Christ wasn't perfect?

[Windseeker]

The Book of Mormon Online

Look under the definition for Old Things Are Done Away. That is what Joseph F Smith said about Christ being perfect. Its all about how we define it.

EDIT: wrong cross link. That one only talks about being perfect, the one below is JFS.

The Book of Mormon Online

I thought this was excellent as well.

“We are never justified in lowering the lofty standard held out to followers of the Christ. Nor are our actions or attitudes approved of God if we suggest that the Savior did not mean what he said when he called us to the transcendent level of perfection.

Our task is not to water down the ideal, nor to dilute the directive. Rather, we must view our challenge with perspective, must see things as they really are, but also as they really can be.”

[applepansy]

I just found something else on this topic:

"“Nearly two thousand years ago a perfect Man walked the earth—Jesus the Christ. … " =Howard W. Hunter, Conference Talk April 1994 ... where he quoted Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988, p. 8

Why can't I find these things "in the moment"?

[Anddenex]

Why can't I find these things "in the moment"?

I blame Murphy's Law.

[mikbone]

Chapter 7: Faithfulness in Times of Trial: “From the Shadows into the Glorious Sunshine”

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow

Some of our brethren have queried whether hereafter, they could feel themselves worthy of full fellowship with Prophets and Saints of old, who endured trials and persecutions; and with Saints … who suffered in Kirtland, in Missouri and Illinois. The brethren referred to have expressed regrets that they had not been associated in those scenes of suffering. If any of these are present, I will say, for the consolation of such, you have to wait but a short time and you will have similar opportunities, to your heart’s content. You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]. In His prayer and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, He foreshadowed the purifying process necessary in the lives of those whose ambition prompts them to secure the glory of a celestial kingdom. None should try to escape by resorting to any compromising measures. (Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Feb. 9, 1886, p.1)

Take it individually or take it collectively, we have suffered and we shall have to suffer again, and why? Because the Lord requires it at our hands for our sanctification. (Deseret News, Oct. 28, 1857, p.270)

[Anddenex]

Thanks mikbone for letting me know my life is only going to get harder...what an uplift.

Please don't share that quote with my wife. It would be better that it is a "Surprise honey, have a cup of more suffering please. We can drink it together."

[applepansy]

Chapter 7: Faithfulness in Times of Trial: “From the Shadows into the Glorious Sunshine”

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow

Some of our brethren have queried whether hereafter, they could feel themselves worthy of full fellowship with Prophets and Saints of old, who endured trials and persecutions; and with Saints … who suffered in Kirtland, in Missouri and Illinois. The brethren referred to have expressed regrets that they had not been associated in those scenes of suffering. If any of these are present, I will say, for the consolation of such, you have to wait but a short time and you will have similar opportunities, to your heart’s content. You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]. In His prayer and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, He foreshadowed the purifying process necessary in the lives of those whose ambition prompts them to secure the glory of a celestial kingdom. None should try to escape by resorting to any compromising measures. (Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Feb. 9, 1886, p.1)

Take it individually or take it collectively, we have suffered and we shall have to suffer again, and why? Because the Lord requires it at our hands for our sanctification. (Deseret News, Oct. 28, 1857, p.270)

I agree that through suffering and sacrifice we are made "perfect." Even as Jesus was made perfect.

I still don't see anything here that says Jesus wasn't perfect in this life. Perfected? No he wasn't perfected. But he was perfect. I'm finding too many references and quotes from Prophets to think otherwise.

[ElectofGod]

I still don't see anything here that says Jesus wasn't perfect in this life. Perfected? No he wasn't perfected. But he was perfect. I'm finding too many references and quotes from Prophets to think otherwise.

Thats because he was perfect :). Yes he may not have completed his perfection but he did live a sinless life. Does not mean he was the perfect carpenter with every house at the perfect angle.

Suffering is a Celestial principle. Without it we cannot become Celestial and without it we would not learn to love the way we are supposed to. Rips the heart right open and gives us an understanding for others.

