Do you believe every word of the scriptures?

[tovarisch]

I preface these questions by saying that I am an investigator (a title I don't love, but it is what it is), and that I've found the vast majority of what I've read in the Book of Mormon, especially

• Mosiah 18: Baptism is not only entering a covenant, it's entering a community where we help one another
• Alma 32: A beautiful explanation that faith can begin with desire and then grow into true faith
• 4 Nephi: I found this book absolutely heartbreaking

As you well know, the Book of Mormon has many anachronisms in it: steel, coins, elephants, horses, etc. that are not easily explained away.

To my mind, the best that I can do is say that Joseph Smith wasn't translating the plates as we would translate a letter or book. He was translating the plates through divine guidance, and God gave words and descriptions that Joseph would understand. Thus the history may be real, but some of the elements are what worked for Joseph to understand and write.

You can well imagine what the cynical view is.

Here's where it gets complicated. I absolutely love the focus on family and eternity. I love the emphasis on clean living and monthly fasting. When I pray, I believe that I receive positive answers, but I can't kick the fact that there are major anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, and the apologetics for these are generally pretty weak.

Here's my question for faithful LDS readers: Do you believe every word that's written, including horses, steel, chariots, elephants, coins? (I haven't gotten through D&C or the Pearl of Great Price, but I've already read a lot of criticism about the Book of Abraham.) Stated otherwise, is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?

[Dravin]

As you well know, the Book of Mormon has many anachronisms in it: steel, coins, elephants, horses, etc. that are not easily explained away.

A point, the Book of Mormon does not contain coins, that is to say they are not mentioned in the text. The word coinage is used in older edition's Alma 11 chapter heading but those are given for the benefit of the reader, they are not part of the translation.

[tovarisch]

Point taken.

[Dravin]

Point taken.

Of course this doesn't resolve horses, elephants, and steel. So your general question is still valid.

[tovarisch]

Thanks. Mostly I want to know that I'm not alone in wanting to believe (or, dare I say, believing) but having problem with certain issues.

[drham3rd]

You can ask the same questions about the Bible...etc. In fact, most any written word contains parts one can get into mental arguments about. The point of scriptures is reading with faith and open mind and humble spirit! You need those attributes to really understand what the Lord is telling you when you read. As I was reading the Book of Mormon as an investigator, what told me that it is true is its paralles to the Bible! Since it is the history of a tribe of Israel that came to this side of the world, its important to realize how closely the experiences in the BOM are so in tune with those recorded in the Old Testament!

Ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit and you will find a very rich set of scriptures. Good luck and may God lead you where you are meant to go!

[Just_A_Guy]

Here's my question for faithful LDS readers: Do you believe every word that's written, including horses, steel, chariots, elephants, coins? (I haven't gotten through D&C or the Pearl of Great Price, but I've already read a lot of criticism about the Book of Abraham.) Stated otherwise, is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?

I believe that the authors of the Book of Mormon were familiar with items which could best be described, by an uneducated twenty-five-year-old rural farm boy in 1830s America, as "horses, steel, chariots, elephants", etc. The degree to which those words actually fit the object being described, I think, is anyone's guess at present. For all I know, a "chariot" could be a travois and a "horse" could be an alpaca.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[TalkativeIntrovert]

Stated otherwise, is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?

This is me.

I have received strong personal revelation that the Mormon church is the closest church to being as God wants it. I love being part of the church and the programs, I love most of the people involved in the church and respect them as good people. I believe the standards set for members is very high and a great place to aim for. The world would be a better place if everyone had the same high standards as a goal.

However, I have also received revelation about certain elements being wrong. There are things that I believe are not inspired of God but have come about by man. I have sat in a room, during sacred times, and had a voice not talking quietly, but screaming at me that it was all wrong (the specific scenario, not the church as a whole)

I have weighed up the seemingly contradictory things and have concluded that it is wrong for me to deny what has been revealed to me as being true. So I choose to ignore the other things and have faith that they will work themselves out in the eternities - one way or another.

I have told my husband, recently, about the "wrong", he suggested talking to Bishop, which I did. I haven't spoken to anyone else as it is relevant only to me. It is what it is.

