Does fear play a role?

[prisonchaplain]

For traditional Christians the fear of hell can be a motivation. As much as heaven is sweet, many will turn to God to escape the flames of hell. We're told this is less true today, but my guess is that this is an initial influence for many. Eternity...in the flames of hell. Scary, frightening stuff. Many non-Christians today find the doctrine of hell abhorrent. Indeed, many churches chose to no longer emphasize it. Some famous teacher ministers have openly said they will not focus on it. One even wrote a book undermining the eternity and literalness of hell--though he would not completely renounce it. My guess is that the doctrine of hell is also partially responsible for the intensity of the debate over Predestination vs. Free Will. So, this doctrine remains an important influence for most Christians--even those who don't like it, or fully agree with it.

LDS teaching seems to be that hell is a small place. Some here have suggested that souls can escape hell if their hearts change. Most souls will end up in one of the lower heavenly realms--places of great blessing. So, does fear play a role in your faith? Fear of missing the Celestial Kingdom? Fear of disappointing God and family, by not achieving your best?

Personally, I would not be surprised if some traditional Christians convert to LDS, in part, because of their moral outrage at the doctrine of eternal hell. For them, and for me, if there is a switch to LDS spirituality, there might be a temptation to relax. What's the worst that can happen? Probably the Terrestial Kingdom, right? Then again, perhaps the ward encouragement for active members is enough to overcome the lack of strong fear of hell?

No real conclusions here...looking for thoughts.

[Lakumi]

I never believed in hell, I always saw it as a tool to make one afraid and join their church. Every Christian church says they are the right one. The LDS church certainly seems to have the nicest afterlife, but all I will bank on is going in the ground, because that is all I know, without a doubt that will happen!

[Bini]

I'm less bothered by the interpretation that hell is a pit of flames and more bothered that it is a place void of love, happiness, and eternal families. While there are things I am confident with in the LDS gospel, there are many things I'm still iffy about, and the afterlife is one of those things. I've come to feel in my gut that we do continue to exist beyond the grave but I cannot say in what state we will be in or where we will reside. I do know that the idea of spending eternity alone, without my husband and daughter, or other loved ones - is a super scary thought! My idea of true hell is being cast into outer darkness (possibly floating around in some realm similar to endless space) by yourself - with nobody with you - no loved ones, no God, no Lucifer - absolutely no one, except yourself, and your memories of your previous existence.

[The Folk Prophet]

For traditional Christians the fear of hell can be a motivation. As much as heaven is sweet, many will turn to God to escape the flames of hell. We're told this is less true today, but my guess is that this is an initial influence for many. Eternity...in the flames of hell. Scary, frightening stuff. Many non-Christians today find the doctrine of hell abhorrent. Indeed, many churches chose to no longer emphasize it. Some famous teacher ministers have openly said they will not focus on it. One even wrote a book undermining the eternity and literalness of hell--though he would not completely renounce it. My guess is that the doctrine of hell is also partially responsible for the intensity of the debate over Predestination vs. Free Will. So, this doctrine remains an important influence for most Christians--even those who don't like it, or fully agree with it.

LDS teaching seems to be that hell is a small place. Some here have suggested that souls can escape hell if their hearts change. Most souls will end up in one of the lower heavenly realms--places of great blessing. So, does fear play a role in your faith? Fear of missing the Celestial Kingdom? Fear of disappointing God and family, by not achieving your best?

Personally, I would not be surprised if some traditional Christians convert to LDS, in part, because of their moral outrage at the doctrine of eternal hell. For them, and for me, if there is a switch to LDS spirituality, there might be a temptation to relax. What's the worst that can happen? Probably the Terrestial Kingdom, right? Then again, perhaps the ward encouragement for active members is enough to overcome the lack of strong fear of hell?

No real conclusions here...looking for thoughts.

