Congratulate or ignore?

[skippy740]

So if marriage is more than sex, why couldn't a gay person have that relationship with the opposite gender?

Because that's not the premise behind this thread. :)

We are not questioning their motives or their (un)righteous choices in this example. We are talking about how WE would respond to someone announcing and presumably inviting us to attend a same-sex wedding/marriage and reception.

So, let's keep the focus on US and how WE would react and respond... than telling everyone else how they should be living their lives.

[skalenfehl]

I can certainly respect PC's stance as well. He is a shepherd in his church and a light to many. I am sure he is charitable towards all. I don't know any LDS who spend time visiting people in prison, which our Savior specifically admonished his saints to do, besides visiting the sick and afflicted.

[talisyn]

Buy a silver picture frame, wrap it in pretty wrapping paper with a card to the happy couple, and continue to be a good example of righteous living

[jerome1232]

I don't know any LDS who spend time visiting people in prison, which our Savior specifically admonished his saints to do, besides visiting the sick and afflicted.

My old stake has a ward in it's local prison.

(not to veer the thread off topic)

[carlimac]

Because that's not the premise behind this thread. :)

We are not questioning their motives or their (un)righteous choices in this example. We are talking about how WE would respond to someone announcing and presumably inviting us to attend a same-sex wedding/marriage and reception.

So, let's keep the focus on US and how WE would react and respond... than telling everyone else how they should be living their lives.

Ok! I'd be pretty vague and definitely not ebullient. Not sure I'd attend the wedding. I'd find some excuse.

[Lakumi]

Ok! I'd be pretty vague and definitely not ebullient. Not sure I'd attend the wedding. I'd find some excuse.

weddings in general are pretty dull, I usually weasel out of them... mine'll have a pirate ship... I pity whomever marries me:lol:

[MarginOfError]

If I am understanding this correctly, we should smile and say "congratulations on the happiness you have found in your sexual immorality," to avoid social negativity?

If it helps at all, I would suggest that there's a proper time and context to talk with your homosexual friends about your views on sexual immorality, same sex marriage, etc. But I don't think that the announcement that they are getting married is the appropriate time to do that.

I have nothing against telling a friend that you find homosexual marriage to be contrary to God's will. I just don't think it is kind or appropriate to hit them with that upon the announcement of their engagement.

[mnn727]

I don't see sin as a Terrestial/Telestail/Outer darkness choice. It's rebellion against God, or ignorance at best. Really, I'm supposed to congratulate this?

Many things mankind does is rebellion against God.

While I understand you don't believe in the whole "Terrestrial/Telestail/Outer darkness" idea, however the majority of people on this board do.

I take it you've never had a close friend or family member that was gay -- it mellows your outlook.

[mnn727]

I don't know any LDS who spend time visiting people in prison, which our Savior specifically admonished his saints to do

Skalenfehl, nice to meet you, now you know someone, as my favorite all time calling was teaching a Sunday School class in the local prison.

[prisonchaplain]

Marriage is more than just having a sexual relationship with your spouse. Marriage is being a team, marriage is companionship, marriage is growing old together, marriage is laughing and dreaming together, marriage is being friends, marriage is fighting and learning from it, marriage is loving someone who also loves you.

M.

That's what it can be. What it should be. In this case: God. Said. No. Then the couple defy God (or ignore Him...or are ignorant of Him). Now, I am asked to congratulate this? Bless it?

[prisonchaplain]

If it helps at all, I would suggest that there's a proper time and context to talk with your homosexual friends about your views on sexual immorality, same sex marriage, etc. But I don't think that the announcement that they are getting married is the appropriate time to do that.

I have nothing against telling a friend that you find homosexual marriage to be contrary to God's will. I just don't think it is kind or appropriate to hit them with that upon the announcement of their engagement.

The situation presented is in the OP. I've probably repeated a half dozen times in this thread that I would not encourage scowling, tsk tsking, debate, or even outward expression of my reservations. Yet, when I hesitate to "congratulate" I have been repeated that same half dozen times that his is not the time for DISCUSSING sexual morality.

If I ever wanted a definition for being between a rock and a hard place I now have it: Tell a sincere Christian/Muslim/Orthodox Jew that your about to be married to a partner of the same sex, and look at them for an expected congratulations.

[prisonchaplain]

Many things mankind does is rebellion against God.

While I understand you don't believe in the whole "Terrestrial/Telestail/Outer darkness" idea, however the majority of people on this board do.