[Jenamarie]

As far as animals go, I don't necessarily think they're the exact animals mentioned, but perhaps animals that had a similar appearance and/or purpose. Perhaps the horses were actually llamas? I mean, I don't think I've ever looked at a hippopotamus and thought it looked anything like a horse, and yet that's what it's name means: "water horse". Some Greek explorer saw it and DID think it looked like a horse, and gave it that name. Perhaps that's the situation with the "horse" mentioned in the Book of Mormon as well.

[Ankh]

Greetings drham3rd,

... As I was reading the Book of Mormon as an investigator, what told me that it is true is its paralles to the Bible! Since it is the history of a tribe of Israel that came to this side of the world, its important to realize how closely the experiences in the BOM are so in tune with those recorded in the Old Testament!

AMEN! I have the same testimony. When I began to read the Book of Mormon for the first time (1997), the Spirit bore witness almost immediately to its parallels in the Bible.

========================================================

Tovarisch, as to your question, "...is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?" My heart-felt advice would be what Alma said in 32:21, "...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things..."

God bless you both.

Ankh

[SanctitasDeo]

Thanks. Mostly I want to know that I'm not alone in wanting to believe (or, dare I say, believing) but having problem with certain issues.

When I was a teenager (I grew up in the church), I worried about this exact thing. I thought all the adults around me knew that everything was true, and I was the only one who doubted. Oddly enough, just discovering that other people also doubted did a lot for me in terms of my ability to believe.

Do I know everything is true now? No. Are there still things I doubt or that cause me to think? Of course. But due to the experiences I have had, I feel like I know God, that I work with him daily to help my family and the other people around me and to grow spiritually.

I know that doesn't say anything about anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. But my belief is based first on my relationship with God. As far as the Book of Mormon goes, I feel similar about it as I do about the Bible. Despite any inaccuracies or anachronisms (which the Bible also seems to have), I feel like God uses them to speak to me.

That being said, I have never had much of a problem believing in the historicity of either book. Nephi seems like a real person to me. Steel and concrete all existed in one form or another, and words can be slippery things, anyway.

Those things don't stand as obstacles in the face of the things I have seen and felt. I am willing to put up with some uncertainties. If ye shall know them by their fruits, then, well, the fruits of the Gospel in my life have been great so far.

I also have a question: Your handle is Tovarisch--Are you Russian, or do you speak Russian?

[Quin]

I make the rent up some months by translating.

Oh sweet holy ___________.

Insert Tasmanian devil sounds here. And bleeding eyeballs. And decreasing sanity.

And I have GOOGLE!

And telephone contacts for the various cultures that are using idioms and descriptives that make no sense (This is so totally bicycle chicken! I'm simply chuffed. Micturating mangos. Crap you along. Rubber falsely. Nice gams.)

Just go to any Engrish or other mistranslation site and have fun! (This is my life many times a year. I couldn't do it full time or I'd go nuts).

OR to get more historically accurate. .. Go read the FIRST dictionary! Or read Australian explorers description of local fauna. Yowza. It reads like ancient mythology. Trying to explain animal A to people who have never seen it, or who have only seen similar, is a WILD experience. Try it, yourself. Describe a turtle without referencing ANY other misconstrued thing/creature but not being able to use reptile or amphibian. Pretty soon you're talking about a small green hairless cat with a rock on its back and no ears.

So I give full credit for doing one's best... And still screwing up.

AND

Yep. I believe rather a lot of it. (See above). Because there WERE horse-LIKE animals, and her were elephant-LIKE animals. And there were steel-LIKE metals (and woods, think iron-wood, and stones!, Think obsodian. In fact, early archeologists thought certain kinds of obsidian were fossilized lizard tongues or dragons teeth. No frame of reference in the EU for lava.)

As a scientist (especially one who has archeologist friends -notLDS- in mesoamerica & South America), I basically ask myself if something is POSSIBLE.

In every case I've come across in the BOM, the answer has been; Yep. Sho'nuff.

