Gadianton robbers and governments

[Traveler]

I think we need to be careful not to be political in this question but what do members of the forum believe to be evidences that a Gadianton inspired secret society has taken control or power over a government?

The Traveler

[pam]

I'm not sure how this thread could NOT turn into something political. It's inevitable.

[skalenfehl]

I think we need to be careful not to be political in this question but what do members of the forum believe to be evidences that a Gadianton inspired secret society has taken control or power over a government?

The Traveler

Existence has always been political. The war in heaven was political. It continues today. A great chunk of the Book of Mormon was devoted to this very subject that we would be more wise than they. Unfortunately, we have not been. And a price will be paid. Yes, there are many gadiantons in seats of power today and have been for some time. A blind man can see it.

[Traveler]

I'm not sure how this thread could NOT turn into something political. It's inevitable.

I hope you will keep at bay the post that blame by name any particular party or individual - the idea is to give what one thinks as evidence. It is my belief that Gadiantons can operate as well in one ideology as another. Therefore it would not be what they say nor their platform but by something else?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Existence has always been political. The war in heaven was political. It continues today. A great chunk of the Book of Mormon was devoted to this very subject that we would be more wise than they. Unfortunately, we have not been. And a price will be paid. Yes, there are many gadiantons in seats of power today and have been for some time. A blind man can see it.

Can you give specific examples (not names) of what you believe (especially scriptural references) Gadiantons do in seats of power? - that would not likely or possibly not occur without their presents?

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

Yeesh...how much time do you have? This has been going on practically since the Civil War. Heck it began with the Revolutionary War. Started with banks. I'm not a good historian, though. I think it was Jackson that defeated the banks. It goes back further with Rothschild in England--took over Europe. Then took over US in what...1913? I think it was when the Federal Reserve was created. What a sham that process was.

"You can buy anything in this world with money."

But now there is credit. And debt. And money is worthless. Follow the trail. If you want, I can message you with more info. I'm not in proper frame of mind to go into detail here and have accusations heaped at me. Read Ether chapter 8.

[Martain]

Two primary subjects in the world that are most avoided are Politics and Religion which both deal directly with the war in heaven that is continued here on earth for freedom. Perhaps the reason they are such volatile subjects is because the Devil doesn't want us talking about politics for the same reason he doesn't want us talking about religion?

We know via the Book of Mormon that the primary goal of such societies and groups is power, wealth, and sex. All such groups in the Book of Mormon sought out control of the government as subverted governments are the greatest tools available in accomplishing their goals.

We have ancient and latter-day prophets warning that such combinations are flourishing in our day. Thus where as they always seek out control of government to subvert it, and government related issues are political, a question regarding latter-day evidences will be political.

While what Skalenfehl said is true, and while a blind man could see it, most choose not to. Even many of the Saints prefer to believe all is well in Zion when all is most definitely not and I was among those many until more recently.

If you sincerely want to know truth and seek book of evidences that clearly identifies such groups and their relation to government, pray about reading "There Are Save Two Churches Only" by LDS author D. Christian Markham.

I did and was blessed tremendously by the Spirit of the Lord in doing so. I was the blind refusing to see but now I see far more clearly.

[annewandering]

How do we know who is gadianton and who is just stupid? Or are they the same?

I have seen people start out in politics and gain a strong support. They stand strong and firm on doing right by their constituents. Then overnight they are different people. Dont know if they were ever the people we thought they were or they have been compromised by campaign funding or what but they change and it is not for the good of the people. Their voting always favors people with money. And it pays them. Literally.

When is it going to change to more than being bought? In the Book of Mormon these people started threatening and assassinating their opponents and their opponents families. While that does happen it hasnt gotten to be common place yet.

Those people in positions of power in government are beholden not to the people who elected them but to the ones who pay for them to be elected. It matters not what kind of people they are in their lives. It is about how much they will be sold for. One man was elected recently to high office despite being immoral and unethical. Another 'flashes' himself to women on social networks and is running again for office. It makes no difference in them being elected. There are so many like those two that are in public view as power players.

How do they get there and stay? We do have votes. Why dont we boot them and keep them out? We enable crooked people to get power and keep it even knowing what they are. We are like mobs. Someone yells kill and we go after the target with viciousness. If we dont stop and think we are no better than the gadiontons. We enable them to do what they want. And we ADMIRE and defend their actions.