[MarginOfError]

Going back to the debate about what "perfect" means, think of it this way:

Christ may very well have been raised as a carpenter. Do you think that he ever cut a piece of wood too short? Or that his chisel went a little errant when finishing the trim? Does making such a mistake make him imperfect? (I'll also add that I think anyone who thinks Christ never made such a mistake because he was so perfect is nuts).

We all make mistakes, and I believe Christ was no different in making such mistakes. What may have made him different was his reaction to such mistakes. He may have understood his limitations and been more patient with those limitations than we are.

However, I do believe he was sinless, in the sense that he never purposefully and knowingly acted against the will of God. That's really the only kind of perfection that matters to me.

[applepansy]

I guess I'm nuts.

I can't find anything, anywhere that says Jesus made mistakes. All I can find is that He was perfect.

[MarginOfError]

I guess I'm nuts.

I can't find anything, anywhere that says Jesus made mistakes. All I can find is that He was perfect.

Yep! You're nuts!

Can we change your name to applenuts?

[ElectofGod]

I guess I'm nuts.

I can't find anything, anywhere that says Jesus made mistakes. All I can find is that He was perfect.

Go search the scriptures what perfect really means. Than you will see what how Christ was perfect and how he wasn't.

Christ was born only by one mortal...

Thus he was infinite and eternal... He was not a man. A man is not infinite and eternal.

None of us are born that way.

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is ajust, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the claw of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

Edited April 22, 2013 by ElectofGod

[jerome1232]

I guess I'm nuts.

I can't find anything, anywhere that says Jesus made mistakes. All I can find is that He was perfect.

If it makes you feel any better, I think your nuts too!

Honestly, I just don't think that's what perfect means in this context, I believe he was perfect in that he didn't sin. To think that his toast came out golden brown every time is odd to me and not required for him to be our saviour.

[ElectofGod]

Can we say we live a perfect life after we apply the atonement in our life? Assume we made it to the Celestial kingdom. Would we not therefore be perfect? "would we have lived a perfect life"?

These are just questions I just thought of.

Thus perfection comes from the ability to live the LAW (ordinances) that is given us at that time. Than we become perfect in that sphere.

[Gwen]

When my kids learned new things (especially potty training) that would frustrate them I would remind them that even Jesus pooped his pants and had to potty train. I'm sure he fell as he learned to walk and his mom probably smacked his hand for trying to touch a hot pot. He had to learn a physical body like the rest of us. Does that mean I'm teaching my kids that Jesus wasn't perfect? I don't think so and I would never use those words. I don't see my kids as imperfect because they have to learn a physical body, that's why we came here after all.

I've always found the story of when Christ was 12 and teaching in the temple interesting. It brings me comfort that if someone good enough to be the mother of christ could lose her kid for a few days then I'm not doing so bad. lol But I have always wondered about Jesus' part in that. Why did he wander off without telling his parents where he was going? I know he answered Mary's question about being about his father's business but still..... doesn't respect, courtesy, honoring your parents call for telling mom where you are going? I'm not sure I would call that a sin, maybe chalk it up with the other "learning curves". Just an interesting one to ponder on. lol

Was Jesus perfect? yes, that's the accepted doctrine and what should be taught in church.

I would say don't be afraid to speak up right then and there and challenge for references, even if it's the teacher or stake leaders. I've done it, and I've been challenged. lol We are more than comfortable to stop the discussion and ask for references on things that are said, not always because we don't think it's right but we want to learn and seek it for ourselves. If someone doesn't have it in front of them they comment that they will bring it next week. Sometimes that info is shared privately the next week to those who asked and sometimes it's part of the opening exercises. I guess that's the advantage to being in a small branch?

[mikbone]

It may help to recognize that this lesson was based upon Lorenzo Snow's point of view. President Snow had a deep love for the Plan of Exaltation and the pathway that man travels to become as God is.

Don't think of his statements as a comment on the imperfection of Christ, but more likely a comment on the Gods expectations of the Saints.

[applepansy]

It may help to recognize that this lesson was based upon Lorenzo Snow's point of view. President Snow had a deep love for the Plan of Exaltation and the pathway that man travels to become as God is.

