I would advise people to stay away from Astral Projection

[Lakumi]

The daemon said that he would take me home

To the pale, shadowy land I half-recalled

As a high place of stair and terrace, walled

With marble balustrades that sky-winds comb,

While miles below a maze of dome on dome

And tower on tower beside a sea lies sprawled.

Once more, he told me, I would stand enthralled

On those old heights, and hear the far-off foam.

All this he promised, and through sunset's gate

He swept me, past the lapping lakes of Flame,

And red-gold thrones of gods without a name

Who shriek in fear at some impending fate

Then a black gulf with sea-sounds in the night"

"Here was your home," he mocked, "when you had sight!"

[NeuroTypical]

Just a reminder to folks who believe in this stuff - I'm inviting you to put your money where your mouth is.

Open Offer: If anyone wants to take me up on a little experiment, let me know. I will astrally project myself that night, to the reflecting pool next to temple square. I will be wearing a certain kind of shirt. Please, meet me there, and come back here tomorrow and tell me about the shirt I'm wearing.

Tonight is a mere 16 hours away - why not come have an astral meetup? I'll be the one wearing the shirt that sticks out. You won't be able to miss me.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Guest]

And I invite anyone else who wants to meet me in Boise at the vintage candy shop for an Astro meetup. But I will only agree to show up in the flesh, because that other stuff is silly.

[Martain]

lucid dreaming is harmless, since all it is, is you are almost awake (or almost asleep) and your mind still is active enough to control your imagination.

since most of my novels come from my untainted dreams I leave them alone

No, oh no no no no definitely no. I don't know if I can put into words how deeply I feel regarding this subject. Lucid dreaming is very much not harmless. Like Joseph and Pottifer's wife I warn all to run away from such as fast as possible.

Sincerley,

Brother M.

[ElectofGod]

Why would you run away from spiritual gifts?

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

These things are for those who are worthy of it, else than your right run away. :)

[Lakumi]

No, oh no no no no definitely no. I don't know if I can put into words how deeply I feel regarding this subject. Lucid dreaming is very much not harmless. Like Joseph and Pottifer's wife I warn all to run away from such as fast as possible.

Sincerley,

Brother M.

Why?

How is me making my dream like Superman 2 harmful?

I did not kneel before Zod

that was just a little humour but I am interested why?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Lakumi

[NeuroTypical]

So, on this thread, we've got the skeptical, the fearful, the boldly zealous, and everyone else.

Come one, come all - tonight - to the reflecting pool at temple square. Just after you all get in bed to fall asleep tonight - get yourself in the right frame of mind. Imagine yourself falling asleep, then astrally projecting yourself there. I'll be there, my fat goateed astrally-projected self, wearing a shirt so obvious, so loud, you just won't be able to miss me.

Then come on back here tomorrow and tell me about my shirt.

I mean, here's everyone's chance to make me less skeptical. I doubt you can change the minds of the fearful or bold.

[Lakumi]

So, on this thread, we've got the skeptical, the fearful, the boldly zealous, and everyone else.

Come one, come all - tonight - to the reflecting pool at temple square. Just after you all get in bed to fall asleep tonight - get yourself in the right frame of mind. Imagine yourself falling asleep, then astrally projecting yourself there. I'll be there, my fat goateed astrally-projected self, wearing a shirt so obvious, so loud, you just won't be able to miss me.

Then come on back here tomorrow and tell me about my shirt.

I mean, here's everyone's chance to make me less skeptical. I doubt you can change the minds of the fearful or bold.

I want my own tag, like "the expert"

[Finrock]

I don't know if its because I'm ignorant, a fool, lack faith, am arrogant, or what, but I don't fear any of this stuff. I'm a big ol' skeptic. Its all kind of hokey to me.

I believe God uses dreams and visions for the benefit of man. I believe God can whisk us away in spirit to places for His purposes. But, as far as being afraid of demons possessing my body and all of that, I'm just not afraid of that. Personally I believe most of the time these experiences are delusions, imaginations, or just a naturalistic phenomenon.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited September 11, 2013 by Finrock

[jerome1232]

I don't know if its because I'm ignorant, a fool, lack faith, am arrogant, or what, but I don't fear any of this stuff. I'm a big ol' skeptic. Its all kind of hokey to me.