Q

[limpaini]

I can totally relate to these thoughts. I dealt with this when I was an investigator, and still do 8 years later. It all comes down to prayer and the confirmation I receive from the Spirit.

[tovarisch]

Thanks everyone for your responses, especially Changed for your explanation of heuristics (which is one of those things I've read a dozen times but never looked up) and Just_A_Guy for pointing out that a New York farmboy did as best he could given his background and education. I also like substituting obsidian for steel: What else would Joseph have though a short, black dagger was made of? Steel, most likely.

I read last night in one forum or book that Nibley wrote that archeology may never prove the Book of Mormon; archeology can only disprove history. Archeology hasn't done that, and if we take the tactic I'm reading here, and the one I'm inclined to take, we admit that Joseph wasn't perfect--no infallibility among Latter-day Saints--and wrote the most correct book, but that doesn't mean that its the most factual book.

For many years I was an atheist and read every new-atheist writer you know: Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett. Despite being a card-carrying atheist, I was drawn to belief (and I'll go so far to say that I was drawn specifically to LDS for many years). It's hard for me to set aside the "logical" formulas against belief, which to my mind are easy because they are simple and binary. I am having to reshape the belief structure I lost in my 20s to say, "I feel this, I pray this, and I don't know all of this."

It's a significant change, but it's very nice to see I'm not alone!

[BigRock]

I'm also researching the church and I also love the focus on family and and clean living. But I can't for the life of me accept all the unsubstantiated stuff in the Book of Mormon. I also have issues with some of the claims made by Joseph Smith such as he did more for the church than Christ himself.

I have studied the information on Mormon websites such as FAIR and MormonThink.com but the more I learn the more bizarre it gets. Can I be a Christian and a Mormon at the same time?

Your comments would be much appreciated.

[Dravin]

Can I be a Christian and a Mormon at the same time?

Considering Mormons are Christians, or at least should be if following the teachings of the Church, most assuredly. Your question, as phrased, is kinda like asking if one can live in the US and Pennsylvania at the same time (that is to say the latter is a subset of the former). If you meant something else you're going to need to rephrase your question.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Dravin

[pam]

I'm also researching the church and I also love the focus on family and and clean living. But I can't for the life of me accept all the unsubstantiated stuff in the Book of Mormon. I also have issues with some of the claims made by Joseph Smith such as he did more for the church than Christ himself.

I have studied the information on Mormon websites such as FAIR and MormonThink.com but the more I learn the more bizarre it gets. Can I be a Christian and a Mormon at the same time?

Your comments would be much appreciated.

For one thing, Joseph Smith NEVER said that he did more for the church than Christ himself. That comment was made by someone after Joseph Smith died. You can find this comment in the History of the Church. The last entries to that were made after his death. It was common in those days to write as if the person made the comments. When in fact it was made by those who highly admired Joseph Smith not Joseph Smith himself.

Joseph Smith/Narcissism/Did Joseph Smith 'boast' of keeping the Church intact - FAIRMormon

Edited September 2, 2013 by pam

[estradling75]

I'm also researching the church and I also love the focus on family and and clean living. But I can't for the life of me accept all the unsubstantiated stuff in the Book of Mormon. I also have issues with some of the claims made by Joseph Smith such as he did more for the church than Christ himself.

I have studied the information on Mormon websites such as FAIR and MormonThink.com but the more I learn the more bizarre it gets. Can I be a Christian and a Mormon at the same time?

Your comments would be much appreciated.

I am a Mormon... and I consider myself a Christian. All the Mormons I have ever met consider themselves Christians...

Do other Christian consider me a Christian? Well to be frank I do not care if they do or not.

Does Christ consider me a Christian? That is highly important. Which is why when people look into the LDS or Mormon faith they are encouraged to get on their knees and pray and ask God about the truthfulness of Book of Mormon and other teachings. I have my answer from God, you need to get yours.

Edited September 2, 2013 by estradling75

[skalenfehl]

Here's my question for faithful LDS readers: Do you believe every word that's written, including horses, steel, chariots, elephants, coins? (I haven't gotten through D&C or the Pearl of Great Price, but I've already read a lot of criticism about the Book of Abraham.) Stated otherwise, is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?