Don't think of his statements as a comment on the imperfection of Christ, but more likely a comment on the Gods expectations of the Saints.

It wasn't Pres. Snow's comments. It was another sister in our ward. :) Not the teacher.

[mikbone]

It wasn't Pres. Snow's comments. It was another sister in our ward. :) Not the teacher.

Chapter 7: Faithfulness in Times of Trial: “From the Shadows into the Glorious Sunshine”

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow

Some of our brethren have queried whether hereafter, they could feel themselves worthy of full fellowship with Prophets and Saints of old, who endured trials and persecutions; and with Saints … who suffered in Kirtland, in Missouri and Illinois. The brethren referred to have expressed regrets that they had not been associated in those scenes of suffering. If any of these are present, I will say, for the consolation of such, you have to wait but a short time and you will have similar opportunities, to your heart’s content. You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]. In His prayer and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, He foreshadowed the purifying process necessary in the lives of those whose ambition prompts them to secure the glory of a celestial kingdom. None should try to escape by resorting to any compromising measures. (Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Feb. 9, 1886, p.1)

Take it individually or take it collectively, we have suffered and we shall have to suffer again, and why? Because the Lord requires it at our hands for our sanctification. (Deseret News, Oct. 28, 1857, p.270)

These lines are a direct quote from lesson 7 from the Lorenzo Snow manual. It is implied... The sister in your class made a logical conclusion...

Edited April 22, 2013 by mikbone

[THIRDpersonviewer]

How I read and understand President Snow's qoute there. Jesus Christ was not perfected. To be perfect is to be like God in every way. That is implied with MAT 5:48. And demonstrated when Christ teaches this to the Nephites 12:48.(I think i have the right references).

In order for Christ to become like our Father He had to do what all of us have to do here. Come to this earth, receive a body, be obedient to the will of God(Abraham 3:25), die, be resurrected, and receive our inheritance from our Father. Christ did all of these things.

The only one on that list, that I gave, which pertains to our agency and choice in this life is choosing to obey the will of the Father. That is what we all do here. In the process of that, President Snow's comment about suffering is an element of that will. It is God's will that we suffer. If we endure faithfully then we will be blessed and have more suffering later. Until the day when we have proven to God that we will suffer all things for Christ. That we have made Abraham's sacrifice. This suffering, as President Snow indicated, sanctifies us.

This idea then indicates why we come here to obey. It is to be changed, molded, and become new creatures of God, who are holy, and clean without spot.

[Praetorian_Brow]

There is far too much idealism when it comes to definite matters such as declaring Jesus as this or that. We know about what, 5 years of his life, if that. Those few years are written about by others, in hindsight, years later. Given our current doctrine, he would have had a family at some point and to have the head of our church as contrary to our beliefs, would be a strange thing indeed.

In my opinion, I believe he had to be human and had to experience imperfection through his own choices, in order for the atonement to make the impact it did. It is not enough to suffer for everyone else and feel himself perfect, which would lessen the personal sacrifice.

Getting a body introduces limitless possibilities of imperfection and for me, believing that Jesus was once one of us and overcame his own imperfections along with our massive combined frailties is far more hope inducing than believing that he chose to be my older brother out of perfection. It does not lessen who he is to me, believing that he was imperfect, but reinforces the idea, that I can walk in his footsteps, if I choose.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Praetorian_Brow

[Blackmarch]

Yesterday in RS one of the sister said many didn't know but Christ wasn't perfect.

Where would she get this idea? I've been searching scriptures and haven't been able to figure out where she came up with this.

May want to ask her to define it more. Christ did have a body that was capable of going thru mortal death whic could be construed as a sort of imperfection.

Also during his mortal ministries there were points where he did not know all things, and that could also be considered an imperfection.

He also started at a lower point relativel and grew bothwith man and god... One could suppose his not being at an apex of progression as a sort of imperfecion.

Of course this all hinges at how one defines applies perfection.