Right now, as you read this, you are thinking, yes the other side does this and they need to stop it now or we are lost. I would take bets on that. Maybe its time to stop and wonder if WE are the ones who are the problem not that other person. In politics and business it might pay to be paranoid about the motivations of those we support.

[talisyn]

As I recall, the Gadiantons started out robbing before entering politics. Yeah, Don't even get me started on this subject. Traveler, I think this is one topic where Mormons across the political spectrum can agree: they are real, we have been warned they will be here in this time, and we have to do what we can to stop them.

[Letrell]

The War in Heaven was political? Holy cow. You believe this? I'm gobsmacked. The War in Heaven had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with choosing the right and finding a way back to our Father in Heaven.

I am just gobsmacked here. Our Father in Heaven is NOT a God of politics. I am just.....gobsmacked. So...I've said that and will just read further and see where in the heck this thread is going.

*confused and amazed*

[mirkwood]

The war in heaven has become politicized on earth. It has never ended.

Ezra Taft Benson, BYU Speeches, December 10, 1963, p. 17.

“The scriptures tell us about the war in heaven over free agency—similar to the war we are going through now, where the devil's program was guaranteed security as opposed to the Lord's program of letting each choose for himself even if he makes the wrong choice. Once you understand these scriptures you will understand why the Presidents of the Church have opposed Communism, Socialism, and the Welfare State and you will see why you must oppose them, too, if you are in harmony with the word of the Lord.”

[ElectofGod]

The Lord can reveal them.

Awake to our awful situation…

We shall start in sequence:

Moses 5:51 “For, from the days of Cain, there was a secret combination their works were in the dark . . .”

Ether 11:15 “And it came to pass that there arose a rebellion among the people, because of that secret combination which was built up to get power and gain. . .”

Helaman 2:8 “. . .and how that it was his object to murder, and also that it was the object of all those who belonged to his band to murder, and to rob, and to gain power, (and this was their secret plan, and their combination)

Helaman 3:23 “. . .there was continual peace established in the land, all save it were the secret combinations which Gadianton the robber had established in the more settled parts of the land, which at that time were not known unto those who were at the head of government; therefore they were not destroyed out of the land.

Helaman 6:38 “. . . the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

3 Nephi 7:6 “And the regulations of the government were destroyed, because of the secret combination . . .”

Relating to our day:

Ether 8: 23-24 “Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you [too late!?], . . . when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you . . .”

2 Nephi 26:22 “And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things . . .”

D&C 42:64 “And even now, let him that goeth to the east teach them that shall be converted to flee to the west, and this in consequence of that which is coming on the earth, and of secret combinations.”

So what is our awful situation? Secret combinations will be another lesson.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall beaswept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the bfulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are cswept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye aGentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the bwrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

How does the story of the jaredites and nephites relate to us? Do we have this promise today still? The Lord is warning us to awaken to the destruction of our country.

"Bands of Gadianton robbers will infest every nation, immorality and murder and crime will increase, and it will seem as though every man’s hand is against his brother."

"Peace has been taken from the earth, the angels of destruction have begun their work, and their swords shall not be sheathed until the Prince of Peace comes to destroy the wicked and usher in the great Millennium.

"There will be earthquakes and floods and famines. The waves of the sea shall heave themselves beyond their bounds, the clouds shall withhold their rain, and the crops of the earth shall wither and die.

"There will be plagues and pestilence and disease and death. An overflowing scourge shall cover the earth and a desolating sickness shall sweep the land. Flies shall take hold of the inhabitants of the earth, and maggots shall come in upon them. (See D&C 29:14–20.) “Their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets” (D&C 29:19). (April 1979 General Conference, Bruce R. McConkie, “Stand Independent above All Other Creatures,” Ensign, May 1979, 92)

Edited May 28, 2013 by Eowyn
removing link to borderline anti website

[rameumptom]

I think there are always a variety of groups, some secret combinations, some not, seeking to run government. The Gadiantons were probably only one of several groups among the Nephites, but became the most prominent, and so all others were lumped under them.

Any group that seeks to get gain: power, wealth, fame, at the expense of the liberty and virtue of the people, is a secret combination. I'm certain King Noah thought he was doing wonderful thing for his people when he built pretty monuments for them to look at and enjoy, eased up on chastity laws, etc. I'm certain some people thought him to be very popular for doing those things. Just as King Hassan is still supported by many people in Syria today, King Noah undoubtedly was also.