LDS teachings on Hell, just as LDS teachings on salvation, are sometimes misunderstood. The word "hell" is used in different ways. In certain cases it does connote only outer darkness, where only those given a sure knowledge of truth who then turn away will go. I don't know how accurate it is to call it a small place though, in that we generally believe that a third of all the hosts of heaven will be there (there is some debate on what "a third" means - a literal third, or a third part/group -- though I find this debate silly and take a third to mean what it seems to mean, as in literally, 1/3 of all of God's spirit children...but I digress....)

In many other places Hell refers to the Telestial Kingdom. And yet again, some places Hell refers to anywhere except the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

LDS theology also promotes the idea that Hell (or damnation, or whatever one wishes to call it) is a relative state. There is only one form of complete salvation in LDS theology. There is only one case where one is given ALL that the Father has. There is only one case where there is no higher way in which one could have been blessed. This being, of course, the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. By comparison, all other states will know that they did not achieve what they could have, and we have been promised that in those other states that we will regret not being given what we could have been given had we been faithful.

As to your point...fear is clearly a motivating factor for anyone who believes the scriptures to mean what they say...and that goes for LDS or other Christian denominations. Promises of punishment for the wicked are blatant and obvious throughout. They are clarified even further in LDS scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon. The Lord uses fear to motivate.

However, we are also taught in LDS theology that fear is not the best motivation. Fear is a better motivation than no motivation, but how much more blessed are those who follow for the right reason, the right reason being Charity/Love. Those who follow God out of fear will be blessed. Those who follow God out of love will be more blessed.

[Guest]

I am certainly afraid of not living up to my potential, and moreso of being separated from my family. I hope to progress to the point that everything I do is out of pure love for my Father and my Savior, but that fear is there right now.

[Lakumi]

I'm less bothered by the interpretation that hell is a pit of flames and more bothered that it is a place void of love, happiness, and eternal families. While there are things I am confident with in the LDS gospel, there are many things I'm still iffy about, and the afterlife is one of those things. I've come to feel in my gut that we do continue to exist beyond the grave but I cannot say in what state we will be in or where we will reside. I do know that the idea of spending eternity alone, without my husband and daughter, or other loved ones - is a super scary thought! My idea of true hell is being cast into outer darkness (possibly floating around in some realm similar to endless space) by yourself - with nobody with you - no loved ones, no God, no Lucifer - absolutely no one, except yourself, and your memories of your previous existence.

As long as my nightmares aren't right then I think the afterlife will be okay for me

[Seminarysnoozer]

For traditional Christians the fear of hell can be a motivation. As much as heaven is sweet, many will turn to God to escape the flames of hell. We're told this is less true today, but my guess is that this is an initial influence for many. Eternity...in the flames of hell. Scary, frightening stuff. Many non-Christians today find the doctrine of hell abhorrent. Indeed, many churches chose to no longer emphasize it. Some famous teacher ministers have openly said they will not focus on it. One even wrote a book undermining the eternity and literalness of hell--though he would not completely renounce it. My guess is that the doctrine of hell is also partially responsible for the intensity of the debate over Predestination vs. Free Will. So, this doctrine remains an important influence for most Christians--even those who don't like it, or fully agree with it.

LDS teaching seems to be that hell is a small place. Some here have suggested that souls can escape hell if their hearts change. Most souls will end up in one of the lower heavenly realms--places of great blessing. So, does fear play a role in your faith? Fear of missing the Celestial Kingdom? Fear of disappointing God and family, by not achieving your best?

Personally, I would not be surprised if some traditional Christians convert to LDS, in part, because of their moral outrage at the doctrine of eternal hell. For them, and for me, if there is a switch to LDS spirituality, there might be a temptation to relax. What's the worst that can happen? Probably the Terrestial Kingdom, right? Then again, perhaps the ward encouragement for active members is enough to overcome the lack of strong fear of hell?

No real conclusions here...looking for thoughts.

Our 13th Article of faith describes our stance in general on this topic. " 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

The question is, can one really follow the admonition of Paul, "hope all things" and be fearful at the same time? For some fear is motivating but we hope to move beyond that and take on the admonition of Paul. In other words, fear may or may not play a role in a person's conversion process but then once a person is really walking down the straight and narrow path it turns to hope with less fear.