I take it you've never had a close friend or family member that was gay -- it mellows your outlook.

My point about the kingdoms of heaven was that our choices are not shades of where we are bound. They are sin or godly. I used that reference to contextualize for this board. For example, I'm not going to give 5% of my income to God and call it a telestial decision. If I am convicted to give 10%, my 5% is sin. That's all I meant.

I've had a few inmates come out to me. They were quick to say the knew the Bible passages opposing homosexual practice. I tried to discern what they were seeking. Often I would give them some intelligent resources that both affirmed their direction and counseled against it. Then I would encourage them to seek God's direction and his best.

Hey, I know lots of alcoholics...it hasn't mellowed my outlook on alcohol much.

[Anddenex]

I take it you've never had a close friend or family member that was gay -- it mellows your outlook.

Not necessarily.

[Anddenex]

I am reminded of the relationship between father and son in the LDS film, Testaments. The son had aspirations and desires to apprentice with Kohor and wanted his father's approval. His father could not approve, but he did express happiness for his son, though he knew that his son's happiness would only be temporary.

I was also about to make a comment previously regarding the "Testament" video and I find our unique look regarding the father and son's experience enlightening but in a different view.

The father expressed, "I am happy that you are happy, but where you want to go I can not be your father" (last part I think paraphrased a bit).

Note, in the movie the father expressed his happiness for his son after the son said something to this nature, "Why aren't you happy for me father...?"

The son therefore recognized the sorrow within the father and felt the father's disappointment and disapproval with his actions. Rightly so, he was starting to feel his way to the great and spacious building, Babylon the Great which is falling.

The father then walked off, without congratulating his son on his monetary success and his personal choices in life in forsaking the gospel and its teachings. The son continued to recognize his father's disapproval and disappointment in his choices, and until the son repented, then he knew his decisions were wrong and why his father felt the way he did.

[Dravin]

The father expressed, "I am happy that you are happy, but where you want to go I can not be your father" (last part I think paraphrased a bit).

To unparaphrase the exchange:

Jacob: I am your friend. Is this not the blessing of God? Why are you not happy for me?!

Helam: I am happy for you because you are happy, but I am sad because your happiness cannot last. In your new kingdom I cannot be your father, but wherever you go, you will always be my son.

[skalenfehl]

Anddex, you said it better than me. Thank you for taking the time to share this. I am also learning by experience that it isn't charitable of me to share or expound things beyond that which people generally can or are willing to accept (Alma to Zeezrom). We all have a certain degree of light within us and it grows or diminishes based on the heed we give to it. Likewise, it is also uncharitable of me to not to share or expound things to someone who is more than ready and willing to accept it. And sometimes, as in your example, it is returned with greater light. And we are edified. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment.

[Maureen]

That's what it can be. What it should be. In this case: God. Said. No. Then the couple defy God (or ignore Him...or are ignorant of Him). Now, I am asked to congratulate this? Bless it?

You're not commanded to congratulate, but you are given the choice if you wish to congratulate. I think the posters that are willing to congratulate are doing so because they are willing to see a bigger picture in someone's happiness and not just focusing on the smaller picture on how a small part of this person's life does not morally agree with the person offering the well wishes.

I understand PC why you would not congratulate someone's choices if their morality or standards do not agree with yours. That's fair and that's your right to follow your conscience. Other posters, including myself, are just trying to see where you are coming from in how you determine why you would not congratulate.

M.

[carlimac]

I think the posters that are willing to congratulate are doing so because they are willing to see a bigger picture in someone's happiness and not just focusing on the smaller picture on how a small part of this person's life does not morally agree with the person offering the well wishes.

M.

Describe the "bigger picture" the way you see it. I always thought the bigger view included eternal consequences. Not just immediate gratification in this life.

[jerome1232]

Yeah, I agree with carlimac, smaller picture is their immediate gratification in sin, bigger picture would be eternal perspective.

It's easy to flip this one around, would you expect an atheist who hates religion and theism in general to attend your baptism? Do we as LDS expect non-members that believe we as LDS are all in sin to wait outside the temple while we get sealed? Would you look down on refusal to attend in those circumstances?

[Maureen]

Describe the "bigger picture" the way you see it. I always thought the bigger view included eternal consequences. Not just immediate gratification in this life.

The bigger picture for me is that whether you are gay or straight you are a human being. We all have similar dreams, to have a family, to have someone to care about, love, plan our life with. Sex is a small part of being human, it is not everything.

