government transparency

[carlimac]

So then, considering all this mess, what do think our prophet or the Savior would suggest we do? I would imagine something like, "Be watchful but unafraid. Be scrupulously honest and full of integrity in your communications online. Focus on righteous purposes and you have nothing to fear." Am I missing something?

[skalenfehl]

Our Savior has given us plenty of warning in the BoM and the D&C. I'm not sure if our "awful situation" has peaked yet, though. But the outcome is clear.

[raven2]

So then, considering all this mess, what do think our prophet or the Savior would suggest we do? I would imagine something like, "Be watchful but unafraid. Be scrupulously honest and full of integrity in your communications online. Focus on righteous purposes and you have nothing to fear." Am I missing something?

I can tell you some of what they have said in the past related to our government and secret combinations. Would today's leaders say the same, I don't know. I agree with other that the Book of Mormon focuses a lot on these issues and their impacts on society.

Secret Combinations

by Elder Ezra Taft Benson

Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles

General Conference, October 1961

(Note this talk focuses on socialistic-communism)

"Concerning the United States, the Lord revealed to his prophets that its greatest threat would be a vast, worldwide "secret combination" which would not only threaten the United States but also seek to "overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations."

"One of the most urgent, heart-stirring appeals made by Moroni as he closed the Book of Mormon was addressed to the gentile nations of the last days. He foresaw the rise of a great world-wide secret combination among the gentiles which " . . . seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; . . ." (Ether 8:25. Italics added.) He warned each gentile nation of the last days to purge itself of this gigantic criminal conspiracy which would seek to rule the world."

Other quotes:

(I find this one interesting in the use of single secret combination.)

“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.”

Ezra Taft Benson

November 1988 Ensign

“Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. An evil power seeks to overthrow the freedom of all nations and countries. Satan reigns in the hearts of men; it is the great day of his power.” (Bruce R. McConkie, “The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory,” Ensign, May 1980, p.73)

“Unless those in authority in the United States can be influenced to abandon the suicidal course on which they have embarked–or unless they can be replaced by men who will–we cannot hope to restore in our nation the kind of domestic peace and order which has made our many generations proud to be Americans . . . The crisis we now face is the most serious, the most dangerous, in the history of our country. Each of us must diligently employ our influence and our effort–in speech, letters, and at the ballot box–to help set straight the way.” The facts are clear. Our problem centers in Washington , D.C. And this applies to the administration of both political parties.” (Ezra Taft Benson Americans are Destroying America, General Conference, Apr. 1968)

Edited June 11, 2013 by raven2

[talisyn]

Every time I read quotes from Pres. Benson's early days (before he became a prophet) I have to wonder if this was something he was called out for, or not.

[talisyn]

The worst part of all this is that it is NOT illegal. We let the congress make it legal and we thought it would not be used? Time to open our eyes instead of wearing blinders.

A lot of us knew it would be used like this. I think it was one of the few times the Tea Party and my fellow Really Liberal Liberals were in agreement

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

This is a sign the goverment will become more transparent? You think if their where no whistle blowers the goverment would release such information such as this data collection center they are building?

I am sure any person who was thinking of commiting a terrorist act already knew their email were being watched and phone calls. The Russian inteligence warned our own officals in the US about the tsarnev brothers as a security threat. And still with that information failed to act upon it and stop the planned attack. Even after they said they had phone calls of the oldest brother and still failed to do anything.

The goverment wasent trying to keep this secret from the terrorists. I am sure that any terrorist who is capable of getting a bomb to detonate properly already knew what was going on. The goverment wanted to hide this from the people. Even if the people already knew it was occuring. They wanted to hide the fact that they are now watching any and evey person. Whether they are suspected or not suspected of any crime or future crime.

And our leaders say we must make a choice between security and basic liberties. Well I have more of a chance dieing in my car than I do from a terrorist act. This is only the start. If this data center goes unopposed in the next 10 years or so the NSA will ask for more powers for our security.

