Two Witnesses

[Nate]

So we have read and understood that the children of Israel were waiting for a Messiah to be there king. It was fulfilled. Many waited for a restoration in differ forms and we as LDS believe that it was fulfilled through "that great prophet" Joseph Smith. So we in our scriptures still have two prophets to come before the coming of the Lord. Are they looked forward to like other prophets in the past have been? Are we looking for them and like people of old looking and speculating on there coming. Are they in our mist now? Of course the coming of Christ is a bit more consuming to think of in the events leading up to that point but have we thought of those two still to come? Insights?

[a-train]

Are you referring to the two prophets in Revelation 11?

-a-train

[Nate]

Are you referring to the two prophets in Revelation 11?

-a-train

yes

[prisonchaplain]

WOW! I'm teaching on Rev. 11 today. The most commonly accepted view seems to be that these two are Moses and Elijah. Jewish tradition agrees. There is a view that this time of great trouble is not something Christians will experience--that we shall see Jesus beforehand, and be spared this horrific season.

[Nate]

WOW! I'm teaching on Rev. 11 today. The most commonly accepted view seems to be that these two are Moses and Elijah. Jewish tradition agrees. There is a view that this time of great trouble is not something Christians will experience--that we shall see Jesus beforehand, and be spared this horrific season.

Perhaps not chance inspired this topic?! I understand that they will be preaching to the people and with that would there not be christians? Cant say that I believe that they will be Moses or Elijah either, though the powers that will be displayed are very simular especially that of Elijah. Even if one believes in a rapture would there not be conversions after that event? There will always be Christians upon this earth now untill we inherit it.

Every generation believes that theirs is the one that Christ will come, what makes this one differ?

I dont know but I feel that these prophets are upon the earth now.

To the LDS folks. If Elder Mckonkie stated that they would be faithfull followers of the prophet Joseph Smith then we could look to the quorm on who this could possible be. Kinda goes back to what I origonaly stated about do we as a people actually look forward to these prophets as the ancients looks for there prophets. I do not feel that it will be any in the quorm now cause of age, upcomeing generations perhaps.

All of christianity has looked forward to these prophets preceeding the millineum. Why do we as a church have so little of opinion on these two. Surely they are significant enough that The Lord reveled to John about these two 2000 years ago. If we are the church of the last days then whats up?

Thank you for you insights PC.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps not chance inspired this topic?! I understand that they will be preaching to the people and with that would there not be christians? Cant say that I believe that they will be Moses or Elijah either, though the powers that will be displayed are very simular especially that of Elijah. Even if one believes in a rapture would there not be conversions after that event? There will always be Christians upon this earth now untill we inherit it.

I agree. In fact, right after the rapture, I would guess millions would see the reality, and convert.

Every generation believes that theirs is the one that Christ will come, what makes this one differ?

I dont know but I feel that these prophets are upon the earth now.

One difference between now and 20 years ago is that there is far less speculation and excitement about the coming of Christ than there was prior to Y2K. The whole thing got over-hyped, and since then, we are loathe to speculate.

Since the time of his return would coincide with when people are not eagerly waiting in anticipation, I'd say we are seeing perfect return-conditions.

[a-train]

It is interesting to see the unfolding of events in Jerusalem. As I'm certain everyone is aware, D&C 76:15 which was given in March 1832 says: "They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers."

The destruction of Jerusalem was around 1720 years before Joseph Smith's birth, but the time of the rebuilding of Jerusalem came only 100 years after his death. William Wallace Smith, Joseph Smith's grandson, lived to witness the rebuilding.

I poked around the net and this is a hotly and widely debated topic throughout the Christian world; the Church and Israel, The Old and New Testament, Groups of Christian Witnesses, resurrected ancient Prophets such as Enoch and Elias, man you name it, it has been considered.

Although it is yet illegal to proselyte in Israel, the Church has become so welcome there that President Hinkley was virtually begged to send students back after a period wherein security and safety issues caused Church leaders to withdraw BYU Jerusalem students. (www.ynetnews.com)

My personal opinion is that the time will come that the Church will flourish there and many Jews will accept the Gospel. A temple will be built and the people will get their endowments there. Their will be a great Jewish Priesthood body there and these two Prophets will be in their midst. Whether General Authorities or simply two Elders, it matters not in my estimation.

How far out will all this be? I can at least tell you that we have the assurance from our current leaders that we will raise our children and our grandchildren. But it's coming fast.

-a-train

[Traveler]

WOW! I'm teaching on Rev. 11 today. The most commonly accepted view seems to be that these two are Moses and Elijah. Jewish tradition agrees. There is a view that this time of great trouble is not something Christians will experience--that we shall see Jesus beforehand, and be spared this horrific season.

What you are posting is a most important notion. LDS believe that Moses and Elijah will come - First to gather scattered Israel and then "to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers". We believe this ancient prophesy has already occurred. (See Doctrine and Covenants 110:11-15) We believe that scattered Israel is being gathered under G-d direction and that family histories are being researched all as part of the restoration of all things.