I don't believe everything in the scriptures. I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Book of Mormon prophets confessed to being imperfect and if there are any mistakes, they are mistakes of men. Pearl of Great Price is another thing, too. D&C is not without it's flaws (cough132cough).

All of that said, I believe the restoration happened. I have a testimony of Joseph Smith and of the Book of Mormon. I also know about things the Lord warned about in D&C concerning us, which Nephi and others obviously foresaw. I won't go into details. But we are all imperfect, fallible human beings doing our best. Our leaders are far from perfect, as they have also confessed. They do their best, too, I'm sure. All is NOT well in Zion. We have so much work to do. And it begins with me. If you have doubts, do your due diligence. Study. Research. There are books and journals and papers out that explain the warts and ugly things of the past. It has always been that way with the Lord's covenant people. We are no different. But we also know our potential.

[bytebear]

Of course this doesn't resolve horses, elephants, and steel. So your general question is still valid.

The bible mentions unicorns and the use of corn. Clearly the translation is using similarities where no equivalent word exists or where the meaning best fits the word in question.

[skalenfehl]

The bible mentions unicorns and the use of corn. Clearly the translation is using similarities where no equivalent word exists or where the meaning best fits the word in question.

The outnumbered people of Limhi fought the Lamanites like dragons. Mosiah 20:11 

Apparently they had dragons in the land of Nephi. Or maybe their concept of a dragon is different than that of Joseph Smith's or mine. There is so much that has not yet been uncovered, but that doesn't disprove anything. The Lord is not trying to get us to believe in Nephite money or metals or unicorns or dragons. Or elephants. There is a message there and a singular way to come to a knowledge of its truth.

[pam]

Personally I don't care if it mentions horses and elephants or even purple polka dotted unicorns. What I care about is whether I believe in the words of the ancient prophets. Can I learn from the lessons that the scriptures teach us? Do I believe that Christ appeared to the people of these lands? The answer is yes.

[Dravin]

The bible mentions unicorns and the use of corn.

Corn was, and can still be, used to refer to grain at the time the KJV was written it was not, as Americans use it, a synonym for maize. It is not an anachronism. As far as the bible mentioning unicorns, that just means it's a valid question to ask of it as well.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Dravin

[AngelMarvel]

Hi tovarisch! I'm not sure what your background is, are you familiar with using heuristics? I teach an intro to engineering class in which we discuss solutions to open ended complex problems which cannot be analytically solved (and I think religious beliefs fall into this category). To the dualist everything should be right/wrong or fact/fiction, but in higher thinking patterns where ambiguity is recognized as an unavoidable part of life - the heuristic replaces dualist thinking when solving problems and is a valid way of approaching subjects which cannot be proven one way or another.

Anyways, consider this:

Heuristic Decision Making by Gerd Gigerenzer, Wolfgang Gaissmaier :: SSRN

In other words, when confronted with a complex problem to which precise analytic solutions are impossible, it is perfectly fine (and even helpful) to ignore some of the smaller uncertain issues when coming to a final decision on how to act.

You know what the "scientific" method is? Well, here is the "engineering" method:

ERIC - Definition of the Engineering Method., 1985

Engineers deal with the real world - where exact solutions cannot be obtained, and their method uses heuristic analysis.... I think it is perfectly fine to use heuristic for religious decisions as well.

As a Mormon convert, I cannot explain how some of the details work out, but I am perfectly fine with my overall belief in the Book of Mormon. (Just like as an engineer, I do not always know how all of the details will work out, but at some point, you have to go and build it - be it a hydroelectric dam, or a newly designed car - it won't be a perfect solution, there is always a better car, or a better way to produce energy etc. etc. but you do the best you have with what you have - or you are stuck with nothing at all... better to do something than nothing... energy that messes up the fishing vs. no energy at all? Mormons believe there are many things that are "yet to be revealed" we don't know how it all works, or what all the details are - but what we do know (that God is real, the atonement is real, that God speaks to more than just the Jewish people, that families can be eternal, etc. etc.) is worth pursuing, - there is enough good stuff there to hold onto, that we can have faith that the fuzzy parts of it will one day fall into place too.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't have said it any better. Thanks for this great reply.