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

This doesn't surprise me. I don't know if I'm just naive or too trusting but it really doesn't bother me. I wonder if the FBI or CIA would hire a middle age Mormon woman. I've always aspired to that career. I think it started with reading (and re-reading and re-reading) Harriet the Spy as a Kid.

It probably wont matter to you until your life is harmed directly is someway. Thats the sad part.

[carlimac]

It probably wont matter to you until your life is harmed directly is someway. Thats the sad part.

Sad but true. I have not time, energy or inclination to worry about every possible wrongdoing in the government, especially if it doesn't seem to be interfering with my life.

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

Sad but true. I have not time, energy or inclination to worry about every possible wrongdoing in the government, especially if it doesn't seem to be interfering with my life.

Yes, lets not worry about goverment extension. Lets not worry about it ever increasingly becomeing involved in our own personal lives. Its the USA goverment of course. Nothing can go wrong.

The men who swear an oath to uphold the constitution in those offices are only men. Its always been the ordinary citizen, the people who have the greatest influence on how they vote and act.

And goverment reach is now in your life. You are an open book. If you ever become big on the political scene, a protest or involved in something. They can read into all that data on you. Perhaps even blackmail you of past comments and other things. To think this cant happen shows shockingly incredible trust in the instutuions of goverment today.

Lets just keep our heads in the dirt for 10 more years. Surely the dangers to our security will be over and these big brother laws revoked.

[Guest]

Sad but true. I have not time, energy or inclination to worry about every possible wrongdoing in the government, especially if it doesn't seem to be interfering with my life.

That's the thing though... it may not be interfering with yours but it may be interfering with somebody else's. In these US of A, all of you are in the same boat. And the only way you can effect change is to at least be AWARE of it and at least have a basic understanding of the issues so you know what to do when you exercise your vote.

It's this same exact sentiment that gets pit bulls and pet snakes banned. You don't have a pit bull and you hate snakes so it doesn't really matter to you that pit bull enthusiasts and snake enthusiasts have been unfairly targetted by idiotic laws. So what do you care. Unfortunately, those that DO get interference in their lives are too few to matter... until the day comes when your cute-and-cuddly-fido gets banned...

What's even more disturbing is people's disinterest in Constitutional violations because "it doesn't affect me". It should matter even if you're not a direct target. On principle. As an American.

(I don't mean you as in you, carlimac. I mean you in general).

[carlimac]

Well for one thing, I do think pit bulls should be banned. They kill people. And no I don't like snakes- will never own one and the only person I know who did own one was one of the weirdest persons I've run into.

That aside, I ( as in me personally) am vaguely aware of all this govt. cr** going on. Obamacare? NO ONE understands it. Benghazi? Something went afoul but it does me no good obssessing aobut it. NSA snoopers? I have nothing to hide. I'd have to go to school taking political science, law and civics classes for the rest of my life to understand it all. So if I'm spending all this time trying to inform myself of government misdeeds, when am I going to get my Relief Society meeting planned and prepared for, cook dinner, read scriptures, do mountains of laundry, clean the house, plant, weed and harvest my garden, serve my neighbor, tend my grandchildren, play with and talk to my kids, do temple and genealogy work, get prepared for an earthquake, exercise, sleep, take a shower, etc. In otherwords, there is more to life than govt. conspiracies and I prefer to LIVE my life rather than missing out on life by worrying about all this stuff that I can't do anything about anyway. If my govt. drags me out of my house and locks me up for something I'm not guilty of, we'll deal with it then. If my govt. takes away all my freedoms, my money, my privacy (which I think is highly unlikely) THOSE persons enforcing these laws wrongfully will pay the ultimate price. If that's sticking my head in the sand, so be it.

I do try to vote my concience, listen to conservative radio in the car sometimes, watch FOX now and then, read up on the Drudge report. And I don't really know if I'm more informed that I would be otherwise. One thing is for sure, I'm not any happier or full of peace after listening to and reading all of this. I don't think our Father in Heaven would have us become so entrenched in govt. conspiracy that we miss out on life.