[Roseslipper]

For traditional Christians the fear of hell can be a motivation. As much as heaven is sweet, many will turn to God to escape the flames of hell. We're told this is less true today, but my guess is that this is an initial influence for many. Eternity...in the flames of hell. Scary, frightening stuff. Many non-Christians today find the doctrine of hell abhorrent. Indeed, many churches chose to no longer emphasize it. Some famous teacher ministers have openly said they will not focus on it. One even wrote a book undermining the eternity and literalness of hell--though he would not completely renounce it. My guess is that the doctrine of hell is also partially responsible for the intensity of the debate over Predestination vs. Free Will. So, this doctrine remains an important influence for most Christians--even those who don't like it, or fully agree with it.

LDS teaching seems to be that hell is a small place. Some here have suggested that souls can escape hell if their hearts change. Most souls will end up in one of the lower heavenly realms--places of great blessing. So, does fear play a role in your faith? Fear of missing the Celestial Kingdom? Fear of disappointing God and family, by not achieving your best?

Personally, I would not be surprised if some traditional Christians convert to LDS, in part, because of their moral outrage at the doctrine of eternal hell. For them, and for me, if there is a switch to LDS spirituality, there might be a temptation to relax. What's the worst that can happen? Probably the Terrestial Kingdom, right? Then again, perhaps the ward encouragement for active members is enough to overcome the lack of strong fear of hell?

No real conclusions here...looking for thoughts.

I dont think I ever feared hell. But at one time I lost all hope and was living with despire, and that's a darkness I wish for none and to me thats a hell.

There is 3 degrees of glory and there all good, but which degree do u want? Heavenly Father will put us were we would feel comfortable. And we would of earned that glory.

Of course the Celestial Kingdom should be our goal, that's where Heavenly Father and Jesus reign, but even more so we have to make it to excalltation which is the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom to be sealed with our families forever. But remember we will be able to progress in what ever kingdom we get. And we will be happy there.

I guess the sadness would be if we dont make it back home. And to some that might be a sort of hell.

Out of darkness is not a glory.......

The thing is to try to do the best you can always and take the gifts that Heavenly Father and Jesus gave us which is to Repent and get up and do your best. And if we fall again and again get up and try again and again and soon hopefully it will take root. Heavenly Father knew our mortal life would not be easy that's why he developed the plan of salvation. For us all cause he loves us all so much and wants us to have happiness and joy in this life and for the eternties. We are so truly blessed!! The prophets have warned us through out time to keep the commandments we need to get to a point in our lives that we want to do it not out of fear but out of love. I think there's a big difference doing it out of fear or out of love. And it does come I testify of this! The Father has not left us alone, try to get close to the Holy Spirit. And if and when we learn this wow, that in itself will be a blessed miracle for us all....

Keep on trucking..brothers and sisters.:)....I have the Faith that we can all do it. But we have to get to a point that we want too. Some of the tricks I've learned is keep trying don't give up on yourselves. Learn to trust in the Lord!! Not in man!!! And I know it is not easy!!!

With Love your sister xo

Edited March 31, 2014 by Roseslipper

[Lakumi]

I'd be fine with any of the three, they all sound just lovely

[Just_A_Guy]

I like the following:

“[To have Faith in Christ] means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.”

[Traveler]

I am a little hesitant about posting because of possible misunderstanding; However, I have had personal experience with unclean spirits generally understood to inhabit the kingdom of the outcasts (fallen) of heaven. My experience, without question was freighting. The word Hell has meaning incased in death and is directly related to both physical and spiritual death. I do not doubt that spiritual death is hell and that we are experiencing spiritual hell as part of our mortal experience. I also believe that the Gospel or good news is that Christ will deliver us from death and hell. All will be saved and death and hell will give up all that are held in bondage by death and hell.I believe that to know Christ is to know that in the resurrection there is no need to fear death or hell for either ourselves or anyone else.The Traveler

[mnn727]

Never believed in a traditional hell (eternal flames burning you, demons with pitchforks, etc) In fact any God that would send his creations to such a place for losing in 'a game he set up all the rules in' is not worthy of my worship.