I believe God uses dreams and visions for the benefit of man. I believe God can whisk us away in spirit to places for His purposes. But, as far as being afraid of demons possessing my body and all of that, I'm just not afraid of that. Personally I believe most of the time these experiences are delusions, imaginations, or just a naturalistic phenomenon.

Regards,

Finrock

I'm in the same pool.

[Quin]

Votes on shirt:

Pirate ruffles & paisley.

Burnt orange

None (eep!)

Black Hawaiian w tan vertical stripes

That doesn't count as a shirt if its connected to your pants all Star Trek style

[FunkyTown]

So, on this thread, we've got the skeptical, the fearful, the boldly zealous, and everyone else.

Come one, come all - tonight - to the reflecting pool at temple square. Just after you all get in bed to fall asleep tonight - get yourself in the right frame of mind. Imagine yourself falling asleep, then astrally projecting yourself there. I'll be there, my fat goateed astrally-projected self, wearing a shirt so obvious, so loud, you just won't be able to miss me.

Then come on back here tomorrow and tell me about my shirt.

I mean, here's everyone's chance to make me less skeptical. I doubt you can change the minds of the fearful or bold.

I agree with LM! Let's do this. There are so many people feeling so passionately about this that it's clear we can resolve it in one fell swoop.

Just go to Temple Square tonight and tell us what LM is wearing.

What time will you be there, LM? It'd be a fun way to pass a few hours: Just relaxing by temple square. Then, when they come on here and tell us what you were wearing, all the naysayers will be taught a lesson.

And there doesn't appear to be a live webcam streaming temple square, so this will probably be a very fair test.

It's similar to the test the UK is doing right now about out of body experiences. In the cardiac ward in many hospitals, above the operating table, there is a light. Above the light, there is a sign. Those who say they floated above their body would be able to see the sign and describe what's on it.

Simple and effective.

[NeuroTypical]

Ok, so did anyone make it to the meetup last night? Quin's suggestions are good for my next experiement, but none of them correctly describe what I was wearing last night.

I figure I was there somewhere between midnight and 5:30 AM, MST.

Anyone?

[TalkativeIntrovert]

This reminds me of a couple of "experiments" I did with a psychic believing friend when we were young (early teens).

We had been friends for many years and were very close. The first experiment involved her thinking very hard about an object and drawing it on a piece of paper, I then had to guess what it was. I knew she was cat mad, so I knew her first would probably be a cat - correct! I knew she loved sailing, so a boat - correct. I was able to also see some of the way she held her pen and her pen strokes. Next she tried objects in the room, I knew that because her eyes were looking around, rather than up. They settled in a chair - another correct answer.

Whenever she looked up, it was coming from her mind and I said the image wasn't coming through clearly and couldn't quite see! When she looked around it was something in the room and I could guess from the pen stroke. She was convinced that I was psychic.

Another time we were playing cards and she was sitting in the perfect position in front of a mirror. She held up a card and I guessed it every time - by seeing it in the mirror. After that one, I came clean on how I was doing this stuff :)

Recently I was with a cousin at a psychic fair that she organised. I was there to support her, not the rubbish going on around me. Anyway, one of those tv mediums was there and did a show. It was so vague it was ridiculous. He pointed to a part of the room and said "Is Janet over there" no-one replied, he said he had a message for Janet or Jan or Jane and not to be shy, no one answered. After a while of this he said "She must have gone home". With that I lost it, I had to leave as I was laughing so hard :) My cousin was still convinced he was talking to spirits.

Hopefully one of the Astral Projectors saw you last night LM and will report back.

[Guest]

One time when I was in high school, a cute boy made a crack about Mormonism to me. I jokingly told him he'd better watch it or I would curse him with my YW necklace. Then I pointed it at him and coincidentally, right at that moment, his nose started bleeding. It freaked him out a little. I couldn't stop laughing.

[beefche]

That is hilarious, Eowyn.

[Backroads]

Loudmouth, I so would have done that if I had seen the thread yesterday and hadn't been on the other side of state.

[NeuroTypical]

*sigh* So, nobody took me up on my offer?

I'm worried that if I post a pic of my shirt, someone will show up and say "Sorry I'm late - that was the exact shirt I saw you wearing! Hooray - astral projection works!"

Such things have happened before.

[Drpepper]

Loudmouth your crazy, but this thread sure has opened my eyes to something I had never even new was possible.