Edited June 13, 2013 by carlimac

[estradling75]

Lets spin this another way... Some day soon the term Christian could equal terrorist in the eyes of the Government. So some day soon the Government could try to put all suspected 'terrorists' in some kind of jail or relocation camp.

On that day I think many here will protest such an action. Problem is that on that day it will be to late to protest.. The foundation would have already been laid... Laid while we were to busy not being bothered because it didn't affect us.

[carlimac]

Lets spin this another way... Some day soon the term Christian could equal terrorist in the eyes of the Government. So some day soon the Government could try to put all suspected 'terrorists' in some kind of jail or relocation camp.

On that day I think many here will protest such an action. Problem is that on that day it will be to late to protest.. The foundation would have already been laid... Laid while we were to busy not being bothered because it didn't affect us.

So what action would you take TODAY to prevent that from happening?

[Guest]

Well for one thing, I do think pit bulls should be banned. They kill people. And no I don't like snakes- will never own one and the only person I know who did own one was one of the weirdest persons I've run into.

That aside, I ( as in me personally) am vaguely aware of all this govt. cr** going on. Obamacare? NO ONE understands it. Benghazi? Something went afoul but it does me no good obssessing aobut it. NSA snoopers? I have nothing to hide. I'd have to go to school taking political science, law and civics classes for the rest of my life to understand it all. So if I'm spending all this time trying to inform myself of government misdeeds, when am I going to get my Relief Society meeting planned and prepared for, cook dinner, read scriptures, do mountains of laundry, clean the house, plant, weed and harvest my garden, serve my neighbor, tend my grandchildren, play with and talk to my kids, do temple and genealogy work, get prepared for an earthquake, exercise, sleep, take a shower, etc. In otherwords, there is more to life than govt. conspiracies and I prefer to LIVE my life rather than missing out on life by worrying about all this stuff that I can't do anything about anyway. If my govt. drags me out of my house and locks me up for something I'm not guilty of, we'll deal with it then. If my govt. takes away all my freedoms, my money, my privacy (which I think is highly unlikely) THOSE persons enforcing these laws wrongfully will pay the ultimate price. If that's sticking my head in the sand, so be it.

I do try to vote my concience, listen to conservative radio in the car sometimes, watch FOX now and then, read up on the Drudge report. And I don't really know if I'm more informed that I would be otherwise. One thing is for sure, I'm not any happier or full of peace after listening to and reading all of this. I don't think our Father in Heaven would have us become so entrenched in govt. conspiracy that we miss out on life.

I understand exactly what you're saying here (no not the pit bull - more on that later). But civic participation is not just a privilege in American social structure - it is a duty - even impressed upon by LDS Church leaders. So, of equal importance to Relief Society calling is one's calling as an American citizen in the government of the country to which the LDS Church is subject to.

Now, there are conspiracy theories and there are factual government activities. It can be difficult to determine one from the other. But, it really is no different from the study of the Book of Mormon. Because you study it daily, you can tell by instinct when one spouts crazy teachings about the Book of Mormon and can be easily dismissed. And you can tell by instinct which questionable teaching requires a bit more digging. Government is no different.

For example - pit bulls. If one spends just a little bit of study on pit bulls outside of sensational news stories, one will find that pit bulls don't kill people for no reason. The german sheperd is capable of killing just as much as a pit bull. Yet german shepherds are known as the "good guys" because the movies usually show them as K9 cops whereas pit bulls are the "bad guys" because when you hear of some kid getting ripped apart by a dog, it's usually a pit bull... With zero scratching beyond the surface on why that pit bull killed that kid, you'll never see that pit bulls get the bad rap because these people get pit bulls so they can have a mean dog... so they teach it to be one.

So here you are - a voter... instead of solving the problem (reducing the number of people training dogs to be killers or puts dogs in abusive situations), you ban pit bulls which does not solve the problem, it merely puts those who have fought so hard to redeem the breed into a more difficult position, and cementing the breed's reputation to make it the #1 breed of choice for illegal dog fighters. And such is YOUR power as a misinformed voter.

[estradling75]

So what action would you take TODAY to prevent that from happening?