[prisonchaplain]

 

Every Christian church says they are the right one.

I gotta quibble with this thought. Most Protestant churches--including evangelical ones--would say Jesus is the way, not any one church. I understand that even Catholics, who believe theirs remains the one Mother Church, do not deny that other Christians will inhabit heaven. LDS are similar in this, arguing that theirs is the true restored church. Nevertheless, they believe heavenly realms await most sincerely religious people.

Perhaps it\'s more accurate to say that every Christian church believes it is \"a right one?\"

[SpiritDragon]

Before I can share my thoughts on fear, I feel I need to do a little bit in the way of definitions.

I just have to say that something about the \"final\" in final judgment sounds pretty official to me. I don\'t believe that anyone can \"escape\" @#!*% after final judgment. In this context @#!*% is referring to outer darkness, while anyone who is not in the highest degree of celestial glory will be in a varying state of damnation (meaning they can not progress infinitely).

@#!*% can also refer to those in spirit prison. This @#!*% is not infinite in duration, but it is everlasting (a name Christ can use) thus any punishment dealt in @#!*% will be fitting as per the Saviour\'s judgment. Those who are repentant can be freed from this @#!*% .

In all contexts of heaven and @#!*% , fear is a motivating factor. I hate the idea of not living up to my potential and being \"left\" behind as it were, while my family progresses on without me. While perfect love casteth out all fear, I don\'t always (or ever?) have perfect love and thus require fear to get me going sometimes.

[The Folk Prophet]

 

Before I can share my thoughts on fear, I feel I need to do a little bit in the way of definitions.

I just have to say that something about the \\\"final\\\" in final judgment sounds pretty official to me. I don\\\'t believe that anyone can \\\"escape\\\" @#!*% after final judgment. In this context @#!*% is referring to outer darkness, while anyone who is not in the highest degree of celestial glory will be in a varying state of damnation (meaning they can not progress infinitely).

@#!*% can also refer to those in spirit prison. This @#!*% is not infinite in duration, but it is everlasting (a name Christ can use) thus any punishment dealt in @#!*% will be fitting as per the Saviour\\\'s judgment. Those who are repentant can be freed from this @#!*% .

In all contexts of heaven and @#!*% , fear is a motivating factor. I hate the idea of not living up to my potential and being \\\"left\\\" behind as it were, while my family progresses on without me. While perfect love casteth out all fear, I don\\\'t always (or ever?) have perfect love and thus require fear to get me going sometimes.

 

Heheh. Not being able to use the word hell on a religious forum is...well...interesting.

[Guest]

There is this thing called God-fearing that is mentioned several times in scripture.

Whether hell is eternal flames and suffering or a nothingness or whatever does not matter. That\\\'s not what we should fear. I am God-fearing in that I fear that I\\\'m going to displease God who I love. It\\\'s a magnified version of my fear of displeasing my Father when I come home with failing marks from school. So, I get straight A\\\'s. Yes, now that I\\\'m out of school and I\\\'m reaping the benefits of being an excellent student, I can say that I should have just concentrated on getting A\\\'s for myself instead of my dad. But, as I was going to school not really seeing what all this studying and test taking is going to do for me, I did it mostly because I love my dad and I know he would be very disappointed in me if I don\\\'t come home with an A... How much more for God... Hell is so small a thing to be fearful of compared to my fear of displeasing God.

[Lakumi]

I guess I never understood it like that since my parents always told me I would never be a dissapointment to them, so there for I got an additude of \"if someone loves me then they can\'t be dissapointed in me\"

I never felt I could displease God, because how could I really know what it wants?

Eh its early-something to ponder.

[Dravin]

I guess I never understood it like that since my parents always told me I would never be a dissapointment to them, so there for I got an additude of \\\\\\\"if someone loves me then they can\\\\\\\'t be dissapointed in me\\\\\\\"I never felt I could displease God, because how could I really know what it wants?Eh its early-something to ponder.