M.

[Blackmarch]

It is hard, because these folks may be following their consciences, and honestly believe what they are doing is rooted in love and goodness. And yet, we consider it sin.

I won't congratulate a friend who is consummating a relationship that I consider to be sin. Should I be expected to? Where's the tolerance for my sense of morality?

If you feel they are happy, that they are not bound by our sense of morality, and so you can congratulate them (bless???)--then do so. I wouldn't though.

I don't think I would be able to offer congratulations myself either, but I would wish them the best of luck.

[dahlia]

I think that one of the issues for me is that even people who know diddly about Mormons, will think that Mormons are 'against' homosexuality.

I call telling people I'm LDS 'coming out,' just like the gays, maybe because I think it can be hazardous. If I hold all of my colleagues I'd converted, some are bound to think I'm some kind of Bible thumper when it comes to gays, and I'm not. So, I don't tell everyone.

One of my best friends from school is also gay. Thanks to the wonder of FaceBook, we talk a couple of times a week, and have shared a lot with each other over the years. When I was newly baptized, we attended a conference together. I wanted to tell him what I'd done, but I also didn't want him to think I hated him because he was gay. I prefaced my 'coming out' by telling him that I loved him and that nothing I did was going to change that. Then I told him I was Mormon. One of the saving graces with dealing with him was that he was a religious studies undergrad and had an appreciation for religion in general and we could talk about my changes from an academic perspective.

Anyway, that's kind of a problem I have - if you tell someone in the openly gay, very liberal, environment of academe, that you are Mormon, the first thought of many people is that you hate gays. It's a problem. And no, I don't consider what they are doing as 'wickedness.' My goodness, how judgmental! I don't think I know any wicked gays and I have known quite a few who struggle to maintain a religious life in belief systems that don't welcome them.

[Windseeker]

I would congratulate them. Having lived with homosexuals I can say it honestly, as I view a committed relationship better than a non-committed one even if they are sinning. I view it as simple politeness; if we are friends they already know my stance.

Example of some things I probably wouldn’t congratulate-

Worlds Record title such as fattest, most tattooed, most cigarettes smoked, most divorces etc... Landing employment as a stripper or recent success as a drug dealer or successful bank robbery. I think you get the idea.

[Lakumi]

I think that one of the issues for me is that even people who know diddly about Mormons, will think that Mormons are 'against' homosexuality.

I call telling people I'm LDS 'coming out,' just like the gays, maybe because I think it can be hazardous. If I hold all of my colleagues I'd converted, some are bound to think I'm some kind of Bible thumper when it comes to gays, and I'm not. So, I don't tell everyone.

One of my best friends from school is also gay. Thanks to the wonder of FaceBook, we talk a couple of times a week, and have shared a lot with each other over the years. When I was newly baptized, we attended a conference together. I wanted to tell him what I'd done, but I also didn't want him to think I hated him because he was gay. I prefaced my 'coming out' by telling him that I loved him and that nothing I did was going to change that. Then I told him I was Mormon. One of the saving graces with dealing with him was that he was a religious studies undergrad and had an appreciation for religion in general and we could talk about my changes from an academic perspective.

Anyway, that's kind of a problem I have - if you tell someone in the openly gay, very liberal, environment of academe, that you are Mormon, the first thought of many people is that you hate gays. It's a problem. And no, I don't consider what they are doing as 'wickedness.' My goodness, how judgmental! I don't think I know any wicked gays and I have known quite a few who struggle to maintain a religious life in belief systems that don't welcome them.

yeah, that is one of my fears from going to an LDS church and perhaps getting converted. I have a lot of gay and atheist friends... Those are conversations I don't want to have lol Religion is not exactly a positive topic in our conversation circles

[prisonchaplain]

The bigger picture for me is that whether you are gay or straight you are a human being. We all have similar dreams, to have a family, to have someone to care about, love, plan our life with. Sex is a small part of being human, it is not everything.

M.

I perceive that same-sex couples want public approval. Since most churches do not, this is coming to a head. It's going to get uglier. I cannot give approval. I really want to be nice and to be able to just smile and say something non-descript, but positive. However, I really see this turning into a battle. It's going to become, "If you are not for me and my ways, you are my enemy." I hope not...but I see lines being drawn in the sand.

I grieve for my country and our culture. All I can do is stay close to God, and be true to him and his word. I won't look for trouble, but if put in the corner and required to choose, I will declare, "Thus says the Lord..."