[FunkyTown]

Loudmouth your crazy, but this thread sure has opened my eyes to something I had never even new was possible.

Yes.

Loudmouth is the one who's crazy. Not the astral projection people who can travel the whole world but just won't do one simple, easily testable and verifiable thing.

Loudmouth. Loudmouth? You crazy, crazy man.

[Martain]

Why?

How is me making my dream like Superman 2 harmful?

I did not kneel before Zod

that was just a little humour but I am interested why?

I have an Lds friend who engaged heavily in lucid dreaming. His fantasy of choice was star wars and I listened as he shared how every night he would go to sleep and spend the night having elaborate adventures as a Jedi. He indicated how with him traveled a "very hot female alien" who acted as his partner in their quest to defeat the Sith.

Overtime he says their relationship changed and he began actively breaking the law of chastity in his lucid dreams with this female partner which over time escalated to being enticed to more than one partner at the same time.

His dreams were in essence a modern day rated R action/romance/sci-fi movie blockbuster every night for a long time. He shared how this of course began to manifest over time more and more into the waking world via pornography and masturbation and was threatening to escalate above that when in mercy the Lord gave him a wake up call.

He didn't share how the Lord made it known to him but he shared how the Lord revealed to him that these "characters" and "personages" within his dreams were not "figments of his own imagination" but evil spirits who had taken over his dreams and inserted themselves within them.

Have you ever encountered of beheld the visage of an evil spirit in their wrath at being denied what they desire or being frustrated in their efforts? Have you ever seen the bitterness of hell? I hope you never do but Moses did and my friend has and so have I.

Moses 1

18 And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee. Depart hence, Satan.

19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.

20 And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.

21 And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.

22 And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.

I remember how solemn my friends face was as he told me that he had never experienced anything as terrifying as he did the wrath of this evil spirit when she discovered that he was no longer deceived by her and was now beginning the path to repentance and freedom from her whiles.

D&C 93

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

Whenever you actively or intentionally put yourself into a dream world where God does not exist or that functions on anything less than truth as described above, you put yourself in a position where you open up your dream to being manipulated by evil spirits who being consummate actors will role play the others roles within your dream as they then seek to guide you down to the slippery slopes unto hell.

Mormon Doctrine - Bruce R. McConkie - "Mind"

The sentient, conscious, and intelligent part of man - the part that perceives, feels, wills, and thinks - is called the mind. To those who rule an Omnipotent Creator out of their views, who suppose that all things exist by mere evolutionary chance, the mind of man is an inexplicable mystery. But to those who know about God and his eternal purposes, it is clear that the mind of man rests in the eternal spirit.

The mind was present with the pre-existent spirit; it will be present with the disembodied spirit in the sphere immediately following mortality. Man's intelligence is in his spirit and not in the natural or mortal body. Thus we find the Prophet speaking of "the mind or the intelligence which man possesses," and of using as synonymous terms, "the soul, the mind of man, the immortal spirit [i.e. the intelligence]."(Teachings, pp. 352-353.)

Not only that but intentional lucid dreaming weakens the bonds between the body and the spirit by intentionally striving to create a situation where the body is a sleep while the spirit or mind is awake.

Let me suffice it to say that the soul rending pain and horror that has come upon me in such states of awareness is not something I would wish upon anyone let alone desire to graphically describe.

All seemed fine with my friend so long as he was ignorant of who he was actually interacting with on a nightly basis. I can say the same as well and attest that once I knew the truth, subtlety was out of the picture and the gloves came off to where I then proceeded to be subject to demonic assaults such as would cause you to blanch if I had power to relate it.

While the Lord has and does send dreams and visions to his children, Satan is always quick to create his own counterfeit spiritual gift and lucid dreaming is his. Those who pursue the course to play with lucid dreaming are playing with fire beyond their understanding.

Now there are those who in reading this will not believe or who may even respond lightly to my story, that of my friend, or my warning but fools mock and they do it at their own risk.

I invite you to ask God in faith, in the name of his Only Begotten, our Savior Jesus Christ to show unto you as he has unto me and my friend the true nature of the beings you are cavorting with in your lucid dreams with the real intent that if such is so you sincerely want to know so as to cease being deceived.

Sincerely,

Frankly,

Brother M.