BTW: PC: I recommend you consider putting together a record of your ancestors. If you could use some help – I suggest you start at the official LDS church web site lds.org and select the topic “family histories and temples”.

The Traveler

[Nate]

How do you think these prophets will be raised. There has never been a significant prophet foretold in the scriptures that is some sort of resurrected being from the past. It seems there is a differ prophet per assignment/event. I just dont buy that they are from a previous generation.

So are they in our mist today. How do you think they will be prepared. Will there parents know of there mission and be instructed so that they are raised correctly? Are they in your decons quorm? Just interesting thoughts to think. It seems that there will be many significant roles to be filled when the fecal matter hits the osculating wind producer. Just look at our youth, what roles will they play. What burdens will they be asked to carry?

[a-train]

It is my opinion they will be of natural Jewish decent. They will be either converts or the children of converted Jews currently engaged in the rebuilding of the Holy Land.

Indeed parents today (I am one) face a tremendously terrible world to place their children in. Joseph Smith believed the wickedness in the world of his time was comparable to the times of Noah.

I can hardly fathom how to make the world a worse place than it already is. Technology brings vivid carnal knowledge of ungodliness to all the world now, and although love and tolerance is preached more than ever, war and violence seem to go on and on among a more lazy and murmuring people. Courts are full of people bringing cases that take gigantic assets from the working and give them to the idle. The prisons are overloaded and innocent men are punished while the wicked go free. The average American youth believes shoplifting isn't wrong if its from a large corporation. Honesty and integrity is regarded as foolishness as parents lie in front of their kids. Marriage is a joke. Is there anything sacred anymore?

Great pestilence and war continually seems to sweep over mankind. The 20th Century definitely showed wars of more than Biblical proportion. I think it laughable that some people pretend the bad times haven't began yet, they must be very blessed. Our grandparents didn't waste money on locks, we now spend hundreds a month on alarm systems, safes, and insurance and still get robbed.

I've had my car broken into more than once, my business broken into, countless shoplifters in my business (parents stealing for themselves while their younger children cry when they are arrested), violence against my family and friends, thieves at my home, countless friends involved in drugs from just dabbling to DEAD, and worst of all, my Dad was murdered with a gun by theives when I was six years old (I am the oldest of three). I could go on.

I am privileged to be a white American and have lived in decent suburbian places most of my life. All of this wickedness I have seen and I am only 30 years old. I can't imagine what kids in 3rd world countries see.

THIS WORLD IS WICKED MAN! RIPE!

What are we going to do to save our kids? EVERYTHING WE CAN. Follow every word that proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God and stand in Holy Places, because He is going to wreck the kingdom of the Devil. Fear not, be of good cheer.

But my estimation is that those witnesses will be largely rejected. Despite the war and destrution, the plagues and pestilence, there will only be few who will receive their testimony. Just as the millions today who think that the destruction among us is only a coincidence, only natural, it is just too hard to acknowledge the hand of God in all things. A scientific explanation does away with it and those that believe such 'foolishness' are to be scorned and joked about.

Ah, I just wanna weep. No wonder the prophets who saw the whole of it did.

-a-train

[Eric Pierre]

21

And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She said to Him, “Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right and one on Your left.”

 

22

But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.”

 

23

He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on

My

left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.” -Matt. 20:21-23

The one on the left and the one on the right are the Two Witnesses my friend. Revelation 11:1-14. Jesus chose his apostles, God the Father chose these two others in addition to choosing the Messiah, The Christ, to represent The Word, Heavenly Father's Eternal Word, in preparation of Christ’s return prior His millennial reign, similar to John, The Baptist, who was prepared and prepared the way before The Christ, who began His/The Gospel Mission. God chose some and Christ had authority to choose others given from the Priesthood authority as we know it from our Heavenly Father.  The two, one on the left and the one on the right, are NOT, Elijah, Mosses, or Enoch, which many stumble on in confusion.

 

Elijah, and Enoch’s bodies have already been translated into resurrected bodies in the blink of an eye. Hence their bodies can no longer taste death as mortals.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Eric Pierre

[Anddenex]

May 1972 Ensign edition I believe speaks on this and I believe one will be named David, if my memory suits from this Ensign article.

[Eric Pierre]

May 1972 Ensign edition speaks NOT on this, but of another leader, not necessarily a prophet or one of the two Candlesticks. I've heard this alleged relation before by a PHd theologian currently working on the Joseph Smith Papers likewise, interesting this gentleman and brother in the Lord of mine also is named David.  But there is no relation between this article https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/05/the-future-of-the-holy-land?lang=eng  and the two lampstands.  Joseph Smith never tied the two topics together.  Your memory suits you correct in that it mentions a David yet to be established with a leaderdhip role in Jerusalem, from this Ensign article.  The names of the witness are hidden in plain sight within the scriptures only to be revealed by the spirit such as in the way this information on Matt. 20:21-23 had been given via the Good Spirits enlightenment.

[cdowis]

There was a "rumour" that such and such was told in his patriarchial blessing that he would be be one of the witnesses.  The only problem is that there were about 20 such individuals.

