

This would explain why Enoch and his city are currently ministering translated angels to different planets.

Many may have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fulness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fulness as those who are resurrected from the dead. (Joseph Smith, Jr. "History of Joseph Smith," Deseret News, Vol. V, No. 11; quoted in John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, p.72-75)

[mikbone]

I know. That is why I was pointing out that flaw in his choice of words. Do you think he is still agnostic?

How is it a flaw in his choice of words? It would be perfectly rational for an agnostic physicist to make the statement that he did...

I have no idea if Sagan has converted or not... Agnostics tend to be stubborn.