Don't sit on your hands when you see the government over reaching in an area just because it 'doesn't affect you..' It can and will if people do nothing to stop it...

Here is a poem that sums up the idea... (insert your own choice of groups)

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Guest]

So what action would you take TODAY to prevent that from happening?

For one, I will not have the philosophy that because it doesn't affect me, I could care less about it. I decide what to care about by weeding out the noise of sensational news stories and deciding which part of this story is real and bounce it against my rights afforded in the Constitution and my moral compass.

And lds.net is great at keeping our ears to the ground because someone on this forum usually posts what's happening out there and a bunch of others who have some info on it comments. You can even just pay a passing glance at debates happening around it on this forum, bounce it with what you hear from your own reliable news sources and see what you can conclude. And when an action is imminent, you can get your voice heard and counted because you know something about it more than just what some questionable media or conspiracy theorist says.

By the way, I admit, I'm doing this same thing for Church-related stuff like the debate going on between JAG and Skippy on blacks and the priesthood... I've done quite a bit of research on it prior to my conversion but JAG and Skippy's little debate has opened some new avenues of learning for me.

Edited June 13, 2013 by anatess

[Traveler]

I agree that in our day and age the government needs to keep some secrets as do we all. For example I have a number of bank accounts that I can connect through the internet so I have account #, login and other information that I keep secret. But I do not keep secret the fact that I have such things.

I feel this way about government transparency. I have reservations about the government maintaining records on citizens. But I understand the advantage these records have when used properly. I also understand that any database can be hacked or abused and that troubles me.

The internet was not designed to be safe - it was designed as a means to move data. The point is that if a knowledgeable person can be placed behind a firewall there is no such thing as security. Any advantage such data gives our government to make us safe can be turned against us by the critical placement of just one terrorists. And history indicates that possibility should never be left unconsidered. I do not like the idea of so many eggs being in that basket. This is outside of any intentional abuse of power within the government and those sworn to protect us. Recent history demonstrates that abuse of power (within the IRS for example) is more likely than sabotage by foreign terrorists.

My understanding from my studies of the Latter Day Scriptures specific to our dispensation is that inside abuses of power is by far the greater threat than is even war. But more than my concerns for abuses by individuals within our government - I am concerned with the apathy of individuals. At the least we all should be writing our congressmen, willing to campaign against anyone elected more concerned with party politics than rights and safety of citizens.

I do not believe we have sufficient insights into what our government power brokers agenda is. I believe we need more transparency - not less as currently being argued. The problem with abuse in government is what King Benjamin warned - removing someone that abuses power and those that support such abuse for political reasons comes only by the spilling of much blood. The most devastating war in American history is the one we fought against ourselves.

The Traveler

[carlimac]

Don't sit on your hands when you see the government over reaching in an area just because it 'doesn't affect you..' It can and will if people do nothing to stop it...

Here is a poem that sums up the idea... (insert your own choice of groups)

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

That's a nice sentiment but it doesn't tell me what you'd do. Speak out where, how, to whom?

[Still_Small_Voice]

That's a nice sentiment but it doesn't tell me what you'd do. Speak out where, how, to whom?

Call your Representative in the House and both of your Senators. Tell them this:

I am very concerned about the activities of National Security Agency during the past several years. They are gathering large amounts of data on the common American citizens’ phone calls, e-mails and Internet activities.

This really raises a red flag of alarm for me. We have a right to be secure in our persons, houses, and papers, against unreasonable searches and seizures. The National Security Agency is searching and seizing data about our personal lives without our consent. There is no probable cause for this type of behavior on the general American public.

I urge you to support action against the National Security Agency. Defund these outrageous activities and use legislation to overturn this abuse of power. Support the Constitution, liberty and our rights as Americans.

[estradling75]

That's a nice sentiment but it doesn't tell me what you'd do. Speak out where, how, to whom?

Do your civic duty...

We live in a representative democracy... So contact your representatives and let them know that this is not right and that you expect them to do something about it. Then when it comes time to vote if you feel they don't represent you then vote to kick them out.