[Traveler]

The problem is concerning the definition of terms and understanding Matt 5:48 and the manner Jesus made his statement.

In modern times we understand perfect to mean not flawed - and have difficulty thinking in any other terms. But in ancient times perfect mean complete. So if someone was not complete but without flaws we could not pronounce them perfect - at least until they became completed or completed their mission.

Jesus understood perfect to mean complete in the same manner that we are to understand whole and holy. All of which converge on a understanding of complete and completeness. Since Jesus had not completed his work he could not say he was perfect that would not come until later after his resurrection and glorification.

And so many have a problem in understanding Jesus needed to complete his mission to be complete. The real problem is that they think if something is not perfect than to them it is flawed. That is the whole problem with this thread.

I personally like the idea that perfect means possessing all and being complete. I do not like the idea and doctrine that once flawed someone or something cannot be made perfect or complete.

But all that do not want to understand and want to find reason for confusion - have at it my friends. Go in circles with you logic and accomplish nothing or learn anything preventing any completion and remaining forever with you perfect pieces of things that do not add up to complete anything.

The Traveler

[applepansy]

May want to ask her to define it more. Christ did have a body that was capable of going thru mortal death whic could be construed as a sort of imperfection.

Also during his mortal ministries there were points where he did not know all things, and that could also be considered an imperfection.

He also started at a lower point relativel and grew bothwith man and god... One could suppose his not being at an apex of progression as a sort of imperfecion.

Of course this all hinges at how one defines applies perfection.

I can understand your first two points but not the third because Jesus started by creating our world and universe.

[Martain]

D&C 93

8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

9 The alight and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

When I think of our Saviors mortal lifetime I can sum it up in one phrase.

Jesus was a perfect.

Though tempted, he never sinned not even once. Though he suffered trials and torments and afflictions of all kinds, he never murmured. Being born of the mortal Mary he inherited a mortal body that could die and all the weakness and physical imperfections that attend to it.

Is a physical mortal body such as our Savior received from his mother perfect like unto how our Heavenly Father's body is perfect? No. Did he walk a perfect life in accordance with gospel law and his father's will? Yes.

There is a difference between being perfect and being perfected. Christ was everything the Father needed him to be, did everything the Father needed him to do and did such perfectly. As such he progressed grace from grace until he obtain a fullness thereof. If you had a child that did such, would you not call them perfect? If so who but He is worthy of such a title from our Father?

God does not in this life require our perfection but he does require our obedience. Perfection is gained over time by being obedient and is the fruit of such obedience. Hence he who is perfectly obedient to God is, in this phase of existence, perfect.

Our perfectly brother was the perfect example of sinless obedience. Let's continue to follow =).

[ElectofGod]

Luke 22:42

American King James Version

Saying, Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.

I think too often we don't realize the Independence he had, the growth he himself took. He was basically asking, Is there no other way for me to atone for others? I wish there was another way but if there isn't I will do it this way.

He didn't know the will of all things apparently. He just sought after god's will continuously and did it.

[Finrock]

I don't believe for a second that Jesus committed any sin. He did not. He was perfectly obedient. However, while a mortal, He was not yet completely perfected in every way. I have to believe that even Jesus had to pass through His trial to be made perfect.

It seems I've drawn on this quote a few times lately, but it is relavant to this question as well.

President Snow said:

"You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]."

President Snow says without equivocation that Jesus could not be made perfect except through suffering. This must mean that there was a time when Jesus was not perfect.

How can you be "made" perfect through a process if you are already perfect? If I believe President Snow's words, then it is nonsense to believe that Jesus was perfect before He went through sufferring.

President Young said:

"All intelligent beings who are crowned with crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives must pass through every ordeal appointed for intelligent beings to pass through, to gain their glory and exaltation."

"You all know that the Saints must be made pure, to enter into the celestial kingdom. It is recorded that Jesus was made perfect through suffering [see Hebrews 5:8–9]. Why should we imagine for one moment that we can be prepared to enter into the kingdom of rest with him and the Father, without passing through similar ordeals?" (Emphasis added).

Respectfully,

Finrock