[NeuroTypical]

Have you ever encountered of beheld the visage of an evil spirit in their wrath at being denied what they desire or being frustrated in their efforts? Have you ever seen the bitterness of hell?

Actually, yes indeed, I once did have a very real, incredibly disturbing dream where I was doing wrong things, and lucifer appeared. The more I continued doing these things, the more present, the more real, the more "there" he became. His presence was initially known by just a dark feeling, but eventually he was fully visible. It was horrifying. I woke up drenched in sweat, my wife told me I had been struggling and screaming in my sleep. I was nervous and on edge for days.

I remember how solemn my friends face was as he told me that he had never experienced anything as terrifying as he did the wrath of this evil spirit

My most vivid and overpowering emotional experiences have been through dreams. And I've had other dreams just as vivid and real. I once dreamt that Jupiter left it's orbit and Earth crashed into it. At the end, gravity on earth suddenly changed, and I heard a sound that can only be described as "Every tire on every car in the world suddenly popping and the air escaping, only to be dragged to the ground by it's own weight".

I've dreamt about sinking in the titanic, and nuclear war, and what it feels like to be a dying puppy. I've dreamt an entire rich lifetime of an alien who decided to walk among us humans and experience what we experience. I've dreamt that Hawkeye from MASH was shooting rockets at me with his hands. I've known the depths of terror, love, lust, joy, humor, sin, death, and life in dreams.

For whatever reason, my dreams are just sometimes accompanied by incredibly overpoweringly vivid emotions. But that's all they are - dreams. They don't control or define me - they only have the power I give them. They don't let in bad demons, only I can do that.

Not only that but intentional lucid dreaming weakens the bonds between the body and the spirit by intentionally striving to create a situation where the body is a sleep while the spirit or mind is awake.

You don't need lucid dreaming to let satan in to your life. Phooey.

I remain skeptical of the whole thing.

And, unlike most other people with strong opinions one way or the other on the issue, I have a clear open invitation to anyone who wishes to change my mind. Name the date, and I'll be there. Come back and tell me about my shirt. If you can accurately tell me what I was wearing, my opinion will spin on a dime.

[Lakumi]

As someone who did lucid dreaming as a neo pagan, obviously there was no law of chastity to me. I had my own R rated fantasy adventure I actually later wrote into a novel (though the novel changed from a dark R-rated fantasy as is a PG comedy-fantasy...funny how stories change)

Finally finished that novel, though think it could use some work...

I tend not to lucid dream anymore, my dreams often form the basis of my novel's idea's and I like to see what my mind can create on its own, rather then my awake assistance.

I have had some horrific dreams, not that I wanted them, but depression does things to people. There was something, I gave the name "Yokoshima" to (Japanese for Nightmare I believe) who was recurring in those dreams.

It was something that went on for many nights, various dreams linked in a chain to one another, I wrote it all down, but find it very hard to read.

I don't believe in spirits or demons possessing you, I have read and done all sorts of occult things, and people like to make it into something its not.

In Wicca for example, there is no hell, there are no demons.

Last lucid dream I had I was playing yugioh with the duel discs and holograms (like the anime)...

For those who don't know, Yugioh is a card game.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Lakumi

[jerome1232]

Any Wheel of Time readers? This entire thread has me thinking of Tel'aran'rhiod, I wonder if this practice is where Robert Jordan got an idea for that place.

[Anddenex]

Not only that but intentional lucid dreaming weakens the bonds between the body and the spirit by intentionally striving to create a situation where the body is a sleep while the spirit or mind is awake.

This would fall under the realm of personal opinion. Sin weakens the spirit, not lucid dreaming.

While the Lord has and does send dreams and visions to his children, Satan is always quick to create his own counterfeit spiritual gift and lucid dreaming is his. Those who pursue the course to play with lucid dreaming are playing with fire beyond their understanding.

This also would fall under the realm of personal opinion. God is able to work through any form of dreaming to teach us and to warn us.

Now there are those who in reading this will not believe or who may even respond lightly to my story, that of my friend, or my warning but fools mock and they do it at their own risk.

Nope, not mocking in the least, and I don't believe in your response due to personal experience from the mission. What I recognize is a personal opinion being shared as truth. I am at no risk, and I have witnessed the Lord use lucid dreaming to bring individuals into the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The risk is when we personally seek to speak beyond our authority.