Its not that hard and if enough people do it we can get this fixed. But if people think it isn't their problem then nothing will change

[MorningStar]

I contacted my reps. Whether it affects me or not, I should fight for other Americans! I'm treating this situation like a cancer - don't let it continue to grow until it's too late.

[carlimac]

The thing is, like I said, I don't understand govt. well enough (does anyone?) to offer any suggestions of what I'd want done. The NSA scandal is too invasive, or it's being abused by workers just wanting to spy for fun. But there needs to be some kind of surveillance to keep our country safe. I have no idea what that would entail.

Govt. programs have become so complicated with loopholes and twists and tangles that I don't think anyone understands them.

[yjacket]

The thing is, like I said, I don't understand govt. well enough (does anyone?) to offer any suggestions of what I'd want done. The NSA scandal is too invasive, or it's being abused by workers just wanting to spy for fun. But there needs to be some kind of surveillance to keep our country safe. I have no idea what that would entail.

Govt. programs have become so complicated with loopholes and twists and tangles that I don't think anyone understands them.

Actually yes, I do understand government. Part of the obligation and duty of every citizen who votes is to understand government, understand what the individuals who they have elected are doing, to understand if those elected officials are carrying out their responsibilities appropriately.

You just made a very good case for restrictive voting. If one does not care enough to invest the time and energy into understanding the choices that their elected representatives make, that is fine . . . . then just don't vote at the ballot box. Low-information voters are the bane of a representative democracy . . .they are persuaded to vote one way or another based upon campaign slogans or who looks the best, who looks the most qualified, etc. Those who they elect understand this and are able to look/say/act one way while campaigning and then do something completely different in office.

You are right the NSA thing is too massive; but there does not need to be some kind of surveillance to keep us safe. Government programs are too complicated, but that is because they are too big.

Unfortunately, the big problem is a lack of education and understanding of what government is and what it should do. I'll break it down very simply.

1) Government is force!! It is the power to take one man and deprive him of his life (execution), his liberty (can put him in jail), his property (can tax).

2) The purpose of government is to protect life, liberty and property. The only time that government can deprive a man of life, liberty or property is when that man deprived another of life, liberty, or property.

Back to the question at hand . . . why should the government conduct surveillance on me? What evidence is there that I have deprived another of life, liberty, or property? If there is someone who claims that I have done so, then yes the government has the obligation to investigate such a claim. That is done through a search warrant.

However, if no one claims that I have deprived another of llp then an investigation into me is morally unjustified and wrong. Do I have the legal right to search my neighbor just because I feel like it? No that would be an invasion into his liberty and property. Just as much a governmental search into me without cause is an invasion of my liberty and property.

One thing I hate is the idea of "privacy", privacy comes about because of property. I have privacy in my home because I own my home. Companies (google, etc) have privacy because they own their networks. The government does not have the right to tap into their networks because they are violating the property rights of those companies. Governments do not have the right to tap into my e-mail account because they are violating the property rights of my e-mail account.

Back to surveillance and safety, part of the risk we take in being alive is that bad things will happen. It is a fact, and part of this life is to learn and to understand that people will die, people will commit horrible acts. Surveillance cannot and will not stop those things from happening.

Edited June 15, 2013 by yjacket

[Guest]

Back to surveillance and safety, part of the risk we take in being alive is that bad things will happen. It is a fact, and part of this life is to learn and to understand that people will die, people will commit horrible acts. Surveillance cannot and will not stop those things from happening.

This is the culture that has led to a lot of American bloated government. People would rather give up dignity for perceived safety. People are just fine with the govt swiping their crotch at the airport because they're scared of getting blown up by terrorists. What's an email account compared to that?

[carlimac]

Back to surveillance and safety, part of the risk we take in being alive is that bad things will happen. It is a fact, and part of this life is to learn and to understand that people will die, people will commit horrible acts. Surveillance cannot and will not stop those things from happening.

Really?

Officials: NSA surveillance programs helped foil terror plots in 20 countries | Fox News