I know that parents like the say things like that, and in the contexts such statements are delivered it is probably honestly meant, but fundamentally for your parents to literally be incapable of being disappointed in you means they have no expectations of you. That\'s arguably a good thing if we\'re talking about the size of your salary, or the genres of music you may listen to, or if you are good at playing sports, or if your 3rd grade art project rivals famous artists on merit. It\'s quite arguably bad if we\'re talking about murdering homeless people under the overpass as it means your parents either have really low expectations for you (we can\'t really expect Lakumi to not murder homeless people), of their parenting (we never really taught him not to murder homeless people so how can we expect him not to do such?), or they think murdering homeless people just ain\'t no thang.

[Guest]

 

I guess I never understood it like that since my parents always told me I would never be a dissapointment to them, so there for I got an additude of \\\"if someone loves me then they can\\\'t be dissapointed in me\\\"I never felt I could displease God, because how could I really know what it wants?Eh its early-something to ponder.

 

It is completely different to be a disappointment to your parents as opposed to them being disappointed with something you\'ve done. It is the same difference with saying \"You are stupid.\" and \"You just did a very stupid thing.\".

Your parents may be different in the way they feel when you do something stupid due to your autism but most parents will be disappointed, even hurt, when they see their children doing something far below their potential.

So, how could you know what God wants? Well, that\'s why you gain a testimony of Christ\'s teachings. Because, the entire gospel is all about what God wants for us. Of course, if you don\'t believe in those teachings then yes, you can\'t possibly know what God wants - and I would think it wouldn\'t matter anyway because you don\'t believe in it.

[The Folk Prophet]

 

So, how could you know what God wants? Well, that\\\'s why you gain a testimony of Christ\\\'s teachings. Because, the entire gospel is all about what God wants for us. Of course, if you don\\\'t believe in those teachings then yes, you can\\\'t possibly know what God wants - and I would think it wouldn\\\'t matter anyway because you don\\\'t believe in it.

 

Except that belief is a choice, seeking God is a choice, listening for the promptings of the spirit is a choice, and knowing what God wants, therefore, is a choice. So I disagree on \"it wouldn\'t matter\". It matters a great deal.

[Traveler]

 

 

I gotta quibble with this thought. Most Protestant churches--including evangelical ones--would say Jesus is the way, not any one church. I understand that even Catholics, who believe theirs remains the one Mother Church, do not deny that other Christians will inhabit heaven. LDS are similar in this, arguing that theirs is the true restored church. Nevertheless, they believe heavenly realms await most sincerely religious people.

Perhaps it\\\'s more accurate to say that every Christian church believes it is \\\"a right one?\\\"

 

I believe this is a problem. The church is not just a collection of ideas to help guide is through this life. I believe that we all can see errors in the church we attend. Including a lot of \"short coming\" with individuals in position of authority. In a fallen state, we humans are flawed and even when supported by G-d we will sin - even in our spiritual quest both for ourselves and in our efforts to help others.

I would like to say I have figured out this whole \"church\" thing but there are problems - I am not talking about doctrine. I am not talking about leaders making mistakes. I am not talking so much about doubts. I am talking about my self and good people I have encountered - both within my church, other churches or not associated with a church. That we all struggle seeking enlightenment. Not just so we can be smart but to solve complex injustice both now and when we will inevitably die - and not just for ourselves but those we love and care about. I say we love but mostly I am talking about those we interface with - even if it is just this forum.

In science I know how to deal with this dilemma by gathering empirical evidence and working through peer reviews. But the things of G-d have no if any empirical evidence and it seems as though any collection of peers only results in some degree of confusion, disagreement and disunity. To be honest these are to me more the elements of hell than of heaven which even in scripture is characterized as unity, oneness and a coming together.

I am LDS not so much because of doctrine - which is really nifty and astonishing easy to argue. I am LDS because I do not see any other church enlist it members at the offset of their beginning membership into the rigors of service. Not for the success of the LDS church which obviously suffers greatly from the mistakes of putting (in some case idiots) in charge of important things and other members. BTW I am often one of those idiots. But the LDS enlists everyone into engaging in family as the important vehicle to eternity even before the importance of \"the Church\". The family is not just our little mom, dad and kids but a family that includes all humans that were, are or will be.