 

That rumor was replaced that "such and such" got a mission call letter that President Monson  will announce where he will be going in conference (mainland China, of course).  This usually repeats itself about two weeks before conference.

Edited January 18, 2015 by cdowis

[Eric Pierre]

Never heard of such a rumor.  Seriously doubt a patriarchal blessing would reveal the Olive calling (one of the two) to an individual via that venue.  Such revelation is top tier that only the LDS Prophet now or any future LDS Prophet there after and there after would and will know of the individuals along with the individuals.  Christ Church will know them once the President and The Prophet of the Church confirms such information, whither it be The President of the LDS Church included or another two.  Could an individual holding the position as President of The LDS Church be one of the Olive Trees? Sure.  Though I doubt that would be the case.  The Church will need a President sound and strong to run, operate, and service The Church as most efficient as the Lord has always commanded especially when The Church is persecuted like before seen in times past.  The Olive's may or may not be part of the 1st Presidency, but via a former LDS'S  Apostle's authority, revealed a statement otherwise.

 

Elder Bruce R. McConkie identified the two prophets as “followers of that humble man Joseph Smith, through whom the Lord of Heaven restored the fullness of his everlasting gospel in this final dispensation of grace. No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church.

 

One must also know that as the LDS Church converts many followers of Christ to Christ, that many are ethnically Jewish, especially those of Ashkenazic and Sephardi/Sephardic Jewish lineage.  Many hid their true beliefs due to the Spanish inquisition and began practicing Christianity, but were practicing Jews in secrecy due to the livelihood and reality of constant death intimidation.  The children of that generation eventually lost their Jewish religious identities, but ethnically have remained Jewish, let alone those of Mexico and south America.  The natives may have already been a mix of Jewish blood lines if one believes in The Book of Mormon, and archaeological factual evidence (which indicates numerous accounts of hewbrew and jewish ties with the new world).  Later these generations of the new world post- Columbian were mixed with the English, Portuguese, Italian, French, and Spanish which may have be descendants of those Jewish families that hid in the pre-Columbian history during the inquisition.  So the Jewish ethnicity runs via the stick of Ephraim and Manasseh clearly.

[Blackmarch]

So we have read and understood that the children of Israel were waiting for a Messiah to be there king. It was fulfilled. Many waited for a restoration in differ forms and we as LDS believe that it was fulfilled through "that great prophet" Joseph Smith. So we in our scriptures still have two prophets to come before the coming of the Lord. Are they looked forward to like other prophets in the past have been? Are we looking for them and like people of old looking and speculating on there coming. Are they in our mist now? Of course the coming of Christ is a bit more consuming to think of in the events leading up to that point but have we thought of those two still to come? Insights?

well within the LDS circles the Apostles are considered to be Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.... so from that angle it would be two from that circle. what will be interesting over the years is seeing who will be called to be such, and who of them are in the jerusalem/middle east area at any time.

[pam]

Nothing like reviving a 7 year old thread.  

[mordorbund]

Maybe its really about two threads that will lie dormant for 3 1/2 years each (one about the power of Moses, the other about the power of Elijah), only to have them resurrected suddenly!

[cdowis]

Never heard of such a rumor.  Seriously doubt a patriarchal blessing would reveal the Olive calling (one of the two) to an individual via that venue.  Such revelation is top tier that only the LDS Prophet now or any future LDS Prophet there after and there after would and will know of the individuals along with the individuals.  Christ Church will know them once the President and The Prophet of the Church confirms such information, whither it be The President of the LDS Church included or another two.  Could an individual holding the position as President of The LDS Church be one of the Olive Trees? Sure.  Though I doubt that would be the case.  The Church will need a President sound and strong to run, operate, and service The Church as most efficient as the Lord has always commanded especially when The Church is persecuted like before seen in times past.  The Olive's may or may not be part of the 1st Presidency, but via a former LDS'S  Apostle's authority, revealed a statement otherwise.

 

Elder Bruce R. McConkie identified the two prophets as “followers of that humble man Joseph Smith, through whom the Lord of Heaven restored the fullness of his everlasting gospel in this final dispensation of grace. No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church.

 

 

Of course this is merely his personal opinion.  Interesting but "no doubt" becomes "doubtful" when one considers other opinions he has expressed (race and the phd, for example)

 

Anyway, MY opinion is, no doubt,  that there will be a mission opened some day in Israel, and these will be simply two of the humble servants who are serving in that mission.  I think that is how the Lord works.  The apostles, etc,  will be busy fulfilling their church assignments elsewhere.

[hagoth]

There is cause to believe the two witnesses were Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith - two members of the First Presidency in 1844.

 

In part of Joseph's translation of Revelation, he translated 1260 "days" as 1260 "years". You can look up the Day-year principle for more information on how several other faiths believe this to be a valid principle, even though they don't accept Joseph's translation. Years back, I documented some of the extensive scriptural foundation for the day-year principle in a book called 1844 in Prophecy - Part 1.

 

Also, year 1260 of the Muslim calendar ended in what we know as the year 1844.  I also wrote about this and the timelines in Revelation in a book called 1844 in Prophecy - Part 2.

Edited February 3, 2015 by hagoth