The kings most honored in the BoM are Benjamin and Mosiah II. Benjamin was honored for laboring with his own hands, seeking virtue, peace, and freedom of the people. Mosiah II sought to give greater governance directly to the people, giving up the reign of kings into the people's hands.

I don't think that the Gadiantons felt they were evil people. I think they felt the ends justified their means in establishing what they thought would be a good government. Note the Gadianton governor's missive to Lachoneus: stating their secret society was good, or the secret combinations making their oaths in the name of God.

[skalenfehl]

The War in Heaven was political? Holy cow. You believe this? I'm gobsmacked. The War in Heaven had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with choosing the right and finding a way back to our Father in Heaven.

I am just gobsmacked here. Our Father in Heaven is NOT a God of politics. I am just.....gobsmacked. So...I've said that and will just read further and see where in the heck this thread is going.

*confused and amazed*

Politics is defined as the activity that is associated with governing.

"And the government shall be upon His shoulders."

There has always been a government in heaven ruled by a King (2 Ne 10:14).

I think people associate politics with local government, politicians, stumping, debates, etc. Our Father in heaven has given us laws and commandments. We have made covenants to obey them. Satan wishes to rob us of our agency. But you are correct, He is not a "God of politics" but that doesn't mean there is no form of government or no laws that govern the universe.

Semantics.

[Traveler]

Perhaps if I gave one of the indications that I believe demonstrate that a evil secret organization is at work in a particular government. I think that reference to the war in heaven is a good type and shadow. Therefore I would say a sign of Gadianton robbers inspired influence would be to divide the citizens into opposing political parties.

I believe this is the reason that the LDS church encourages citizens be involved but does not support any political party nor encourage any of its members to criticize others because of political party affiliation.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

Perhaps if I gave one of the indications that I believe demonstrate that a evil secret organization is at work in a particular government. I think that reference to the war in heaven is a good type and shadow. Therefore I would say a sign of Gadianton robbers inspired influence would be to divide the citizens into opposing political parties.

I believe this is the reason that the LDS church encourages citizens be involved but does not support any political party nor encourage any of its members to criticize others because of political party affiliation.

The Traveler

I take it the key here is the division into parties rather than like minded individuals working towards a common goal?

[prisonchaplain]

The two-party system used to be a means of leaders sharpening their thinking and their work. At the end of the day, these leaders would often dine together, regardless of party affiliation. Something sour took place in the last few decades, and now the two parties fight for their own preservation and influence, with seemingly little regard for the national wellbeing. The distrust and gamesmenship have destroyed most civility, and our leaders act more like enemy combatants than partriotic and loyal opponents.

I've only a vague idea about Gadianton robbers from this string, but there does seem to be a spiritual darkness that is growing in our land.

[Dravin]

I've only a vague idea about Gadianton robbers from this string, but there does seem to be a spiritual darkness that is growing in our land.

If you're interested in the relevant sections of the Book of Mormon going into them you can find a list here, Gadianton Robbers. Wikipedia also seems to have a halfway decent short article about them, though I must confess I haven't double checked the particulars, Gadianton robbers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The cliff notes version is that they were a secret society bound together by oaths to get gain and power with no qualms over using evil to achieve those ends.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Dravin

[Traveler]

I take it the key here is the division into parties rather than like minded individuals working towards a common goal?

Like minded individuals seldom need a political party to champion their ideas - realizing that sound ideas of liberty and freedom are universal.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Like minded individuals seldom need a political party to champion their ideas - realizing that sound ideas of liberty and freedom are universal.

The Traveler

Traveler...are you arguing in favor of non-denominationalism?

[Anddenex]

I would assume, if a person feels "afraid" or "fearful" to speak out, not due to personal insecurities, due to the possibility of being targeted by factions of the government, then this is evidence the ideology of the Gadianton robbers is among us.

[NeuroTypical]

Here's a little Gadiantons 101 for everyone:

"Seats of power" can be found in many, many different places. When y'all focus on governmental offices, it's sort of like trying to count all the humans in a room and only focusing on the ones with freckles. Here's a quick test - do you know how many degrees of separation are between your teenage kid and a gadianton? If you don't, or you think it's more than 3, there's a chance your kid IS one. Stop looking for melodramatic government conspiracies, and tend to your own offspring. Satan is playing you for a fool, and laughing at what he can accomplish right under your nose, maybe in your own home.