To be honest it is this gimps of family heaven that keeps me going and dreaming that this hell we live in that confuses everybody into thinking of their individual heaven will someday come to an end.

[Lakumi]

 

  

It is completely different to be a disappointment to your parents as opposed to them being disappointed with something you\\\'ve done. It is the same difference with saying \\\"You are stupid.\\\" and \\\"You just did a very stupid thing.\\\".

Your parents may be different in the way they feel when you do something stupid due to your autism but most parents will be disappointed, even hurt, when they see their children doing something far below their potential.

So, how could you know what God wants? Well, that\\\'s why you gain a testimony of Christ\\\'s teachings. Because, the entire gospel is all about what God wants for us. Of course, if you don\\\'t believe in those teachings then yes, you can\\\'t possibly know what God wants - and I would think it wouldn\\\'t matter anyway because you don\\\'t believe in it.

I have a strange set of beliefs, the LDS church has given me many good things-and I thank it for that. I joke here and there-as I do with everything-but I am capable of serious thought lol

[Blackmarch]

I think once anyone starts to recognize sin and it's seriousness (and have any desire to return to God) I think there will always be fear at some point.

[Finrock]

I reject the idea that Heavenly Father feels disappointment when we fail. For Heavenly Father to be disappointed assumes that God expected or thought something besides the failure would occur. Heavenly Father knew and He knows that we will fail. That we fail isn't a surprise to Him. It isn't something that keeps Him up at night (figuratively speaking). 

 

Heavenly Father knows the beginning from the end. We are here to work out our salvation. Heavenly Father desires for us nothing but the best. He provided a Savior precisely because He knew we would fail, no matter what effort we put in, we would fall short.

 

What God truly wants is for us to repent when we have sinned. He is saddened when we don't repent but only because He desires for us nothing but for us to have joy. He isn't saddened because He expected us to measure up and we didn't. We don't and never will measure up. We truly are nothing.

 

We experience hell when we are living in sin. Hell is being separated from God. There are degrees of hell just as there are degrees of salvation. The more we live and revel in sin the less joy and peace we will experience. We can find pleasure in sin but not happiness or peace.

 

Once we realize what hell is (living in sin) and how we can overcome hell by relying on the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, we will not have fear. Fear only comes when we lack faith and hope. Fear of damnation will enter in to the heart of the sinner because they are incapable of seeing and recognizing the hope and joy that comes from living the gospel and relying on the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ. This fear that is felt by the rebellious can lead them to repent when they are finally humbled or humble themselves and realize that they can't live this life without God.

 

I am a sinner yet I am not fearful of hell and damnation because I have faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I have faith that God is aware of my weaknesses and He doesn't expect me to live a sinless life. As long as my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite then my failures will be met with mercy, understanding, compassion, and love by God. And when I repent He will forgive me.

 

-Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

I am a sinner yet I am not fearful of hell and damnation because I have faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I have faith that God is aware of my weaknesses and He doesn't expect me to live a sinless life. As long as my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite then my failures will be met with mercy, understanding, compassion, and love by God. And when I repent He will forgive me.

 

-Finrock

 

I overall get and like your post, but I do think that such a philosophy needs to be carefully understood. To "not worry about sin" in an apathetic, God-will-beat me-with-a-few-stripes, kind of approach is extremely dangerous. I do not think this is what you mean by saying what you're saying, but I thought it wise to respond just in case someone reads such a thought into it.

 

In point of fact, I think it contradictory to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit and to also have any sort of nonchalance concerning sin and behavior. A broken heart and a contrite spirit leads to every possible effort to obey. And if we find ourselves short of that obedience, we immediately regret and alter our behavior as best as possible (repent).

 

Once again, to be clear, I do not think you nonchalant about sin. Just wanted to clarify the idea.