What we don't know here will one day be revealed to us beyond the veil.

Angel

[Finrock]

Good afternoon tovarisch,

Thanks for you last post. I appreciated those comments.

I see all of these anachronisms as simply either lacking substance or just lacking evidence at the moment. Of course this presupposes a position of faith. I don't think I'm alone or even uncritical, but I am one who never really doubted the veracity and truthfulness of the Book of Mormon while growing up. I felt the same way about the Bible, really. I just accepted that they were from God to the degree that I did. When I was very young (say 8 or 9) I wasn't really reading much from the Book of Mormon or Bible. If I was it was sporadic. However, when I got a bit older my family moved in to an area where there were more members of the Church and we became, at least to a degree (again), more active as a family and I became more active in the Church. Looking back I was always eager to be in Sunday school and to learn about the gospel. Also looking back I know a good portion of my desire to learn is attributed to vainglory. Meaning, I think I could pick up what was being taught easier than others and I've just always had different interest than most around me, and so I really enjoyed learning the material, but, I also very much enjoyed the attention and praise I would get in class because of my supposed "superior" understanding. This being the case, my motivations weren't exactly sincere. I wasn't striving to learn so that I could follow the precepts, but rather I was striving to learn so that I could get praise. Nonetheless, I didn't disbelieve either. I just had other priorities and wasn't myself truly getting what was being taught. There was an intellectual and factual knowledge but no substance, no true wisdom. I was not spiritually converted.

But, time goes on and thanks to great Sunday school teachers, bishops, home teachers, primary teachers, and others I was able to have religious or rather spiritual experiences where I felt the Holy Spirit while being taught, or when I heard others testify. Something pricked my heart enough that my basic acceptance and belief was turned in to a small seed of faith.

By the time I was old enough to serve a mission I had basically determined that I wanted to be what the LDS faith was directing me to be. Also, thanks to the good example of my brother (Vanhin, btw for all you old timers), I wanted to follow his footsteps and serve a mission like he did. So, I determined to do that. Armed with my small fledgling faith and my many weaknesses, I set out on my mission.

On my mission I began to read the Book of Mormon fervently. I loved the MTC. For me it was the spiritual boost I needed. If my faith was a fledgling plant, then the MTC was to my faith what premium fertilizer is to plants. Being in the MTC I felt the Spirit in powerful ways that made my faith concrete in respect to the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the scriptures. On my mission I read the Book of Mormon several times over. I understood it. I felt its power. I could not deny the feelings that I felt when I read from the book. I could not deny the thoughts that entered my mind as I read from the Book of Mormon that made me feel awe and joy. On my mission I was exposed to much anti-Mormon material. Even before then I had an uncle who would leave around his house Chick Tracts and so I knew some of the things we were accused of. But, on my mission I had to confront it head on and deal with it. As I learned new things and often negative things about the Church, I would wonder and question, but I would not allow myself to doubt because then I would have to deny experiences I knew that I had had. On my mission I would actually go to the libraries there with my companions and check out books on Masonics, early christianity, anti-Mormon literature, etc., so that I could understand all of these allegations against the Church and then be able to at least contend with them from a position of knowledge rather than blind ignorance. All of these experiences increased my testimony in the Book of Mormon. Despite anachronisms and other contentions against the Book of Mormon I simply cannot deny the spiritual experiences I have had on account of reading, studying, and applying the principles in the Book of Mormon.

To this day I continue to read and study out of the Book of Mormon. Over the years I have learned that much that was thought anachronistic turned out not to be. And many of the issues of the past have faded away as new evidence has surfaced. I believe in the Book of Mormon completely. I believe that all things will be made clear one day. The Book of Mormon is a true book. You can rely on it. You can live your life by its precepts and you will find joy. You will find Jesus Christ by applying what you read in the book.

Respectfully,

Finrock

Edited September 2, 2013 by Finrock
Spelling and grammar