Here's some Gadiantons 210:

"Power" doesn't always mean what we think it does. Often, especially when dealing with things Gadianton, it only means "everyone believes you have power, so you have power". In other words, satan lies about what is important, and the more people you can get to believe you've got it, the better a gadianton you are.

There is power in the priesthood. God has power. Satan has lies. He tells us our ability to destroy, manipulate, use unrighteous dominion is power. To the extent that we believe him, and can get others to believe him, he kind of wins.

In other words, judging by the posts in this thread (and every other gadianton thread I've seen in the last decade), satan is, to a certain extent, winning.

Read about real power - especially Romans 13:1. Then talk to me about government offices and the ability to command armies and make people afraid and tax and stuff.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Dravin]

When y'all focus on governmental offices, it's sort of like trying to count all the humans in a room and only focusing on the ones with freckles.

You do realize the OP primed this discussion for government right? That makes complaints that the broader topic isn't being covered to be akin to pointing out that nobody is talking about chocolate chip cookies in a thread started to discuss types of Oreos. It's accurate, but it's basically pointing out people are staying on topic.

[Martain]

The War in Heaven was political? Holy cow. You believe this? I'm gobsmacked. The War in Heaven had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with choosing the right and finding a way back to our Father in Heaven.

I am just gobsmacked here. Our Father in Heaven is NOT a God of politics. I am just.....gobsmacked. So...I've said that and will just read further and see where in the heck this thread is going.

*confused and amazed*

Suppose you have two candidates in front of you each who are volunteering for a particular position of prestige and power. Both present their plans and cases as to what they would do with such authority and offer promises in return for their election and you are then called upon to vote or choose who you want in office if the choice were yours to make.

Would we not describe such a scenario as political? Sounds like a Presidential election right?

Long ago, you had two candidates in front of you who were each volunteering for the position as our Savior. Lucifer presented his plan, told us what he'd do with the power, and promised that not one of us would be lost in exchange for our agency (freedom). Jehovah indicated he would follow the Father's plan, told us he would give up the glory, and promised to come and do all that he did in working out the atonement. Eventually we were all called upon to indicate or vote our preference as to who we wanted as our Savior.

How can we not describe such a scenario as political? It was indeed an election for the role of Savior save the final decision then was and remained the Father's to make.

Can I not truthfully define politics as having nothing to do with politics but with people 'choosing the right' in regards to their government so as to live and maintain justice agency and freedom?

Politics can be defined as the activities associated with governance of a country or area. Thus all activities or actions taken by the government, God's government included, in regards to governing a country area or people are political.

Have men and women abused such political power? Yes.

Have they made promises they never meant to keep or in meaning them never keep them? Yes.

Have they compromised their morals and ethics and sold themselves to the highest bidder in thirst of power wealth and prestige? Yes.

Have such individuals cast a shadow of distaste over things political? Yes.

Yet I feel it is important that we overcome the conditioning we've received to view all politicians as corrupt and all political topics and debates as something best left on the bathroom stall doors. Politics is similar to sex in that whether or not such is good or bad depends on where, how and by whom it is used.

After all, do we really think such conditioning is accidental? If the masses do not care for politics then the wicked, who sincerely do care, have all the power.

I'm not surprise by your response but I hope after reading my response you don't feel so 'utterly astounded', had to look up the definition of gobsmacked =), regarding such a notion.

[NeuroTypical]

You do realize the OP primed this discussion for government right? That makes complaints that the broader topic isn't being covered to be akin to pointing out that nobody is talking about chocolate chip cookies in a thread started to discuss types of Oreos.

Sorry - let me try again.

Traveller is looking for "evidences that a Gadianton inspired secret society has taken control or power over a government".

Understanding what power is, is critical to giving any meaningful answer. Romans 13:1 is very important. Gadiantons don't have power, what they have, is a shared belief in an old lie that satan tells us - that unrighteous dominion, the ability to force people to do what you want them to, is power. It is not. In order for it to seem like power, you need someone willing to be unrighteously dominoned over. Someone must choose to do what you want them to. The Gadianton must have someone else bought into the lie, otherwise, they're just a secret club of punks who nobody takes seriously.

So to directly answer Traveller, when you believe that gadiantons can have power, your belief is evidence that it can happen. When you believe it is happening, your belief is evidence that it is happening. Sorry that this is wordy and sounds like semantic fluffery.